What does 道(Tao, tao) mean chapter by chapter.....?

[adept]

This question has been asked thousands of times before and turns into a quasi-intellectual ego-fest.

 

I did warn you all......

[Marblehead]

There is no Tao in this Chapter from the original classic. This chapter was mistranslated by Mitchell.

 

It should read....

Heaven and Earth ................sides;

Hey, I'm not allowed to change what he wrote. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

God is an interesting concept. Can there be such a thing as God with no religeon attached to it? Can God be what we call "I"? If the "I" conciousness and the "God" conciousness are sitting in the same place, manifesting, fulfilling, and recognizing the existence of all things (the 10000 things) what does this say of the "I" nature, and what real power is inherent in this?

 

I am begining to think that Tao is just the begininning of a more comprehensive understanding.

I know a few people who equate God with a concept they call "universal consciousness" or something to that effect. Most of these folks would easily be classified as Pantheists. They don't want to hold to the dogma of religions but yet they don't want to give up their concept of God (a First Creator).

Edited December 28, 2012 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

I did warn you all......

That's okay. I enjoy this kind of stuff as long as we can keep our emotions out of it so that the disagreements don't become personal.

[dawei]

thank dawei. its a quote from his link. i asked you for an example and you didnt give one.

Hinton is one of the few translator's who uses "Way" for every instance of Dao. I have not tested his entire writing to say if he uses it as a verb or not but this gives an example of what the OP wanted; Dao as Way.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20110106072526/http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Hinton_TTK.html

[ChiDragon]

Hey, I'm not allowed to change what he wrote. Hehehe.

 

Hey, we must allow room for corrections and use the best source there is.

 

Mr. MH, please tell me what do you think about Chapter 41. What do you think Tao is here....???

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I did warn you all......

 

I am well aware of that a bunch of amateurs will screw this up......

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hey, we must allow room for corrections and use the best source there is.

 

Hehehe. You know I have no problem doing that with you. I suppose that if we look hard enough we can find flaws in any translation. And if you remember, I have mentioned that I find flaws even in Henricks' translation.

 

Mr. MH, please tell me what do you think about Chapter 41. What do you think Tao is here....???

 

Interesting, this one.

 

Line 1 (still and will always be with Mitchell in this thread):

 

When a superior man hears of the Tao

 

I think that this is referring to hearing of the 'way' (cause and effect) and characteristics of Tao. Likewise with the next two usages.

 

However, the last line, first section:

 

it wouldn't be the Tao.

 

is referencing the Great Tao.

 

Likewise in the first line, third section::

 

The Tao is nowhere to be found.

 

So here too we have only noun usage.

 

However, in the first section, if the word Tao were translated as "Way" as does Henricks, I think a strong arguement could be made that it is a verb because we would be talking about the processes, of Tao.

[Marblehead]

I am well aware of that a bunch of amateurs will screw this up......

That wasn't a fair thing to say about me.

 

Edited December 28, 2012 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

That wasn't a fair thing to say about me.

 

 

Who say it was you....??? You are the best here....

[Marblehead]

You are the best here....

Hehehe. Well, I do try but even I wouldn't go that far. I might break my arm patting myself on the back.

[ChiDragon]

1. John Wu

When a wise scholar hears the Tao,

He practices it diligently.

 

2. English/Feng

The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.

 

3. Robert Henricks

When the highest type of men hear the Way, with diligence they’re able to practice it;

 

Just to be fair, I'll use these three translations for an analysis.

In these three translations, the key word is "practice". That leads to the question was is 道 here if we have to translate it into English...???

 

Scenario #1

If 道 was translated as Tao with a capitol T, then 道 is a proper noun.

 

Suppose we replace "Tao" with Joe in the first line. It would not make any sense at all, isn't it...???

When a wise scholar hears the Joe,

He practices it diligently.

 

Scenario #2

If 道 was translated as "tao" with a small t, then 道 can be translated as the "principle of Tao" linguistically in the Chinese language.

 

Therefore, we have a good and proper translation as:

When a wise scholar hears the "principle of Tao",

He practices it diligently.

 

In Chapter 41, as written in Classic, the 道 is the principle of Tao.

 

Scenario #3

3. Robert Henricks

When the highest type of men hear the Way, with diligence they’re able to practice it;

 

However, if "Way" was used for 道, then it doesn't has the significant meaning of the "principle of Tao" in the context as in Scenario #2.

 

Edited:

Changed the word "does" to "doesn't" in Scenario #3.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Good analysis Dragon. You do know that you are getting very close to discrediting your statement that "Tao is always a noun", don't you? Once you change "principles of Tao" to "processes of Tao" you will have done it. Getting so close to Tzujan. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Since when did I say that Tao is always a Noun...???

[Marblehead]

Since when did I say that Tao is always a Noun...???

Okay, I too will forget that you said that. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Here is a good one for you; tell me about Tao in Chapter 25. Then Chapter 77.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Here is a good one for you; tell me about Tao in Chapter 25.

Yes, not only a good one but also one with which one must be careful lest one create a God.

 

Mitchell:

 

Line 1&2, There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born.

 

Important word: something. A pronoun.

 

Line 7. It is the mother of the universe.

 

Noun. But if we said: "It mothered the universe." we would have a verb.

 

Line 20. The Tao follows only itself.

 

Tao - noun; follows - verb. Itself - pronoun - implying thingness.

 

For me, in order to prevent the creation of a God, I rely on science. That is, before the Big Bang there was Singularity. So far science is unable to define Singularity. In fact, there were no things, only pure energy. Creation of things was not until after the Big Bang so in reality there were no nouns prior to the Big Bang. And furthermore, there was no "... someting ... before the universe was born."

 

Yep. This is where Tzujan enter the stage. Self-becoming. From no thing (energy) to the beginning of the processes which is Tao; processes being verbs.

 

(Hehehe. I need to be tested on my logic on this one.)

[dwai]

There are many Chapters in the Tao Te Chine was describing Tao. Chapter 1 has a good start, what other chapters that have descriptions of Tao and would you like to quote them....???

 

Chapter 1:

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

 

If you would like to call Tao as the "way", then what is your justification.....???

 

Read the book "nine nights with a Taoist master" by master waysun Liao to better understand it.

[Marblehead]

Then Chapter 77.

Okay. Last one for today.

 

Line 1. As it acts in the world, tha Tao

 

Obviously a noun here.

 

However,

 

Lines 9 - 11

Those who try to control,

who use force to protect their power,

go against the direction of the Tao.

 

Here we can argue that it is a verb as we are talking about it being a movement in a direction. But then, we could argue that it is a direction of the movement (verb) of the Tao (noun).

[ChiDragon]

Yes, not only a good one but also one with which one must be careful lest one create a God.

 

Mitchell:

 

Line 1&2, There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born.

 

Important word: something. A pronoun.

 

Line 7 6. It is the mother of the universe.

 

Noun. But if we said: "It mothered the universe." we would have a verb.

 

Line 20. The Tao follows only itself.

 

Tao - noun; follows - verb. Itself - pronoun - implying thingness.

 

For me, in order to prevent the creation of a God, I rely on science. That is, before the Big Bang there was Singularity. So far science is unable to define Singularity. In fact, there were no things, only pure energy. Creation of things was not until after the Big Bang so in reality there were no nouns prior to the Big Bang. And furthermore, there was no "... someting ... before the universe was born."

 

Yep. This is where Tzujan enter the stage. Self-becoming. From no thing (energy) to the beginning of the processes which is Tao; processes being verbs.

 

(Hehehe. I need to be tested on my logic on this one.)

 

Mitchell:

1. There was something formless and perfect

2. before the universe was born.

3. It is serene. Empty.

4. Solitary. Unchanging.

5. Infinite. Eternally present.

6. It is the mother of the universe(It may be the mother of the heaven and earth).

7. For lack of a better name,

8. I call it the Tao.

 

20. The universe follows the Tao.

 

Note: Heaven and Earth maybe translated as the universe.

 

CD:

1. There was a thing formed by chaos;

2. Before the sky and earth were born;

3. Soundless and formless;

4. Independent but unchangeable;

5. Moving but never fatigue;

6. It may be the mother of the heaven and earth(可以為天地母).

7. I don't know its name.

8. I have to call it Tao.

 

22.Tao follows its own nature.

 

My evaluations....

1. "Tao - noun; follows - verb. Itself - pronoun - implying thingness."

Yes,Tao implying "thingness". By Loa Tze's description in Chapter 1, Tao was also implying as invisible thingness(無, Wu).

 

2. "there was no "... someting ... before the universe was born."

I would rephrase this as:

"there was no "... something was formed... before the universe was born."

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Okay. Last one for today.

 

Line 1. As it acts in the world, tha Tao

 

Obviously a noun here.

 

However,

 

Lines 9 - 11

Those who try to control,

who use force to protect their power,

go against the direction of the Tao.

 

Here we can argue that it is a verb as we are talking about it being a movement in a direction. But then, we could argue that it is a direction of the movement (verb) of the Tao (noun).

 

I will give you an 'F' for this one. Why did you use Mitchell's mistranslation instead of Wu, Feng and Hendricks....??? Mitchell was way off basis.

[Protector]

Why is this thread out of Chinese language forum?

[ChiDragon]

It is because the Tao Te Ching belongs to the Taoist Discussion Forum.

[Protector]

Still the wrong forum

[ChiDragon]

Now you tell us....!!!