What does 道(Tao, tao) mean chapter by chapter.....?

[Protector]

SINFEST ALWAYS DELIVERS

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jV80PFC_X8

 

 

AND KNOW WHAT, KIDS? IT'S AN ADJECTIVE!!!!!

AND KNOW HOW IT BROADENS YOUR PERSPECTIVE ABOUT TAOISM? THE SAME WAY A NOUN OR A VERB WOULD

 

Whenever someone gets into Taoism, they want to know what Tao is. No one is going to explain it because the adept has to figure it out on their own. In Tao Te Ching the Tao is constantly being used in a sentences without a clear explanation because it's already expected to be know from the reader. It's not a new thing to be learned from a book but a force of nature that needs to be recognized by the reader. I left this thread sit for a while because I thought that's what it was about

BUT NOOOOOOOOOO

Before you get to understand and experience Tao, YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE PROPER GRAMMAR!!!!!!!!

[ChiDragon]

Okay, but this sort of determines it's use and meaning as a verb, it seems.

 

In line 1, Chapter 1. Tao was used as a noun twice and a verb once.

1. 道(n)可道(v)，非常道(n)。

 

1. Tao(n) that can be spoken(v) is not the eternal Tao(n).

 

The first and the last Tao are the same Tao.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I've never seen Tao being used to say spoken, yet almost every chapter has a part that says "this is called..." and they never say "this is Dao-ed such and such."

 

Are there other examples that use "Dao" to mean "spoken" on which you base this understanding?

Edited December 30, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

I've never seen Tao being used to say spoken, yet almost every chapter has a part that says "this is called..." and they never say "this is Dao-ed such and such."

They are the words and samples were used for the explanation. They are classic. Just learn the meanings and keep them in mind. It takes a little time to digest. Something that you are not familiar with doesn't mean that don't exist.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

They are the words and samples were used for the explanation. They are classic.

 

Sorry, used for who's explanation?

 

Classic doesn't always mean correct, of course.

 

I can see that most interpretations went this way as few people, East or West, were really sure what to make of the literal words Dao ke Dao. However, Cleary and Red Pine do add some clout to putting it differently.

[ChiDragon]

Are there other examples that use "Dao" to mean "spoken" on which you base this understanding?

 

常言道: As they say

Dao to mean spoken

[Harmonious Emptiness]

and in a stroke of great timing, Chapter 18 from the Hua Hu Ching came up in another topic (merci belle Deci!)

 

as I said earlier:

 

I'm thinking maybe Tao ke tao is meaning something like the "the path that can be followed" as in "the trail that can be trailed is not the lasting trail."

 

...

the trail that is followed, ie., the finite understanding of nature does not stand the test of time. To understand Dao, one must be free of conceptual thinking and know in the heart. If they try to create a finite trail, it will not lead to Dao, but to dead ends.

 

Thus, the trail that is marked out and followed is not the enduring path. The true path is without such linear thinking and behaviours. As soon as you create a trail and follow it expecting to find Dao, you miss the truth surrounding you and only see the end of that trail

...

 

[Did a search and came upon some support to this idea]

 

Cleary A way can be a guide, but not a fixed path

Hansen To guide what can be guided is not constant guiding

Lindauer A tao that one can tao Is not the entire tao

Muller The Tao that can be followed is not the eternal Tao.

Red Pine The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way

 

 

Hilarious that I had never read the following until just now:

 

Hua Hu Ching

Chapter Eighteen:

 

There is no one method for attaining realization of the Tao. To regard any

method as the method is to create a duality, which can only delay your

understanding of the subtle truth. The mature person perceives the fruitlessness

of rigid, external methodologies; Remembering this, he keeps his attitude

unstructured at all times and thus is always free to pursue the Integral Way. He

studies the teachings of the masters. He dissolves all concepts of duality. He

pours himself out in service to others. He performs his inner cleansing and does

not disturb his teacher with unnecessary entanglements, thus preserving the

subtle spiritual connection with the teacher's divine energy. Gently eliminating

all obstacles to his own understanding, he constantly maintains his

unconditional sincerity. His humility, perseverance, and adaptability evoke the

response of the universe and fill him with divine light.

 

 

Come on now, am I still not building a good enough argument for this case?

[ChiDragon]

Come on now, am I still not building a good enough argument for this case?

 

I give up with your fixed mixture of thoughts. Sorry, I cannot help you anymore.

[Protector]

What was that quote again? "If you win an argument, you didn't learn anything"

[Harmonious Emptiness]

常言道: As they say

Dao to mean spoken

 

lol, yeah "常ordinarily 言said 道in this way"

 

Seems you don't want to admit that you can't find another sentence where Dao means "say," so you gave me a sentence with "言say" and Dao in it instead.

 

This is too much, but funny at the same time.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What was that quote again? "If you win an argument, you didn't learn anything"

 

Well, there's winning for not loosing, and then there's winning for bringing the truth to light in spite of resistance.

[ChiDragon]

lol, yeah "常ordinarily 言said 道in this way"

 

Seems you don't want to admit that you can't find another sentence where Dao means "say," so you gave me a sentence with "言say" and Dao in it instead.

 

This is too much, but funny at the same time.

 

Sorry, you are just not familiar enough with the language that you are trying to learn. I speak the language more than sixty years; it is more funnier that you are laughing at me.....

 

 

Classic doesn't always mean correct, of course.

 

Am I getting the impression that you are more knowledgeable with the Classic before you really understand it. IMO If you cant get over the hurdle with the definitions of "Tao", then, you are 10,000+++ miles away from it.

 

 

Edited to give you a freebee...

常言: the proverb

道 say

 

"常言"道: the proverb says.

Edited December 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The usage of "Tao" seems changing its pace, completely, in Chapter 46 is very interesting.

 

 

Mr. Marblehead....

Are still with me before we get carried away again....????

[ChiDragon]

ME...

 

I'll give you a freebee...

常言: the proverb

道 say

 

"常言"道: the proverb says.

[Marblehead]

Mr. Marblehead....

Are still with me before we get carried away again....????

Yes, I am still here. I did have to go get some sleep though. You guys did a bang up job trying to understand each other. Didn't work but still.

 

Hehehe. Who wins if the win is meaningless? I think all lose.

 

But yes, the central theme of this thread is where is the word "Tao" used as a noun and where is it used as a verb.

 

And Sinfest was right, IMO, when he said it could also be an adjective.

 

Sad that Chapter 1 is not in the Guodian.

 

However, Henricks' translation reads:

 

1. As for the Way, the Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way;

2. As for names, the name that can be named is not the constant name.

 

So, is Line 1. saying: "As for the Tao, the Tao that can be Taoed is not the constant Tao"?

 

In Englist that would just be too confusing. "Taoed" must be translated/interpretted as "spoken of" in order for the sentence to make sense. But then, Line 2. would 'feel' better if "named" were "spoken of" as well.

 

But anyhow, if we accept Henricks' usage of "Way" instead of "Tao" one thing I hear in the background is that things change: we define it as such in this moment and the next moment it has changed so it is not 'that' anymore. And as a result the names too will change because the previous name no longer defines what it has become.

 

The same problem exists when I try to define what "I" am. I too am constantly changing so what "I" was two minutes ago no longer accurately defines what "I" am now.

 

Anyhow, I think we were going to talk about Chapter 46 but not sure so I will go back to look and then present Mitchell's usage of "Tao" in that chapter.

[Marblehead]

Yes, it is Chapter 46. An interesting translation. I will post the entire chapter and then get back to the usage of the word "Tao".

 

When a country is in harmony with the Tao,

the factories make trucks and tractors.

When a country goes counter to the Tao,

warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

 

There is no greater illusion than fear,

no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,

no greater misfortune than having an enemy.

 

Whoever can see through all fear

will always be safe.

 

Wasn't it just yesterday that I was speaking to this concept? Of fear?

 

Anyhow, the clearest picture, for me, is presented in the first section if we replace the word "Tao" with "the processes of Nature".

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that the processes of Nature are always peaceful. There is violence in Nature, acts that are needed in order to re-establish harmony. But these acts are rare compared to the times when there is no violence.

 

However, if we accept the interpretation that "Tao" refers to "the processes of Nature" then, IMO, both usages would be verb.

[dawei]

However, if we accept the interpretation that "Tao" refers to "the processes of Nature" then, IMO, both usages would be verb.

 

Ni is another who uses "Way" or another variation fairly consistently for Dao (or implied Dao):

 

Ch. 1:

Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described.

 

 

Ch. 4:

The subtle Way of the universe appears to lack strength,

 

 

Ch. 6:

The subtle essence of the universe is active.

 

Ch. 9:

This is the Universal Way of a life of deep virtue

 

Ch. 15:

The ancient ones who knew how to live with the subtle essence of the universe were gentle and flexible, profound and indistinguishable.

 

 

Ch. 46:

When the people of the world live in accord with the subtle Way of the universe,

horses are used for agricultural purposes.

 

----

 

So he does not simply exchange 'Way' but describes something more about the 'Way'.

 

 

Source:

http://web.archive.o...ish_Ni_TTK.html

Edited December 30, 2012 by dawei

[Marblehead]

So he does not simply exchange 'Way' but describes something more about the 'Way'.

 

Yes, and I do like the way the word "subtle" is used. Also the word "subtle" would link to the concept of wu wei.

 

Ch. 15:

The ancient ones who knew how to live with the subtle essence of the universe were gentle and flexible, profound and indistinguishable.

And I needed to comment to this regarding the use of the word "flexible" instead of "weak", so much better.

[ChiDragon]

When a country is in harmony with the Tao,

The right idea was there; but it is not the closest translation.

 

 

1. 天下有道，

1. The world under benevolent ruling,

 

The key in this phrase, we do not look at the character 道 individually but compounded with 有. Indeed, that is how we make Tao Into an adjective. BTW This is why I have selected this chapter because a comment made by Sinfest.

 

Let's look at this compound characters.....

有道(adjective): has tao(lower case t); has principles(of Tao)

 

The requires to apply a little logic in the thinking of the reader. Let's say someone who has 道(tao) which has the principles of Tao. The one who has the principles was regarded as a virtuous person. Finally, a virtuous person do virtuous things. If people wants a good ruler, then, most definitely they want a virtuous person to lead them.

 

If a country was ruled by a virtuous person, then, most definitely the country was under benevolent ruling(有道). To put it into context, we have:

 

1. 天下有道，

1. The world(天下) was under benevolent ruling(有道),

Edited December 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

1. 天下有道，

1. The world under benevolent ruling,

Yes, my logical mind tells me that this is the closest meaning but as I don't read Chinese I have no other justification other than my logical thinking.

 

And again (off topic) I believe that were a society need a ruler (remember I am pro-anarchist) a benevolent dictator would be the best type of ruler, one who has Tao.

[Marblehead]

Just bumping this. I am enjoying the discussions but I'm not just going to talk to myself.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, my logical mind tells me that this is the closest meaning but as I don't read Chinese I have no other justification other than my logical thinking.

 

And again (off topic) I believe that were a society need a ruler (remember I am pro-anarchist) a benevolent dictator would be the best type of ruler, one who has Tao.

 

 

...............but I'm not just going to talk to myself.

 

hehehehe.........

Of course you are right, that was only my acceptance in silence.

Edited December 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

How about given Chapter 30 a try....???

[Marblehead]

How about given Chapter 30 a try....???

There. That feels better. Thanks.

[Marblehead]

Mitchell as always unles otherwise indicated: Chapter 30, Line 1.

 

Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men

 

Then Lines 9-12

 

He understands that the universe

is forever out of control,

and that trying to dominate events

goes against the current of the Tao.

 

IMO, Line 1 is, without a doubt, a noun. And hard as I try I cannot find reason to suggest that it is used as a verb in Line 12.

 

(The differences between Mitchell and Henricks of this chapter makes them appear to be two different chapters. Hehehe.)

 

Henricks uses "Way" three times in this chapter. The first usage is in the noun form but arguably be verb in the second and third usages.