What does 道(Tao, tao) mean chapter by chapter.....?

[ChiDragon]

Mitchell as always unles otherwise indicated: Chapter 30, Line 1.

1. Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men

12. goes against the current of the Tao.

 

 

Robert Henricks

1. Those who assist their rulers with the Way,

2. We called this "not the Way."

3. What is not the Way will come to an early end.

 

 

Classic

1. 以道佐人主者，

2. 是謂不道，

3. 不道早已。

 

CD:

1. Those who were using the tao to assist a ruler,

2. It was said to be not conforming with the tao.

3. If it was not conforming with the tao, then, it will come to an early end.

 

Note:

1. tao(n): the principles of Tao.

2. 不道(bu dao): not conforming with the principles of Tao.

3. These lines are individual translations for analysis only, thus they maybe out of context.

4. All definitions of compound characters require grokking to get to their finalize meanings.

Edited December 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

CD:

1. Those who were using the tao to assist a ruler,

2. It was said to be not conforming with the tao.

3. If it was not conforming with the tao, then, it will come to an early end.

Interesting, your translation. (Noting that you used lower case "t" in the word "tao".) Let's replace your word "tao" with the phrase "processes of nature" and see what happens.

 

1. Those who were using the processes of nature to assist a ruler,

2. It was said to be not conforming with the processes of nature.

3. If it was not conforming with the processes of nature, then, it will come to an early end.

 

(Almost sounds like we are talking about "Tzujan", not "Tao".)

[ChiDragon]

Here is my counter offer.

1. Those who were using the principles of Tao to assist a ruler,

2. It was said to be not conforming with the principles of Tao.

3. If it was not conforming with the principles of Tao, then, it will come to an early end.

 

In the TTC, Lao Tze was emphasized on the principles of Tao rather than the process of Tao. Zi Ren(自然) was only a background in his Tao philosophy. If Zi Ren was applied to rule the people, then it means no action will be taken upon the people. As oppose to using the principles of Tao, it will lead the people to a certain ideal condition in an orderly manner; and Zi Ren will just let the people be. As a result, they may be disorganized and out of order.

Edited December 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Fair offer. I have no problem with it.

 

We are still talking about action verbs and not the noun "Tao".

[ChiDragon]

Mr. Marblehead...

Would you like to try Chapter 32 with Michell's fabricated story....???

Edited December 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Mr. Marblehead...

Would you to try Chapter 32 with Michell's fabricated story....???

Hehehe. I like the way you submitted that request.

 

Okay, yes, but nicely fabricated.

 

Line 1. The Tao can't be perceived (Noun)

 

Line 4 - 6 If powerful men and women

could remain centered in the Tao, (Noun)

all things would be in harmony.

 

Line 16 - 17 All things end in the Tao (Noun)

as rivers flow into the sea.

 

I won't comment further but perhaps we can include your translation and then Henricks' translation to see if we can question my declaring all three as nouns?

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 32

道常無名。

樸雖小天下莫能臣也。

侯王若能守之，

萬物將自賓。

天地相合以降甘露，

民莫之令而自均。

始制有名，

名亦既有，

夫亦將知止，

知止可以不殆。

譬道之在天下，

猶川谷之於江海。

 

There are only two "Tao" in the original classic.

1. 道常無名。

2. 譬道之在天下，猶川谷之於江海。

 

John Wu

1. Tao is always nameless.

2. The Tao is to the world what a great river or an ocean is to the streams and brooks.

 

English/Feng

The Tao is forever undefined.

Tao in the world is like a river flowing home to the sea.

 

Robert Henricks

1. The Dao is constantly nameless.

2. All things end in the Tao (Noun) as rivers flow into the sea.

 

CD

1. Tao is always nameless.

2. If Tao was similized, in the world, then it is analogous to the streams and creeks flowing into a river and ocean.

 

Tao is a noun in these two lines and both are the same Tao with consistency.

Edited December 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Tao is a noun in these two lines and both are the same Tao with consistency.

Agree.

 

Hehehe. You got pretty wordy with your translation.

[ChiDragon]

Hehehe. You got pretty wordy with your translation.

 

2. 譬道之在天下，猶川谷之於江海。

2. If Tao was similized, in the world, then it is analogous to the streams and creeks flowing into a river and ocean.

 

Since some of you are good English speakers, how would you simplify it without loosing the complete thought....???

Edited January 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 53 is a good one; 道(tao) has a different meaning.

[Marblehead]

2. 譬道之在天下，猶川谷之於江海。

2. If Tao was similized, in the world, then it is analogous to the streams and creeks flowing into a river and ocean.

 

Since some of you are good English speakers, how would you simplify it without loosing the complete thought....???

You know I can't do that as I do not read Chinese. The best I could do would be to compare it with someone else's and that wouldn't be fair.

 

Yes, your thought is complete. (But wordy. Hehehe.)

Edited January 1, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

Chapter 53 is a good one; 道(tao) has a different meaning.

Mitchell:

 

Line 1. The great Way is easy.

 

Line 4. Stay centered within the Tao.

 

Line 12. It is not in keeping with the Tao.

 

In line 1. I would suggest that the word "easy" indicates that "Way" is a verb.

 

The two usages of "Tao" are for sure nouns.

 

Edit to add: I would say that Mitchell did a good job with these three lines.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

Original Classic

1. 使我介然有知，

2. 行於大道，

3. 唯施是畏。

4. 大道甚夷，

5. 而人好徑。

.

.

.

13. 是謂盜夸。

14. 非道也哉。

 

CD's translation:

1. If I have a little bit of knowledge,

2. Then walking on a big road.

3. I'm afraid that I might be going into a wrong direction.

4. The big road is leveled;

5. But the people, still, would like to take a small trail.

.

.

.

13. They are considered to be bandits.

14. This is not tao at all.

 

Analysis:

In lines 2 & 4, the proper translation for 大道(noun) is "big road" instead of the "big way".

In lines 14, 道(tao, noun) is the "principles of Tao".

Edited January 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Analysis:

In lines 2 & 4, the proper translation for 大道(noun) is "big road" instead of the "big way".

In lines 14, 道(tao, noun) is the "principles of Tao".

Okay, I peeked at Henricks' and his Line 1 (2) is a noun also.

[Owledge]

ChiDragon, how can you read the Tao Te Ching and still ask the question "What is Tao?"? Don't you realize the absurdity?

Didn't even Lao Tzu say that he just used that name to give it a name and that it's of no relevance?

This thread is nine pages long now, looks like intellectual jerking off. But it's all fine. It's what the mind does when confronted with stuff like this. It goes on and on and on, driving itself crazy. Stop the obsession trying to understand what Tao is, then it's easier to follow it.

Could be that during one of my ayahuasca trips, the universe tried to show me what the Tao is, and because I tried to understand, it scared the living shit out of me.

 

You could as well try to intellectually grasp the concept of infinity or timelessness.

 

Stare at the real face of God for too long and you will lose your mind. (and not in a good way, haha)

God is Cthulhu!

Edited January 1, 2013 by Owledge

[ChiDragon]

Owledge.....

"Didn't even Lao Tzu say that he just used that name to give it a name and that it's of no relevance?"

If you took that literally, then, you had missed the whole point. I granted you that Loa Tze said Tao is indescribable in the first chapter. However, did you see what he did...??? He contradicted himself by trying to describe Tao in many chapters for the different meaning of Tao. Actually, he was trying to tell us that Tao cannot be described in one word due to its multiple meanings. He has to describe Tao separately. Indeed, the name itself has definite significant meaning each time when it was used.

 

So far, nine pages are nothing as compared to eighty-one chapters in the Tao Te Ching. BTW Why does it bother you so much......???

Peace...!!!

Edited January 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Owledge]

So far, nine pages are nothing as compared to eighty-one chapters in the Tao Te Ching.

Nine forum pages trying to understand what the Tao is compared to 81 tiny chapters trying to teach the Tao.

I'm amazed how profoundly people can misunderstand the nature of the Tao Te Ching.

It's not an acedemic text. It's a workbook.

[ChiDragon]

I'm amazed how profoundly people can misunderstand the nature of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I am on your side and cannot agree with you more but my post #141 is still holds.....

Edited January 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Mr. Marblehead....

Shall we stop here or continue.....???? I think we had enough. Don't you....???

[Owledge]

Owledge.....

"Didn't even Lao Tzu say that he just used that name to give it a name and that it's of no relevance?"

If you took that literally, then, you had missed the whole point. I granted you that Loa Tze said Tao is indescribable in the first chapter. However, did you see what he did...??? He contradicted himself by trying to describe Tao in many chapters for the different meaning of Tao. Actually, he was trying to tell us that Tao cannot be described in one word due to its multiple meanings. He has to describe Tao separately. Indeed, the name itself has definite significant meaning each time when it was used.

Can you please give me some quotes where he supposedly tries to describe Tao?

I think you are the one mistaking his teachings with attempts at describing it. Quite clear though should be that he doesn't try to describe several meanings of Tao, but it's the same principle all the time. He has to intellectually circle around that which the intellect cannot grasp. He tries to give advice on how to live in order to follow the Tao. That is not an attempted description of what the Tao is. It is more like the situation where the student asks the master: "What does this exercise do?" and the master replies: "Stop asking questions and just do the exercise."

Another metaphor: If you want to draw a picture of a black hole, then you cannot possible draw the black hole. All you can do is draw stars and not draw them where the black hole is supposed to be. Lao Tzu is not trying to explain what a black hole looks like. He's telling you about a certain pattern of stars.

 

The mind easily misguides itself when it reads instructions, but their point is to still the mind, not to stimulate it. The path towards the Tao is synthetic, not analytical. The mind's fear-based behavior separates us from the Tao. (unsatisfying explanation, but I have no better one)

Edited January 2, 2013 by Owledge

[ChiDragon]

1. Can you please give me some quotes where he supposedly tries to describe Tao?

2. ........(unsatisfying explanation, but I have no better one)

 

1. Now, at this point in time, you are asking me for some quotes. I guess you have not follow this thread at all.

2. With this kind of attitude(unsatisfying), you will never have a satisfying explanation nor understand of the TTC. Based on your present insecure feeling about the TTC, I felt it wouldn't be advantageous to extend our inconclusive discussion to another forum page.

[Owledge]

I don't desire a satisfying explanation of the Tao nor an understanding of the TTC. I read it and it mostly made sense. I disagree with some points or have my doubts, but I get the basic principle Lao Tzu wanted to highlight.

Thriving for grapsing some kind of exact message or truth in the TTC sounds like spiritual materialism, or maybe just the very common deviation from the spiritual way when the fear-based mind tries to hijack the process.

 

Are you also analyzing koans in order to find their true message so that you can make a checkmark and sleep peacefully, believing you have just gained wisdom?

 

There's nothing to be gained from reading the TTC. But there's stuff to let go of.

The best stuff in there is probably that which changes you without you noticing.

 

Reminds me of something Max Christensen said during a seminar when unsuccessfully trying to release a blockage: "You're too much in your head. ... Most people on The Tao Bums are."

[ChiDragon]

1. Are you also analyzing koans in order to find their true message so that you can make a checkmark and sleep peacefully, believing you have just gained wisdom?

 

2. Reminds me of something Max Christensen said during a seminar when unsuccessfully trying to release a blockage: "You're too much in your head. ... Most people on The Tao Bums are."

 

1. I am not quite sure what you are asking.

2. It takes one to know one....