Protector Posted December 29, 2012 Yeah, all these 5 pages... for nothing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 I will give you an 'F' for this one. Why did you use Mitchell's mistranslation instead of Wu, Feng and Hendricks....??? Mitchell was way off basis. Because I said I will use only Mitchell for this discussion. You aren't wanting me to be a hypocrite, are you? I can't knowingly do that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 Yeah, all these 5 pages... for nothing And if you stop looking you will never know the difference. In fact, if you stop looking you will never know that this discussion is taking place. Then, and only then, will it be of nothing for you. ย But then, it may well be for something for others. Those are the ones who should be looking at the discussion and even joining in whenever they can. ย Yeah, I apologize that we have no ponies running around in this thread but really, it was initiated for the purpose of discussing an aspect of the TTC, not for watching little pony videos. ย Anyhow, please join in if you have anything of value to add to the discussion. (No, I'm not going to say, Otherwise keep you mouth shut. Hehehe.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted December 29, 2012 Does a verb always activate a noun in Chinese ChiDragon? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 Okay then. Let's look at Chapter 77 from Henricks' Te-Tao Ching (77 is not in the Guodian) ย Bad choice. Hehehe. The word "Tao" does not exist. ย We do see: ย (1) The Way of Heaven ... ย (2) The Way of Man ... ย (3) ... one who possesses the Way. ย So, what do we have here? ย (1) The processes of Heaven - verb ย (2) The processes of Man - verb (I personally thing that the "W" in (2) should have been a lower case "w". ย (3) One who possesses a thing - the Tao - noun. ย Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) Does a verb always activate a noun in Chinese ChiDragon? ย Let's compare the Chinese with English. ย English: My mother mothered me. Chinese: Tao ke tao(้ๅฏ้). The second ้ is a small t because it is not a noun. ย In English, the noun "mother" becomes a verb by adding "ed" at the end. In Chinese, the noun "Tao" becomes a verb by adding the character ๅฏ(ke) in front of Tao. ย mothered: gave birth to ke tao(ๅฏ้): may be spoken of Edited December 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) I'm thinking maybe Tao ke tao is meaning something like the "the path that can be followed" as in "the trail that can be trailed is not the lasting trail." Edited December 29, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) Okay then. Let's look at Chapter 77 from Henricks' Te-Tao Ching (77 is not in the Guodian) ย Bad choice. Hehehe. The word "Tao" does not exist. ย We do see: ย (1) The Way of Heaven ... ย (2) The Way of Man ... ย (3) ... one who possesses the Way. ย So, what do we have here? ย (1) The processes of Heaven - verb ย (2) The processes of Man - verb (I personally thing that the "W" in (2) should have been a lower case "w". ย (3) One who possesses a thing - the Tao - noun. ย 1. "Bad choice. Hehehe. The word "Tao" does not exist." This is a perfect choice to illustrate the language difference in Chinese and English. "Tao" does not exist in this translated chapter was because "way" is a perfect translation for Tao in this Chapter. It would be easy for a hardheaded person to grasp this one. Hehehe.... Most people weren't thinking about the meaning of Tao because the first thing that they ever thought of "Way" was the only translation of Tao. There are many meanings for "Tao" in the Tao Te Ching. It is a matter of finding and comprehension of the meanings. It is a common problem for both natives and non-natives without looking into it very closely. ย 2. "I personally thing that the "W" in (2) should have been a lower case" You are perfectly correct, even in (1) "the way of heaven" should be lower case. ย ๅคฉไน้: the way of Heaven For the interpretation here, we are not looking at Tao nor Heaven but "the way of Heaven". Then it comes to a question what is the way of Heaven. ย In Chinese thinking, when ๅคฉ(tian: Heaven) was mentioned, it was referred as "being natural"; it has to be it; cannot change the way it is. Therefore, the phrase "the way of Heaven" actually means the "natural way" or the "way of Nature". ย The character "tao" used in this chapter is not the same "Tao" used in Chapter 1. Edited December 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) I'm thinking maybe Tao ke tao is meaning something like the "the path that can be followed" as in "the trail that can be trailed is not the lasting trail." ย It's an isolated non-scholastic thought, because the notion does not link to the rest of the logic in other chapters of the TTC. Why would a person with high wisdom like LaoTze making such an uneducated remark like that.....??? Edited December 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted December 29, 2012 Hey, first of all, the rudeness is unnecessary. ย second, the trail that is followed, ie., the finite understanding of nature does not stand the test of time. To understand Dao, one must be free of conceptual thinking and know in the heart. If they try to create a finite trail, it will not lead to Dao, but to dead ends. ย Thus, the trail that is marked out and followed is not the enduring path. The true path is without such linear thinking and behaviours. As soon as you create a trail and follow it expecting to find Dao, you miss the truth surrounding you and only see the end of that trail. ย Give up winning Chi Dragon. We're supposed to be here to learn. To try to win is to lose on this path of learning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) Sorry, no offense. I guess I failed to get my point across with a little stimulant. Yes, there are many paths in learning but all depend what path you wish to take. I am not try to win. Winning is meaningless to me. If you wish to continue with your path is fine with me. I do not wish to continue to provoke with anymore stimulants. I will stop here. Peace. ย ย PS.... In order to have a meaningful discussion, one has to give it all the best and able to take criticism and have room for correction. If self pride and winning were so important and discard what someone said sustained with reasons, then, it is not a good discussion. What was a good discussion to me is that there must be exchange in words with rebuttal within the context of the subject. Otherwise, if no one respond to your comments, then, you are just talking to yourself. BTW, all the personal stuffs are just minute feces which can be ignored or filter it out. ย Learning is use references from many sources, it is not a guessing game or one might thought what it is. Edited December 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 ... even in (1) "the way of heaven" should be lower case. Yes, I felt this too but I didn't want to take the liberty of saying so as I do not read Chinese and would not have been able to justify myself had I. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 ChiDragon, you better be nice or I will start quoting from Wayne Wang's translation of the TTC. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) Yes, I felt this too but I didn't want to take the liberty of saying so as I do not read Chinese and would not have been able to justify myself had I. ย Yes, but you have an open mind and open heart which make it a lot easier to communicate with. ย ย ChiDragon, you better be nice or I will start quoting from Wayne Wang's translation of the TTC. ย What have I done for not being nice....??? You may quote anybody's translation. It doesn't bother me. I love to analyze them. Edited December 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 What have I done for not being nice....??? You may quote anybody's translation. It doesn't bother me. I love to analyze them. Hehehe. Just messing with you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 Hehehe. Just messing with you. ย Yes, I thought that was the naughty side of you.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 29, 2012 I thought that was the naughty side of you.... Yeah, it does exist. I do try to keep it hidden most of the time. ย BTW In Mitchell's introduction to his translation, which really is a translation of a translation, he does admit that he did not always remain literal in his translation but also interpretted. But still, I lot of people like his 'translation' so I wasn't being completely unfair when I decided to use his. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gerard Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) . Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 29, 2012 The usage of "Tao" seems changing its pace, completely, in Chapter 46 is very interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) I'm thinking maybe Tao ke tao is meaning something like the "the path that can be followed" as in "the trail that can be trailed is not the lasting trail." It's an isolated non-scholastic thought, because the notion does not link to the rest of the logic in other chapters of the TTC. Why would a person with high wisdom like LaoTze making such an uneducated remark like that.....??? ย What exactly do you mean by non-scholastic? Why would it be an uneducated remark? ย Note the following similar translations (for the record, I just checked them now, rather than before coming up with a word for word "trail that can be trailed/path that can be followed") ย Cleary A way can be a guide, but not a fixed path Hansen To guide what can be guided is not constant guiding Lindauer A tao that one can tao Is not the entire tao Muller The Tao that can be followed is not the eternal Tao. Red Pine The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way ย ย I think I'm in good company there. ย "Cleary received a PhD in East Asian Languages and Civilizations from Harvard University as well as a JD from the University of California, Berkeley, Boalt Hall School of Law,[4] but has had minimal involvement with the academic world, claiming that "there is too much oppression in a university setting,[1]" and that he wants "to stay independent and reach those who who want to learn directly through [his] books.[1]" He reserves some praise for his alma mater, though; "a good thing about Harvard was language training was done by native teachers. You did not find that everywhere.[1]" -Wikipedia Edited December 30, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) HE.... I have a very thorough explanation in the discussion of Chapter 1. Perhaps you can read my response there. ย If you really want to learn line 1 of Chapter 1, please read post # 22, it is the most scholastic explanation. It is the best source there is. Edited December 30, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted December 30, 2012 Well what's the point of this discussion then? ย I looked through the Ch. 1 discussion and didn't see anything related to this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) HE.... I have a very thorough explanation in the discussion of Chapter 1. Perhaps you can read my response there. ย If you really want to learn line 1 of Chapter 1, please read post # 22, it is the most scholastic explanation. It is the best source there is. Edited December 30, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted December 30, 2012 (edited) ME....Go there and see it make any sense to you. http://forum.daoisop...227&whichpage=1 ย http://forum.daoisop...230&whichpage=1 ย I know your frustration. However, It is a different subject matter here in this thread. I am glad to go the Tao Te Ching section to discuss Chapter One over there with you. Edited December 30, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted December 30, 2012 Okay, but this sort of determines it's use and meaning as a verb, it seems. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
