Holy Guardian Angel

[Nungali]

[rex]

Discussion with someone who's been doing the Abramelin work:

http://headforred.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/ropocalypse-now-with-special-guest_18.html

[RiverSnake]

Lol, glad I didn't lose a hip.

Edited December 22, 2014 by OldChi

[Nungali]

The angel needs to shift his weight to the right , lever up Jacob's top thigh with his own, go in for a left handed eye gouge and ....

 

 

ooops, sorry ! Cant help myself

[RiverSnake]

Found some valuable tidbits in these links regarding the HGA, enjoy:

 

https://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2012/07/17/abramelin-be-afraid/

 

https://aaronleitch.wordpress.com/2012/06/18/five-gravity-wells-in-modern-occultism/

Edited February 20, 2015 by OldChi

[RiverSnake]

I thought I'd share some recent insights I've had in regards to working with my HGA. It has become apparent to me through recent experiences that as you continue to deepen your work with this particular angel it becomes innevitable and necessary (IME) that you become attuned to the chthonic current in one way or another.....versus just trying to jump ship.

 

Along those lines it's come to my attention that the spirit Scirilin from the Grimorium Verum has in one way or another a strong "working" relationship with your HGA (IME). It's also come to my attention that many others have come to this knowledge as well. It is interesting how there can be crossovers with spirits from different Grimoires. Anyways that's my 2 cents, will likely have more to contribute later.

Edited February 21, 2015 by OldChi

[Dave]

By removing the negativity that anchors you to the profane, a true path first leads you to find what is sacred within. As you move closer to what lies beyond, you will find that the beyond moves closer to you, as you open up to your true potential. Once you have found your true self nothing is ever the same again as you look at the world through a different lens, as you see the Truth that was right in front of you all along. When you have touched what is sacred, concepts like religion and dogma melt away as the Truth can never be spoken, never be drawn or expressed. It is has a purity that can never be bought and has to be earned.

[Nungali]

" While the concept of the personal deity of the Near East, more commonly known to today's mages as the Holy Guardian Angel has become one of the more distinguishable aspects of western occultism, the familiar spirit, on the other hand has not received the same attention. It is my opinion that a more hollistic approach to magical practices would be to get back to this older and more complete paradigm where both spiritual guides are cultivated, one to restore man's innate connection with the divine, and the other to restore man's innate connection to the underworld--it is the connection to both that distinguishes the mage from the mystic and priest."

 

...

 

" My experiences with both my Holy Guardian Angel and my person djinn have led me to believe that the incomplete approach that has been become popularized by Abramelin may indeed actually contribute to the disparity in results acheived by those traditions still connected to their folk roots versus those that have lost that connection. This can be seen in the results acheived by Arabian mages and people in the ATRs versus the less than spectacular results acheived by western occultism. It comes down to the approach.

 

...

 

" If our focus is entirely on the Holy Guardian Angel then our magic by very nature will take a more mystical aspect. The Holy Guarian Angel is beyond a doubt a powerful force in our lives, but the results often alluded to in the grimoires are a result not of Angels who focus on more cosmic matters, but the sublunar or chthonic spirits who hold a strong connection to our natural world. For the magus to acheive the level of success that is often fantasized he or she must also cultivate the power of the chthonic and this is done through the intermediary spirit of old.

 

In my opinion it is time for this old familiar spirit to once more be recognized as a valid source for the power for the mage and take its place in the western world along with its counterparts in the ATRs."

 

http://ravenconjure.blogspot.com.au/2011_08_01_archive.html

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I thought I'd share some recent insights I've had in regards to working with my HGA. It has become apparent to me through recent experiences that as you continue to deepen your work with this particular angel it becomes innevitable and necessary (IME) that you become attuned to the chthonic current in one way or another.....versus just trying to jump ship.

 

Along those lines it's come to my attention that the spirit Scirilin from the Grimorium Verum has in one way or another a strong "working" relationship with your HGA (IME). It's also come to my attention that many others have come to this knowledge as well. It is interesting how there can be crossovers with spirits from different Grimoires. Anyways that's my 2 cents, will likely have more to contribute later.

 

I noticed a long time ago that the higher up your connections reach, the deeper they go also.  It seems to be unavoidable and can become a problem if one is not aware of it or doesn't handle it correctly.

 

Spirits can have many names and systems of magic can take different forms.  I have often thought that Enochian Magic was really the system that took form in the Sworn Book of Honorius trying to take on another form not as dependent on connections with Roman Catholic Christianity.

 

" While the concept of the personal deity of the Near East, more commonly known to today's mages as the Holy Guardian Angel has become one of the more distinguishable aspects of western occultism, the familiar spirit, on the other hand has not received the same attention. It is my opinion that a more hollistic approach to magical practices would be to get back to this older and more complete paradigm where both spiritual guides are cultivated, one to restore man's innate connection with the divine, and the other to restore man's innate connection to the underworld--it is the connection to both that distinguishes the mage from the mystic and priest."

 

...

 

" My experiences with both my Holy Guardian Angel and my person djinn have led me to believe that the incomplete approach that has been become popularized by Abramelin may indeed actually contribute to the disparity in results acheived by those traditions still connected to their folk roots versus those that have lost that connection. This can be seen in the results acheived by Arabian mages and people in the ATRs versus the less than spectacular results acheived by western occultism. It comes down to the approach.

 

...

 

" If our focus is entirely on the Holy Guardian Angel then our magic by very nature will take a more mystical aspect. The Holy Guarian Angel is beyond a doubt a powerful force in our lives, but the results often alluded to in the grimoires are a result not of Angels who focus on more cosmic matters, but the sublunar or chthonic spirits who hold a strong connection to our natural world. For the magus to acheive the level of success that is often fantasized he or she must also cultivate the power of the chthonic and this is done through the intermediary spirit of old.

 

In my opinion it is time for this old familiar spirit to once more be recognized as a valid source for the power for the mage and take its place in the western world along with its counterparts in the ATRs."

 

http://ravenconjure.blogspot.com.au/2011_08_01_archive.html

(Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

the less than spectacular results acheived by western occultism: The obsession with the Holy Guardian Angel is part of the reason, the "pscyhologization" of magic where spirits are considered to be merely parts of the human psyche is another.  Both of these have their primary impetus in Crowley.  I am glad to see you are reading from and quoting other sources.  Keep up the good work.

 

There are lots of ways to practice magic, I never bothered with the Holy Guardian Angel.  Being obsessed with the HGA only distracts one from exploring those other areas.  Among other things there are very profound aspects of the Golden Dawn tradition that Crowley completely misunderstood, they have their roots in antiquity and I never see them mentioned in popular discussions like this.

 

 

 

Edit: Spelling, distract to distracts

Edit: Added "them" to "and I never see them mentioned"

Edited February 22, 2015 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Nungali]

I noticed a long time ago that the higher up your connections reach, the deeper they go also.  It seems to be unavoidable and can become a problem if one is not aware of it or doesn't handle it correctly.

 

Spirits can have many names and systems of magic can take different forms.  I have often thought that Enochian Magic was really the system that took form in the Sworn Book of Honorius trying to take on another form not as dependent on connections with Roman Catholic Christianity.

 

 

the less than spectacular results acheived by western occultism: The obsession with the Holy Guardian Angel is part of the reason, the "pscyhologization" of magic where spirits are considered to be merely parts of the human psyche is another.  Both of these have their primary impetus in Crowley.  I am glad to see you are reading from and quoting other sources.  Keep up the good work.

 

I prefer (personally) to see the ' "pscyhologization" of magic'  as the becoming aware of that aspect of psychology, not that psychology actually generates 'magical effects'. Admittedly many have seen this as the generator or source of ' magical phenomena', I  it see as an interaction. Similar I see much of it generated by the 'imaginative faculty', yet my definition of 'imagination' and its powers, is probably much wider than many, again I see it as interaction and deeply connected to 'soul'.

 

Then there is the whole 'genetic issue'  .....  " the spirits that have a strong connection with the natural world" ... my indigenous 'studies' are interesting in this area ( well ... for me )  ... also some things I am tracking between the ancient Egyptians and some African systems .

 

(At some stage I might make a post on that.)

 

I often read and quote from sources other than Crowley,  but they dont get the same response as when I quote something Crowley said that I happen to like     .....  regardless of what 'overall damage' he has done.

 

There are lots of ways to practice magic, I never bothered with the Holy Guardian Angel.  Being obsessed with the HGA only distracts one from exploring those other areas.  Among other things there are very profound aspects of the Golden Dawn tradition that Crowley completely misunderstood, they have their roots in antiquity and I never see them mentioned in popular discussions like this.

 

 

I would be into reading any info about any profound aspects of the Golden Dawn traditions that  they have their roots in antiquity , especially if you would care to post it..   

 

 

ETA ;  highlighted 'you'.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Nungali

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The general structure of quotation is that of authoritative citation, in other words “me and the big guy over there agree, end of discussion”.
 

I often read and quote from sources other than Crowley, but they dont get the same response as when I quote something Crowley said that I happen to like ..... regardless of what 'overall damage' he has done.

Why do you like something that Crowley says? Surely not because it is in disagreement with your own ideas, is it? But then if it is because he agrees with your own ideas, why not simply state your own and leave it at that? Are you simply too insecure to stand on your own two feet? And what of someone who reads your quotes? What are they to make of your citation? Do you ever qualify your citations of Crowley? Do you ever follow the example of Regardie that you quote here:
 

[Aside: Not that I want to start up the debate about Crowley again! – well, not here. I ask that we at least agree that Crowley had some degree of illumination and at least some degree of neurosis. {Eg. On the first hand, I cite Crowley’s writings, system and tarot and on the other hand I quote Regardie (although there are numerous incidences) as his example demonstrates my point; Suster says when people visited Regardie and put Crowley down Regardie would demonstrate Crowley’s genius. On the other hand, if the person seemed unrealistically praising Crowley, Regardie would respond with a comment like, “Yes, yes, a shame though that the old boy couldn’t resist getting his women to shit on him as he lay on the floor.”.]

And say something like, "Crowley was an egomaniacal fool who did a lot of damage to the magical revival, but I do agree with him that 'quote' and I think that he said it better than I might be able to do". I don't recall ever seeing anything like this, but maybe I missed something.

By the way, someone might take your quote of Suster as being aimed at me, because surely I must not have a balanced view of Crowley, because I have nothing nice to say about him. Well, I do and I did:
 

Little Eddie [AKA, Aleister Crowley, for those who don't know enough to know his real name.] grew up to be a master prose stylist, even today almost fifty years after I first bought Magick in Theory and Practice, when I reread sections of it I still marvel at how well written it is, but for all that, Crowley remained a prisoner of his childhood. Stripped of its pretension to science and mysticism, Thelema's formal structure mirror's that of the evangelical Protestantism of Crowley's youth with a couple of strategic inversions thrown in for rebelliousness sake. (Added reference to clarify who "lttle Eddie" was, ZYD)

But, please note that I did qualify my admiration for him.

Now first to remind you and everyone, I have very strong criticisms of the whole of the magical revival, including the Golden Dawn. Of Neomagical writers, I like Regardie and some others, including my old “buddy” Don Kraig, and I would respectfully disagree with any of them, but Crowley contributes to a decline in Neomagical theory from how it even existed in the Golden Dawn, while at the same time by creating his “new age” cult, and its don't read anything before me attitude, has made it impossible for people to take older material seriously, with the odd exception of shamanic material, which avoids the ban under its unconscious evocation of the “primitivism” meme that dominates Romanticist thinking and apparently trumps even Crowley.
 

I prefer (personally) to see the ' "pscyhologization" of magic' as the becoming aware of that aspect of psychology, not that psychology actually generates 'magical effects'. Admittedly many have seen this as the generator or source of ' magical phenomena', I it see as an interaction. Similar I see much of it generated by the 'imaginative faculty', yet my definition of 'imagination' and its powers, is probably much wider than many, again I see it as interaction and deeply connected to 'soul'.

While this may be what you want to see about the “psychologization” of magic now, was it always so? And what of the many over the last century who had simple seen magic as a primitive form of Freudian and Jungian psychology? How many "Rude  evocations", such as you and BaguaKicksAss complain about Here:
 
Rude Evocations and other horrors attributed to the Golden Dawn
 
Have been made ruder then necessary by Crowley's attitude, for which I could cite examples both from his theoretical writings and his practical instructions, but why should I have to?  Oh, wait, I remember why, because some people keep on quoting him with apparent approval, that's why.
 
I have read your threads, I followed your “development”, I have read your posts on your shamanic contacts with Native Australian practitioners, but Magic is not reducible to Shamanism. It has its roots in shamanic practice, but it is not reducible to it anymore than to modern psychology. Mere age is no more a testament to truth then modernity.  To make it clear, probably 95% of shamanism is dealt with in a rich theoretical context, in Book One, dealing with Natural Magic, of Agrippa's Three Books, small amounts of material that is more relevant to Books Two and Three, are also in Shamanism, but what is not is of much more value than anything shamanism, of whatever variety, has to offer, and yes, I am as well informed about shamanism as I am about Crowley, so my opinions on the matter are not unfounded.
 

I would be into reading any info about any profound aspects of the Golden Dawn traditions that they have their roots in antiquity , especially if you would care to post it..

As for me posting on profound aspects of the Golden Dawn, I already have, and the ones to which I was particularly referring I have pointed in their direction several times, but why should I be explicit? I found them myself, what have you or the other readers of the now, Dao Bums, ever done for me, that I should be mindful of you? It is an act of generosity that I spend the irreplaceable coinage of time posting here at all. Yet people act as if it is their right to know what I have spent both irreplaceable decades of my life, and tens of thousands of dollars to acquire. Go ask your shamanic buddies all about the Golden Dawn, they must have all the answers that Crowley doesn't, because they are the pure, the untainted by the evils of civilization, or at least that is the Romanticist dogma in the matter.  Or reread my posts and do a little digging and thinking for yourself, try the search function here.  If you come up with something that even shows goodwill in the matter, I will say more.

[Nungali]

Well .... I do feel like responding to post, but I hope it isnt seen as 'more' waving the red flag at the bull. Because that certainly isnt my intention.

The general structure of quotation is that of authoritative citation, in other words “me and the big guy over there agree, end of discussion”.

If this refers to me .... ? Are you saying in discussions here that I put forward my ideas and that is it , that I cite Crowley to support my ideas and 'end of discussion ' ? That I havent been receptive at all to what you say ? That I have never shown appreciation and thanks for your contribution?

 

 

 

Why do you like something that Crowley says?

Sometimes the content and the way that it is expressed seems a simpler and clearer form of what I have been trying to formulate in my own head .

 

 

 

 

Surely not because it is in disagreement with your own ideas, is it? But then if it is because he agrees with your own ideas, why not simply state your own and leave it at that? Are you simply too insecure to stand on your own two feet? And what of someone who reads your quotes? What are they to make of your citation? Do you ever qualify your citations of Crowley? Do you ever follow the example of Regardie that you quote here:

Firstly, the whole article was in context of how ones 'psychological problems' might interfere with magical practice and pointing out Crowley seemed to suffer from imbalances. The quote by Regardie was made to that end. The protests above about quoting and my own ideas and references to my 'insecurities' can relate to anyone I quote ... including the above Regardie quote. Why does anyone quote ? I hadnt thought I was being so influential that when I quote someone I need to address their whole outlook, situation and personal evaluation of them.

 

 

And say something like, "Crowley was an egomaniacal fool who did a lot of damage to the magical revival, but I do agree with him that 'quote' and I think that he said it better than I might be able to do". I don't recall ever seeing anything like this, but maybe I missed something.

You probably didnt miss anything as you are pretty observant (and apparently read a lot of my posts). Perhaps my criticisms are more internal than I realise. They have been external enough though to not be accepted and poo-pooed and mocked and bull-charged by many a 'Thelamite'

(... I have had the same thing all my life ... even as a youth not popular because I hung out with elements of the ' wrong' crowd at times - apparently motorcycles and surfboards were not to be mixed ? )

By the way, someone might take your quote of Suster as being aimed at me,

 

Okay ... I can usually follow you ... but here I am stumped. Firstly NO, this quote is not aimed at you. And there was no surreptitious hidden innuendo or whatever intended .

It was me quoting Suster who was quoting Regardie who was talking about Crowley and a clear demonstration I thought , of the aim of my post; to show that IMO Crowley had some real problems ... that went beyond 'mastering aversion. to having a fascination with it, ( which by the way, IMO , seems to go against some his writings about balancing the higher with the lower .

Again, the article was about if a magical path alone can bring one to balance, as it seemed to me some 'magicians', and Crowley seemed a great example here, need to use psychology to balance their problems before taking on magical practices , and I thought Regardie was advocating that process.

If the post was read and interpreted as some sort of Crowley barracking and blind support ... and having a shot at or suggested references to you .... the entire point and intent of it was missed.

 

 

 

because surely I must not have a balanced view of Crowley, because I have nothing nice to say about him. Well, I do and I did:


But, please note that I did qualify my admiration for him.

And he keeps surfacing doesnt he ... I mean I didnt even mention him in the above post ... I actually didnt even make a comment myself in that post, it was just a quote (and again, I quoted someone as I liked the way they wrote the particular thing I quoted , whether it was because I am so insecure I cant stand on my own two feet or not, I leave for others to judge me on that). I never mentioned the chap, yet in response to my post

here we are talking about him again !

 

 

 

Now first to remind you and everyone, I have very strong criticisms of the whole of the magical revival, including the Golden Dawn. Of Neomagical writers, I like Regardie and some others, including my old “buddy” Don Kraig, and I would respectfully disagree with any of them,

Yep ... I got that, and any newcomers here that may be reading this for the first time ... he does too !

And this is why I like and appreciate your posts here Donald , I have said that before.

 

 

but Crowley contributes to a decline in Neomagical theory from how it even existed in the Golden Dawn, while at the same time by creating his “new age” cult, and its don't read anything before me attitude,

Well, I dont know how that got into it. I remember being turned off Crowley at the beginning when looking at his recommended reading list that one should undertake... lists of classics, .... no, I wont post the list as I dont want to feed the flames. I dont get this criticism though, but I dont want this thread to become a Crowley debate ... even though it is a HGA thread by title ( and even though at times I have tried to steer it away from the idea that the concept (aside from the funny name he 'borrowed' -HGA) is centred in Crowley's teaching , and posted quotes and concepts from other traditions, including the concepts in Zoroastrianism.

 

 

 

has made it impossible for people to take older material seriously, with the odd exception of shamanic material, which avoids the ban under its unconscious evocation of the “primitivism” meme that dominates Romanticist thinking and apparently trumps even Crowley.

Maybe .... for me it is where I live and the people I come in contact with and what I experience in the environment. I am not living in some city apartment and reading about shamanism ... it came from sitting and sleeping in the dirt with them, talking and feeling around the fire at night with elders, being involved . It started as a kid going off camping by myself in school holidays, across the river to the National Park, feeling and experiencing what was 'laid down in the land' , in a confused and abstract way. trying to find out what I was feeling and the things I discovered there and the experiences I had. No one could tell me, I asked and was told ; "Oh ... they all went away ... they was no one there in the first place ... it is your imagination .... they all caught the flu and died ... etc. "

Then I moved to the country and started to meet some of them ... instant understanding ! No, shamanism isnt something I have adopted that has had anything to do with reading Crowley ... it goes back to when I was about 6 years old and an old aboriginal man sat a blue tongue lizard on my head ... and we both happlily stayed there (at a boomerang and snake and reptile handling show ) ... anyway, I better stop here, this isnt my life history.

 

 

 

While this may be what you want to see about the “psychologization” of magic now, was it always so?

No, not at all ... I am still developing my views and ideas. Its a fascinating journey and just keeps going and expanding. What I want to see is immaterial. I often get what I want on the physical plane ... what I really want to see is further ... otherwise I wouldnt be talking to you .

 

 

And what of the many over the last century who had simple seen magic as a primitive form of Freudian and Jungian psychology?

That is their view I suppose .... what about the sceptics ... what about scientism ... what about the greedy economo-rationalist materialists ... all I do is take things in and circulate them and compare them and come to my own conclusions, that are still ongoing and developing ... Dog help me if I ever to the stage where I 'know everything'

 

 

How many "Rude evocations", such as you and BaguaKicksAss complain about Here:

Rude Evocations and other horrors attributed to the Golden Dawn

Have been made ruder then necessary by Crowley's attitude, for which I could cite examples both from his theoretical writings and his practical instructions, but why should I have to? Oh, wait, I remember why, because some people keep on quoting him with apparent approval, that's why.

I have read your threads, I followed your “development”, I have read your posts on your shamanic contacts with Native Australian practitioners, but Magic is not reducible to Shamanism. It has its roots in shamanic practice, but it is not reducible to it anymore than to modern psychology.

I agree, my idea of 'Magic' is not reducible to shamanism either, nor just psychology. But I will still use those things and incorporate them, because , like magic, they have come into my life, for whatever reason. I will accept that and work with it.

 

 

 

Mere age is no more a testament to truth then modernity. To make it clear, probably 95% of shamanism is dealt with in a rich theoretical context, in Book One, dealing with Natural Magic, of Agrippa's Three Books, small amounts of material that is more relevant to Books Two and Three, are also in Shamanism, but what is not is of much more value than anything shamanism, of whatever variety, has to offer, and yes, I am as well informed about shamanism as I am about Crowley, so my opinions on the matter are not unfounded.

As I said , my experience with Shamanism isnt via Agrippa nor Crowley ... I have read up on it and compared systems of it from an anthropological perspective, but personal experience comes from environment and people I have met - a totally different thing IMO.

 

 

 

As for me posting on profound aspects of the Golden Dawn, I already have, and the ones to which I was particularly referring I have pointed in their direction several times, but why should I be explicit? I found them myself, what have you or the other readers of the now, Dao Bums, ever done for me, that I should be mindful of you?

Its up to you how mindfull you want to be of anyone. I cant answer your question. However I will acknowledge that I haven't followed up all your pointing and referencing .... 'going to get back to that' - yes, a rather pathetic excuse I freely admit.

In any case thanks for the answer, what I seek is probably what I glossed over ... so I will go back .

 

 

 

It is an act of generosity that I spend the irreplaceable coinage of time posting here at all. Yet people act as if it is their right to know what I have spent both irreplaceable decades of my life, and tens of thousands of dollars to acquire.

Well, I realise a mere thank you and appreciation from me isnt going to heal that feeling you have, but once again I do thank you and appreciate you for engaging and showing me things from your perspective. I dont think I have right to expect anything from you though. I sorta thought people were posting here because they enjoyed posting about stuff they learnt or discovered.

 

 

 

 

Go ask your shamanic buddies all about the Golden Dawn, they must have all the answers that Crowley doesn't,

?

 

 

 

 

because they are the pure, the untainted by the evils of civilization, or at least that is the Romanticist dogma in the matter. Or reread my posts and do a little digging and thinking for yourself, try the search function here. If you come up with something that even shows goodwill in the matter, I will say more.

Okay whatever ... but really I dont get what bought this on ... I made a total post of quotes with no comments, I already have enough of your posts, work, and references to keep me busy for a while , again thanks for that.

As far as any 'goodwill' goes , as I said, its there in some of my past posts. ( I think I even posted once a picture of a formal Japanese bow to you )... I really hope you dont think I have been mocking you or anything like that ? Now I am wondering, especially after the comment that referring to Suster might be referring to you .... or whatever that was in 'danger' of doing, about some 'unseen by me' 'dynamics' going on here.

[ You do realise I have a certain type of 'humour' and dig and elbow people with non 'spit-on-you' intentions. I joke and jostle like that with a few here and they give it back in the same spirit. I actually restrain myself a bit from that with you, as I detected a bit of sensitivity in that area.  But my thanks and appreciation of you have not been sarcasm or a joke .]

Edited February 22, 2015 by Nungali

[Orion]

I came into this topic with an idea on this subject, but you've all given me some food for thought.

 

My concept of the HGA is that there is a high level being assigned to you personally within this life, who is charged with the responsibility of helping you to stay in your self-assigned path. Some believe that this path is discussed at length between birth cycles so that the desired work to be accomplished is set out, and then your HGA agrees to keep you on task. Others believe it's a co-creative thing, where you have free will to do whatever you wish, but the HGA ensures that you will still be confronted by the lesson plan no matter which avenue you take. (Meaning, the specific form of the lesson plan can be whatever you choose, but the lesson will still happen.)

 

The notions that the HGA is some future version of your enlightened self coming back to help you, or that it's your higher self communicating with your lesser ego, are interesting. I'm not so sure though. I've experienced direct guidance in states of total ego dissolution. And maybe I have a primitive understanding of time, but why would the HGA come back to the past to ensure you make it if your current trajectory leads to it anyway?

[Michael Sternbach]

I came into this topic with an idea on this subject, but you've all given me some food for thought.

 

My concept of the HGA is that there is a high level being assigned to you personally within this life, who is charged with the responsibility of helping you to stay in your self-assigned path. Some believe that this path is discussed at length between birth cycles so that the desired work to be accomplished is set out, and then your HGA agrees to keep you on task. Others believe it's a co-creative thing, where you have free will to do whatever you wish, but the HGA ensures that you will still be confronted by the lesson plan no matter which avenue you take. (Meaning, the specific form of the lesson plan can be whatever you choose, but the lesson will still happen.)

 

The notions that the HGA is some future version of your enlightened self coming back to help you, or that it's your higher self communicating with your lesser ego, are interesting. I'm not so sure though. I've experienced direct guidance in states of total ego dissolution. And maybe I have a primitive understanding of time, but why would the HGA come back to the past to ensure you make it if your current trajectory leads to it anyway?

 

Yes, this is confusing, due to our inadequate understanding of time. Within that context, the HGA could be thought of as a Final Cause in the Aristotelian sense, acting backwards in time, thus kindling the fire of the evolution whose eventual result it is.

 

The Great Attractor is a related concept in Chaos Theory.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I came into this topic with an idea on this subject, but you've all given me some food for thought.

 

My concept of the HGA is that there is a high level being assigned to you personally within this life, who is charged with the responsibility of helping you to stay in your self-assigned path. Some believe that this path is discussed at length between birth cycles so that the desired work to be accomplished is set out, and then your HGA agrees to keep you on task. Others believe it's a co-creative thing, where you have free will to do whatever you wish, but the HGA ensures that you will still be confronted by the lesson plan no matter which avenue you take. (Meaning, the specific form of the lesson plan can be whatever you choose, but the lesson will still happen.)

 

The notions that the HGA is some future version of your enlightened self coming back to help you, or that it's your higher self communicating with your lesser ego, are interesting. I'm not so sure though. I've experienced direct guidance in states of total ego dissolution. And maybe I have a primitive understanding of time, but why would the HGA come back to the past to ensure you make it if your current trajectory leads to it anyway?

 

Sorry, nobody here but us simpletons:

 

He (The Master Therion Himself!) therefore said: "Let me declare this Work under this title: 'The obtaining of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel"', because the theory implied in these words is so patently absurd that only simpletons would waste much time in analysing it. (Aleister Crowley, Magick in Theory and Practice, Castle Books, ND, p. 20, Added parenthetical clarification and bolded text, ZYD)

 

By a spell that would certainly work in a Harry Potter novel, Ipso Facto, Ipsi Dixit, surely this must be true.

 

So first, this simpleton agrees with this:

 

My concept of the HGA is that there is a high level being assigned to you personally within this life, who is charged with the responsibility of helping you to stay in your self-assigned path.

 

and would recommend consulting:

 

Plato's Myth of Er from the Republic

 

Where Plato introduces the concepts of a chosen "life script" and an assigned guardian daimon. Certainly the notion of a guardian spirit is not unique to Platonism, but this is the point at which it becomes a part of the foundations of Philosophy, but I also strongly recommends that you follow the link, Daimonic Men, in this:

 

I assume that you are using "Daemonic" in its original meaning, which has nothing to do with "demons" in the usual sense of the word. Even Agrippa in his discussion of our guardian spirits uses Daemon in the Latin, and the Seventeenth Century translator used "demon" (Agrippa, Book Three, Chaps XXI & XXII) but many people reading this might not be familiar with the distinction and I bring this up to avoid misunderstanding. In antiquity Plato used the Greek daimon for our guardian spirit and referred to the true philosopher as a "Daimonic Man". This link will download an interesting short paper about:

 

Daimonic Men

 

There does, however, seem to be a class of beings that corresponds to the common notion of a demon, but confusing them with daimons, even the using the later Greek classification into "good" and "bad" daimons, i.e. agathodaimon and cacodaimon, there would still be a fundamental distinction that exists between a cacodaimon and a demon. In Classical Mythological terms it would be like the distinction between one of the administrative spirits of Hades rather than one of the residents of Tartarus.

 

To realize that Plato also considered that there might be such a thing as a Daimonic Man, as a possible state of philosophic development.

 

I would then point you back to my first post in this thread here:

 

The popularity of the concept of Guardian Angel in modern Neo-magic is due to Aleister Crowley.

 

. . .

 

The topic of Guadian Spirit was also an important one in Platonism, as according to Plato, Socrates professed to have one which guided him. The late middle Platonist Apulius of Madura, best know for his Metamorphoses or the Golden Ass, also wrote a work On the God of Socrates examining this in the light of Middle Platonic ideas.

 

Porphyry in his life of Plotinus recounts the following in relation to an evocation of Plotinus' guardian spirit:

 

"In fact Plotinus possessed by birth something more than is accorded to other men. An Egyptian priest who had arrived in Rome and, through some friend, had been presented to the philosopher, became desirous of displaying his powers to him, and he offered to evoke a visible manifestation of Plotinus' presiding spirit. Plotinus readily consented and the evocation was made in the Temple of Isis, the only place, they say, which the Egyptian could find pure in Rome.

 

At the summons a Divinity appeared, not a being of the spirit-ranks, and the Egyptian exclaimed: 'You are singularly graced; the guiding-spirit within you is not of the lower degree but a God.' It was not possible, however, to interrogate or even to contemplate this God any further, for the priest's assistant, who had been holding the birds to prevent them flying away, strangled them, whether through jealousy or in terror. Thus Plotinus had for indwelling spirit a Being of the more divine degree, and he kept his own divine spirit unceasingly intent upon that inner presence. It was this preoccupation that led him to write his treatise upon Our Tutelary Spirit (Enneads Three, Treatise Four, ZYD), an essay in the explanation of the differences among spirit-guides." (Emphasisadded, ZYD)

 

Which is why I quoted Crowley at the beginning of this, but more importantly to bring up the question of why Plotinus had a Guardian God and not a Guardian Daimon.

 

In these considerations "are many profound mysteries hidden". The main point is it avoid confusing guardian “beings” with higher “selves” and investigate what the relationship between them is. Leastwise that is what this simpleton thinks.

 

Meanwhile, this appeared from another simpleton, while I was working on the above:

 

Yes, this is confusing, due to our inadequate understanding of time. Within that context, the HGA could be thought of as a Final Cause in the Aristotelian sense, acting backwards in time, thus kindling the fire of the evolution whose eventual result it is.

 

The Great Attractor is a related concept in Chaos Theory.

 

and I consider it a good take on the matter.  I was going to at least point out that you do need to examine your ideas about time anyway, but will add to the above that moving one's model of space/time into a high dimensional framework and introducing the notion of formal and final causes, works wonders for getting rid of apparent riddles like retro-causality and free will.

 

 

P.S. Nungali, all of the above goes for you too, but I am not done with you.

[Nungali]

Thanks for pointing to the Myth of Er ... I was wondering what Plato I should read  next ... 

 

 

 

as far as 'not being being done with me '  ....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2015 by Nungali

[Zhongyongdaoist]

(... I have had the same thing all my life ... even as a youth not popular because I hung out with elements of the ' wrong' crowd at times - apparently motorcycles and surfboards were not to be mixed ?)

 

I understand much better now, knowing that growing up in a third world country like Australia, you didn't receive true teachings at an early age. Otherwise you would have known that surfboards and motorcycles do not mix:

 

 

A land so isolated that it must have its own weremarsupials:

 

 

Probably growing up eating insects in vege-mite sandwiches, or were they, vege-aphid sandwiches? Well, in any case, the Earl of Sandwich would have been suitably dismayed.

 

I will bear your deprived background in mind, but also please be mindful that it is for your own good.

[Nungali]

Still confused ... as it was in Australia that I was admonished for mixing them


... yes, the sad fact is that I am a 3rd class citizen within the context of a 3rd world country. I guess I just never fitted in to my home town beach ... Cronulla it was ... cant think why I seemed out of place in my own town ;

Oh hang on there was one guy that I related to, he punched his way through this crowd and shielded the guy on the table with his own body until the police got there and told the guy; "Dont worry, this will be over in a minute. The police are on their way."

So ... we ain't all bad




It must be wonderful to live in a '1st world country' ... where stuff like that never happens ?

And since we have now got into posting silly vids that are way off topic :
 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY



ETA You did mean depr i ved, didnt you ?

Edited February 24, 2015 by Nungali

[BaguaKicksAss]

A lot of concepts in here that sound more like an ego/self getting in the way than HGA guidance. 

 

Though on the internet these days, everything is HGA, and everything one combines with the HGA is all good...

 

imo, not everything is HGA, it is not our higher self, etc. etc.

 

I think I'll stop here .  I sometimes tend to rant a lot...  Just a caution of not assuming things/feelings/experiences/info you recieve/etc. are one's HGA; this will bring the magician a long way. 

[FraterUFA]

A lot of concepts in here that sound more like an ego/self getting in the way than HGA guidance. 

 

Indeed.

 

UFA

[9th]

"I do not know what you call 'cosmic consciousness,' " said G., "it is a vague and indefinite term; anyone can call anything he likes by it. In most cases what is called 'cosmic consciousness' is simply fantasy, associative daydreaming connected with intensified work of the emotional center. Sometimes it comes near to ecstasy but most often it is merely a subjective emotional experience on the level of dreams. But even apart from all this before we can speak of 'cosmic consciousness' we must define in general what consciousness is...

 

 

'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized.' In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there is no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken.

 

"Theoretically he can, but practically it is almost impossible because as soon as a man awakens for a moment and opens his eyes, all the forces that caused him to fall asleep begin to act upon him with tenfold energy and he immediately falls asleep again, very often dreaming that he is awake or is awakening.

 

"There are certain states in ordinary sleep in which a man wants to awaken but cannot. He tells himself that he is awake but, in reality, he continues to sleep—and this can happen several times before he finally awakes. But in ordinary sleep, once he is awake, he is in a different state; in hypnotic sleep the case is otherwise; there are no objective characteristics, at any rate not at the beginning of awakening; a man cannot pinch himself in order to make sure that he is not 'hypnotized'.

 

"Only a man who fully realizes the difficulty of awakening can understand the necessity of long and hard work in order to awake.

 

"Speaking in general, what is necessary to awake a sleeping man? A good shock is necessary. But when a man is fast asleep one shock is not enough. A long period of continual shocks is needed. Consequently there must be somebody to administer these shocks. I have said before that if a man wants to awaken he must hire somebody who will keep on shaking him for a long time. But whom can he hire if everyone is asleep? A man will hire somebody to wake him up but this one also falls asleep. What is the use of such a man? And a man who can really keep awake will probably refuse to waste his time in waking others up: he may have his own much more important work to do.

 

[noonespecial]

It's a fancy term for God; or the part of you that is part of God, neither/nor, but not an angel per say...in fact that term is misleading.

 

Maybe read some Corbin or Evola for the 'bigger picture' - it's good to break out of the Golden Dawn/Crowley box.

[BaguaKicksAss]

It's a fancy term for God; or the part of you that is part of God, neither/nor, but not an angel per say...in fact that term is misleading.

 

Maybe read some Corbin or Evola for the 'bigger picture' - it's good to break out of the Golden Dawn/Crowley box.

 

I would completely and entirely disagree.  Well aside from the perspective of every single thing is god, including my coffee table.  The tradition comes from much much earlier than the GD/Crowley approach (and neither are my bag of tea at all).  Have you read the Abramelin books?  The Greek Magical Papyri? 

[Nungali]

..... and all the posts here that tagged the concept throughout history and through different cultures (with references)  ? 

 

Breaking the concept out of the GD / Crowley box is what we have been doing (although the term and wording of the post topic term HGA is going to be inclusive of the GD / AC view as well).

Edited March 23, 2015 by Nungali

[BaguaKicksAss]

..... and all the posts here that tagged the concept throughout history and through different cultures (with references)  ? 

 

Breaking the concept out of the GD / Crowley box is what we have been doing (although the term and wording of the post topic term HGA is going to be inclusive of the GD / AC view as well).

 

Well I have to say that beleifs such as "once one hits portal it is Abramelin time" or "magickians are supposed to do the Abramelin rite" are quite a good thing I must say.

 

Though also there is the whole shortcut can do it in 2 months without changing one's life much approach, I think doesn't quite go as far as 6-18 months, with quite a bit of seclusion and hundreds of hours of practice.