Holy Guardian Angel

[9th]

and Pythagoras too. Did they get their knowledge from Egypt or India? Or Persia?

 

Yes, yes and yes, and China as well. He was one of the first to make such a round-trip journey part of the "great work" in the western tradition. The term "philosophy" was supposedly coined by him. It translates as "love of wisdom".

[Nungali]

...

 

A very great many thanks to Zhongyongdaoist for the above material. Plenty of stuff to keep me busy.

 

Reading through some of your other material I was surprised to find that few know of Plato's mysticism. It's quite clear, I would have thought. And of course, Socrates and Pythagoras too. Did they get their knowledge from Egypt or India? Or Persia? I guess this kind of stuff was disseminated throughout the ancient world. I wonder where it originated?

 

 

...

This is a question that fascinates me too. In some cases it can be shown (or it used to be shown, I am not really up to date on new findings on this) that some of the earliest Greek philosophers had Egyptian teachers, and even some of the 'Greeks' were actually Egyptians and their names are Greek renderings of an Egyptian name.

 

 

But, of course Egypt is not the source of everything. There is always much 'cross-fertilisation' always going on in the development of human cultures. One could say most systems are 'chop suey' ( a term I have adopted from a ‘philosopher ‘ here).

 

IMO there is no 'pure doctrine'. Different people had a big input into the different Egyptian cultures from an early stage, to the extent that latter kingdoms may not have known the internals of the teachings of the Old Kingdoms .

 

 

I believe there were strong influences from various parts of the world before the Indian and Persian Empires but I have yet to tag the first development of ideas like reincarnation , date it and cross-reference it to the time line of development in Greek Philosophy. Most Zoroastrian influence seems to be around the time of the Neo-Platonists but I am not sure where “re-incarnation’ enters Greek Philosophy. The earliest Avesta sources have souls being absorbed (or returning to ) the ‘Soul of the Bull’ , which Joseph Campbell relates to early hunter societies ‘sending ‘ the taken animals soul back to the heard … but I have yet to find a ‘redispersal’ process in the Avestas. But then again I have only brushed their surface.

 

Many of the ideas behind 'Forms' and hierarchies of 'spiritual beings' originate in Zoroastrianism and the pre-Zoroastrian religion (Mazdayasni). Also see;

 

( http://www.iranchamber.com/religions/articles/pre_zoroastrian_religions.php )

 

 

In the Avesta, the names of the Yazatas are also names for core values and ideals. For instance, as an ‘angel’ in the Avesta, Mithra is the guardian of the values and qualities associated with friendship. In day-to-day language, Mithra means a friend, the ideals of loyal, trustworthy, caring and kind friendship and the qualities of kindness, helpfulness and benevolence. As a core value Mithra is the value of keeping of promises.

At times these were perceived as ‘qualities’. Writing from the perspective of Greeks who worshipped multiple anthropomorphic gods during his time, Herodotus (c. 430 BCE) says: "They (the Persians) have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly. This comes, I think, from their not believing the gods to have the same nature with men, as the Greeks imagine."

But over times things change … based on various other renderings of scripture;

 

 

Zoroastrian comic anyone?

 

آشنایی با اساتیر ملل (انگلیسی) : تاريخ، فرهنگ و

http://redhue.ir/img.php?image=2095_yazatas1_4vk0.jpg )

 

Or by blending both, like the Amesha Spentas (amesha meaning eternal & spenta meaning brilliance and beneficence) as attributes of God :

•Vohu Mano, the high mind (creation was caused by a divine thought)

•Asha, cosmic order and universal laws

•Khshathra, dominion

•Armaiti, equanimity

•Haurvatat, ultimate wholeness

•Amertat, immortality

In a further attempt to understand God and how God interfaces with God's creation, the six qualities and attributes, the Amesha Spentas, were thought of as archangels - abstract extensions of God - each associated with an aspect of creation.

 

Of course there are the inverse qualities … the ‘divs’ (a word that perhaps relates to the original split between religious factions with the ‘Deva worshipers’?)

The Shahnameh goes on to list in its pages nine principle vices called divs:

• Az - greed

• Niaz - desire

• Khashm - wrath

• Rashk - envy

• Nang - dishonour

• Kin - vengeance

• Nammaam - tell-tale

• Do-ruy - two-faced

• Napak-din - heretic

I can see a clear system of ethical philosophy here and that may have influenced the Greeks but I am not sure about ideas of reincarnation though (I am no scholar … perhaps someone here knows more about these developments and time lines)

 

Perhaps it is tied in with earlier Egyptian beliefs but they seem to have contributed more to latter theology in the area of concepts of ‘resurrection’.

 

Where and when do the Vedas first mention the idea and when and where do the Greek Philosophers mention it?

[Nungali]

...

 

Thank you for your concern, Isimsiz Biri. There are very many things I could add.

 

Perhaps "entered me" is an ill choice of words.

 

But does not the "Holy Spirit" "enter" into some?

 

This happened largely in the imaginal world, yet was very real and definite.

 

I believe it was a blessing.

 

It was accompanied by a physical healing.

 

Your caveats are well noted, though.

 

But I shan't be seeking an exorcism any time soon, thank you very much.

 

 

On edit: I'll be bowing out of this thread. Please don't be upset if I don't address comments or questions directed to me personally. And please continue the fascinating discussion!

 

 

...

a shame as I was enjoying your posts (and attitude) , try not to let the ignorant jeering of others effect you. I can understand though, your reluctance, considering others attitudes, to communicate further about something that is the “ Holy of Holies, whereof each man is his own High Priest, and none knoweth the Name of his brother's God, or the Rite that invokes Him “ [Crowley. Liber Samekh. ]

Edited November 11, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

This happened largely in the imaginal world, yet was very real and definite.

 

I like this too ... some may see it as an invalidating statement but I do not. To me I agree with Patrick Harpur on this one (and many others ) best described in a title of one of his books. 'The Philosopher's Secret Fire - A History of the Imagination'.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Yes, yes and yes, and China as well. He was one of the first to make such a round-trip journey part of the "great work" in the western tradition. The term "philosophy" was supposedly coined by him. It translates as "love of wisdom".

I would like the details on this ... also the content of what the earliest Greek philosophers believed , before these trips. My comments above relate to influences that CAME INTO Greece and Egypt.

[Seth Ananda]

Your body is your private area. No positive being enters your body. This includes Holy Spirit too.

Um.. Invocation?

 

Theurgy work is inviting the gods into our beings, to full possession. Which brings incredible benefits. It is highly positive.

 

Are you sure you are posting in the right section. Theurgy is a crucial ingredient of Hermetics.

[Nungali]

I think confusion comes about as the 'soul' is seen as one indivisible substance in some traditions and religions and as the one thing that should 'inhabit' our spirit. [ 'Khu, 'Khabs' and all that ], Also that 'spirit' can relate to 'objective identity' for some.

 

My view is that 'soul' (subjective ... that is my soul, and its intersection with the 'World Soul' - 'objective soul' or Anima Mundi) is PART of what makes up my 'spirit' and that is PART of what makes up (with all the complexities of the Personna) that strange idea I keep having of ...'Me'.

 

That seems to make some uncomfortable ... (like bed bugs). I think it is an expression of the two formulas a of 'banishing' ; the first is the classic circle 'I am in here and they are out there' formula. One relies on a type of 'protective dualism'. This level of consciousness is involved with battle (one sees it in how some view their work on the inner planes ... slaying demons cleaning up the lower astral by instilling violent energy, I have read it in books about supposed experiences in the 'Aethers' - some times not even written as subjective experience but saying this is what YOU must do ... defeat this being, who looks like this, with this weapon, or you shall not pass to level x ( astral dungeons and dragons perhaps but one hopes a preliminary step to greater things) and fixing the outside but of course in these realms these demons are just parts of the 'self' and one is battling the self.

 

The next stage is to open the circle and balance opposites by absorption IMO an advanced and more desirable formula and outcome ... and even more possibly (if I dare say ) more apt for a forum of this title in a site with this title. But it does require some art ... and can be dangerous to try (well at least naïve to try) if not balanced yourself or understanding the energies involved. Instead of slaying the energies (a type of repression that will resurface again anyway, providing an 'escape loop' for the ego- which is no escape at all, just a trapped cycle of de/illusion) one can use their energies when they are balanced, and take their rightful place in the self

 

I also believe , in this day and age, and for me, the divine soul (both subjective and objective) is lost and is in need of finding and 'redeeming'. Apparently, according to many, if not most, Western mythological themes it isn't just me and it isn't just now.

 

Usually it is in the mythic form ( various forms, juxtaposed, repeated, modulated and inverted) of the female (Anima) which needs rescuing, awakening, releasing (from towers) and saving (from dragons and ogres) either within a dynamic of the active (knight) ego (hence the 'self' or the ego, to an extent 'choosing' to take the journey or having it thrust upon him or stumbling upon it) or the soul itself sending messages and assistants to help the ego/self come to a realisation (via omens, forces in nature 'coincidences' ( ) ; see the Myth of Psyche (she seems hopelessly lost but animals and natural forces come to assist her).

 

Perhaps this idea of the soul and the HGA have some relationship?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Nungali

[Isimsiz Biri]

Um.. Invocation?

 

Theurgy work is inviting the gods into our beings, to full possession. Which brings incredible benefits. It is highly positive.

 

Are you sure you are posting in the right section. Theurgy is a crucial ingredient of Hermetics.

 

 

First of all, thank you for teaching me the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgy

 

I really heard it first time.

 

If you look at the "Definitions" Section of the above given link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgy#Definitions I could not exactly see a definiton of "Bodiless beings entering your astral body" type.

 

Let me clarify once again, if a bodiless being is attached to your astral body or worse, it lives inside your astral body like a parasite, this is most obviously NEGATIVE. We have seen this phenomenon before. Usually, the mediums have this problem as their receptive channel is open. From one medium of our group, once upon a time, nine independent negative beings were extracted.

 

I can talk on this subject from evening till morning but I think you got the idea.

 

Am I in the right section? This question is often asked such that "Are you in the right forum?" Looking at the current status of people, my answer is definitely "Yes!".

 

Thank you.

 

P.S. Needless to say, a positive spirit or an angel never enters the astral body of a human being. Never.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Nungali]

Surely this is a blurred distinction between something that can be so basically expressed as a 'bad' spirit or a 'good' spirit.

 

 

Basic Hermetic groundwork in those areas should include IMO , at least (from a qualified spiritual, mystical {and successful} Hermetic perspective) Swedenborgh and (from a qualified scientific medical psychological psychiatric and successfully professional level) Dr, Wilson VanDusen.

 

Both came to the same conclusions about ‘good and bad spirits’ and were able to classify, communicate and in many cases modify and balance them by ‘invoking their opposites’.

 

it looks like, from my perspective S.A. realises the above but I.B. seems to think they can only be bad, Cannot a good and helpful 'bodiless being entering your astral body' be helpful ... even if , or especially if, there are bad bodiless beings or spirits that have already entered or surfaced ?

Edited November 12, 2013 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

My goodness nungali, you are a learned fellow!

 

Your insights are strongly in accord with my own.

 

I especially liked the picture of the Gods in Zoroastrianism;

 

http://redhue.ir/img.php?image=2095_yazatas1_4vk0.jpg

 

Zoroastrianism is so fascinating, isn't it.

 

I liked the figures in the picture.

 

I did some research on the figures of Atar and Asha.

 

The one named "Asha" looked especially familiar.

 

The Human Torch?

 

Or the Dread Dormammu?

 

Flame on!

 

I wrote a poem once.

 

I entitled it;

 

 

Peerless Invocation of Thoth-Hermanubis.

 

ps Where did the ancients get their wisdom? "Atlantis", perhaps?

 

...

Edited November 12, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Nungali]

THE AUGOEIDES. *

* From a letter of Fra P.

 

Lytton calls him Adonai in 'Zanoni,' and I often use this name in the note-books.

 

Abramelin calls him Holy Guardian Angel. I adopt this:

 

1. Because Abramelin's system is so simple and effective.

 

2. Because since all theories of the universe are absurd it is better to talk in the language of one which is patently absurd, so as to mortify the metaphysical man.

 

3. Because a child can understand it.

 

Theosophists call him the Higher Self, Silent Watcher, or Great Master.

 

The Golden Dawn calls him the Genius.

 

Gnostics say the Logos.

 

Zoroaster talks about uniting all these symbols into the form of a Lion --- see Chaldean Oracles. *

 

*A similar Fire flashingly extending through the rushings of Air, or a Fire formless whence cometh the Image of a Voice, or even a flashing Light abounding, revolving, whirling forth, crying aloud. Also there is the vision of the fire-flashing Courser of Light, or also a Child, borne aloft on the shoulders of the Celestial Steed, fiery, or clothed with gold, or naked, or shooting with the bow shafts of Light, and standing on the shoulders of the horse; then if thy meditation prolongeth itself, thou shalt unite all these symbols into the Form of a Lion."

 

Anna Kingsford calls him Adonai (Clothed with the Sun). Buddhists call him Adi-Buddha --- (says H. P. B.)

 

The Bhagavad-Gita calls him Vishnu (chapter xi.).

 

The Yi King calls him "The Great Person."

 

The Qabalah calls him Jechidah. *

 

We also get metaphysical analysis of His nature, deeper and deeper according to the subtlety of the writer; for this vision --- it is all one same phenomenon, variously coloured by our varying Ruachs *

 

* Ruach: the third form, the Mind, the Reasoning Power, that which possesses the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

 

--- is, I believe, the first and the last of all Spiritual Experience. For though He is attributed to Malkuth, *

 

* Malkuth: the tenth Sephira.

 

and the Door of the Path of His overshadowing, He is also in Kether (Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth in Kether --- "as above, so beneath"), and the End of the "Path of the Wise" is identity with Him.

 

So that while he is the Holy Guardian Angel, He is also Hua *

 

*The supreme and secret title of Kether.

 

and the Tao.*

 

* The great extreme of the Yi King.

 

For since Intra Nobis Regnum deI *

 

* I.N.R.I.

 

all things are in Ourself, and all Spiritual Experience is a more of less complete Revelation of Him.

 

Yet it is only in the Middle Pillar*

 

*Or "Mildness," the Pillar on the right being that of "Mercy," and that on the left "Justice." These refer to the Qabalistic Tree of Life.

 

that His manifestation is in any way perfect.

 

The Augoedes invocation is the whole thing. Only it is so difficult; one goes along through all the fifty gates of Binah *

 

* Binah: the third Sephira, the Understanding. She is the Supernal Mother, as distinguished from Malkuth, the Inferior Mother. (Nun) is attributed to the Understanding; its value is 50. Vide "The Book of Concealed Mystery," sect. 40.

 

at once, more or less illuminated, more or less deluded. But the First and the Last is this Augoeides Invocation.

 

[snaffled from someone else's work]

 

..

Edited November 12, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

...

 

My goodness nungali, you are a learned fellow!

 

Not really ... I can see a bit further sometimes as I stand on the shoulders of my teachers ... and I try to see the similarities where things and people can relate to and understand each other ( Mr 'chop suey' )

 

There is one or two learned fellow 'lurking' about her though

 

 

Your insights are strongly in accord with my own.

 

I especially liked the picture of the Gods in Zoroastrianism;

 

http://redhue.ir/img.php?image=2095_yazatas1_4vk0.jpg

 

Zoroastrianism is so fascinating, isn't it.

YES! I could go on and on ... their Zoroastrian cultural heritage site is a gas.

 

 

 

I liked the figures in the picture.

 

I did some research on the figures of Atar and Asha.

 

The one named "Asha" looked especially familiar.

 

The Human Torch?

 

Or the Dread Dormammu?

 

Flame on!

A friend saw that picture and freaked out as she had visions of him ... she thought he was some type of ghost of a fireman that had died in the burnt out building next door ... but that didn't add up for her .

 

Also one maybe should realise that that pic may be drawn in a certain way to make that connection (okay I am cynical as well ) - it is a comic book after all

 

 

 

I wrote a poem once.

 

I entitled it;

 

Yes ... I have a poem ; 'Angel of Light' (I will get around to posting it in mystical poetry thread at some stage

 

 

 

 

 

Peerless Invocation of Thoth-Hermanubis.

 

ps Where did the ancients get their wisdom? "Atlantis", perhaps?

 

...

Not a fan of that idea ... as it just makes me ask "Where did the 'Atlanteans' get it from then

 

How about we acknowledge the genius and brilliance of the ancients (like the Old Kingdom Egyptians ) in and of themselves they were 'ordinary people' using their potential ... I think the western ego tries to attribute alien technology and stone cutting mirrors and all that stuff as we just cant conceive that they DID do it with the tools and minds at their disposal as our tools and minds just aren't up to scratch .... and we don't like to take a hit at our modern egos ... we ARE wrecking things you know

 

(Australian Aboriginal culture preserved themselves their culture and lived in harmony with their environment without harming it for over 40,000 years ... we have nearly wrecked ours in a few hundred ... how great is modern man ( sarcasm with the cynicism now)

[9th]

I would like the details on this ... also the content of what the earliest Greek philosophers believed , before these trips. My comments above relate to influences that CAME INTO Greece and Egypt.

 

There is no documentation of "philosophy" as such before pythagoras, since he supposedly invented the term itself. He was the first known philosopher to make this journey of collecting wisdom from the east, then returning to synthesize it with his own knowledge in his own culture. His practices were more akin to mysticism as we would call it today - while in the generations that followed, classical philosophy slowly took a hard turn into semantics, politics, ethics, sociology, etc. Plato attempted to expand on the pythagorean tradition and was moderately successful, but it was diluted with these other concerns mentioned above. Pythagorean tradition had more in common with the Orphics and other cults based on participation in the mysteries - but was conceptually focused on mathematics, geometry, harmony, ratio, proportion and so forth instead of mythic dramas and characters. They both believed in reincarnation, and that the soul needed to purify itself throughout many lives in order to ascend into the realm of cosmic perfection. They both had very specific practices for daily living.

 

The pre-olympian greek mythos regards the so-called titans: uranus (heaven), gaia (earth), and their children kronos (time), hyperion (high one).. etc. So there were greek mystics and so forth going back quite far into the cloudy mycenaean era, and even much earlier than that (see photo below).

 

The Orphics seem to be a group founded on participation in the mysteries, since Orpheus and Eurydice is another riff on the Persephone myth. The "resurrection" of going to the underworld and returning continually is an ongoing theme - especially for an agricultural society. It has been said that the Eleusinian mysteries were already old in 1500BC when they began to attach the character of Demeter and the myth of Persephone to the seasonal knowledge that is revealed during the initiation ritual. It is also well known that the home of the oracle of Delphi was originally a temple of Gaia before being converted to a temple of Apollo.

 

Since the rite of initiation in the Eleusinian mysteries was dependent on the specialized kykeon (sacred drink) its possible the greek mysteries relate (either directly or indirectly) to the rites of Soma (rigveda) and Haoma (zoroastrian) in the nearby mid-east. You may have already seen in the other thread where it is indicated the avestan "Ahura" is the same as the vedic "Asura". Just as the vedic "Deva" is the same as the avestan "Daeva". Soma and Haoma are sacred drinks from this period of shared knowledge, before the persian and indian cultures separated along with the resulting political fallout which cast each of these mythic beings in opposing "good/bad" scenarios.

 

It depends on how closely you want to look, but you can find clarity on certain things by investigating that general region around that general period:

 

[Nungali]

Wow ! Thank you !

 

( " .... and these are a few of my favourite things .... " )

[Xienkula1]

.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Xienkula1

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Hi Nungali!

 

Not a fan of Atlantis? That's fair enough. I was using the term to refer to a generic prehistoric civilisation.

 

But on further consideration I decided that there was a transcendent stream of wisdom teachings, existing beyond time and space which was typically received through direct transmission, and that this has been the case throughout history.

 

I too, am interested in Hermetics and the symbolism of Egypt, Greece and the Indian subcontinent.

 

I like to adopt a synthetic approach.

...

Edited December 7, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Nungali]

...

Hi Nungali!

 

Not a fan of Atlantis? That's fair enough. I was using the term to refer to a generic prehistoric civilisation.

Not a fan of some concepts of Atlantis but I think a generic prehistoric civilisation is targeted in ancient history and looking at all the evidence it seems that Santorini is the most likely candidate.

 

 

But on further consideration I decided that there was a transcendent stream of wisdom teachings, existing beyond time and space which was typically received through direct transmission, and that this has been the case throughout history.

I agree. My aboriginal elder and guardian friend is full of such knowledge. His mother didn't even know what a Koala was when she first saw one - that's one generation back. It would be impossible to learn what he has learned in his short life time. he was taught by the earth ... and this gives me hope ... as if we loose knowledge we can find it again.

 

Patrick Harpur sums it up wonderfully in the last paragraph of his book 'Daimonic Reality' (at the end of an absolutely brilliant Epilogue) ; " However, no matter how beleaguered the tradition becomes, it can never die out because daimonic reality needs no tradition to stay alive. It is always, and constantly, alive and able to re-ignite and renew itself in every generation, quiet apart from any tradtition, through spontaneous apparitions, visions and otherworld journeys."

 

I too, am interested in Hermetics and the symbolism of Egypt, Greece and the Indian subcontinent.

 

I like to adopt a synthetic approach.

...

I think that originally all those traditions came about by a similar approach (if you mean a synthesis)..

Edited December 9, 2013 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Demonic reality?

 

Now you got me chucklin'.

 

Is'nt it lovely how we are getting along?

 

My respect for you grows.

 

I'll have to check out that Patrick Harpur fellow.

 

Holy apparitions, Batman!

...

[Nungali]

...

Demonic reality?

 

Now you got me chucklin'.

Its a funny reality Harpur lists a set of strange occurances, different places, different people, he doesn't say, just they are different. When we read them they sound like a typical UFO encounter ... no it was a group of tribal people and they say it was a communication from their ancestors. Another scene ... oh that HAS to be about 60 years ago and sound like an Irish folk tale about the little people .... no its a UFO encounter ... and so on.

 

Harpur has defined the experiences and explained them with his theory of Daimonic Reality ... note; not demonic reality! (I had to go back and correct that ??? hmmm ... spellcheck perhaps ?)

 

He also gives an interesting take on the child services abduction cases ; people come around and say there is a report of child abuse and they are taking the children ... the parents nearly comply but don't do it, after they are gone they 'wake up' and report what happened ... they were in a near hypnotic state and nearly handed the kids over, no they didn't even ask to see ID. what did they look like? They cant remember.

 

Then there is another case ... and another. O! there is aging out there, police and community are on alert ... then more and more reports 250 in one week ... obviously police realise its too many ... sometimes there are witnesses other times the report seems false ,,, are people imagining it now ... but by now some people have started doing it themselves; going to a house and saying I am from child protection and your child is in danger and I have to take them (some got caught, they couldn't really explain why they did it. That is an 'outbreak' of Daimonic reality. You might see a pixie, I might be with you and see it too (or not) maybe you can even catch it and put it in a cage ... will it be there in the morning ? No. will the cage be broken? No.

 

Its all about the world of the lost soul as well (as soul was divorced from spirit in our culture long ago)

 

A shaman deals in Daimonic Reality ... they can retrieve lost souls. Its like the dream world or the dreamtime ... its when the subjective unconscious forces break out into the objective world or the objective collective unconscious or the Anima Mundi effecting the physical world ... burns on UFO 'victims' or for the religious; stigmata.

 

It is the otherword between the 'spiritual' world of the religionist and the physical world of the materialist that partakes of and effects both.

 

It can be here and there at the same time and multiply and invert itself in reoccurring themes ( as quantum physics is discovering) ... and of course it is the world of myth ... where themes invert and transpose and play out the same scenarios until we MUST pay attention to soul. When it is suppressed further it mutates and can demand attention in 'monstrous' froms.

 

yes it goes on and on ... like I do. But do check him out

 

'The Philosoper's Secret Fire - A history of the Imagination.'

 

' Daimonic Reality - A Field Guide to the Other World.'

 

Mercurius - The Marriage of Heaven and Earth.'

 

 

I am sure that ' the HGA' and 'HGA experience' are intimately connected with this world ... it might even be a form of ourselves that resides in that world concurrent with our existence in this one.

 

 

 

Is'nt it lovely how we are getting along?

Well I am not that bad ... as 'some' seem to be trying to make out

 

 

My respect for you grows.

 

I'll have to check out that Patrick Harpur fellow.

 

Holy apparitions, Batman!

...

 

 

Batman ? Another concept straight out of daimonic reality ! That's why he is so popular ... resonates.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Nungali

[Isimsiz Biri]

Batman ? Another concept straight out of daimonic reality ! That's why he is so popular ... resonates.

 

If you make "daimonic" as "demonic" it really fits well.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Yes, yes, yes and yes, Nungali!

 

I'm not sure I have anything to add.

 

Mercurius indeed.

 

I think I shall pick up a couple of those books.

 

I spotted you from afar, like a long lost friend.

 

I'm just not sure where to go from here.

 

I am reticent to give the details of my experiences.

 

I never tried to do nuthin'.

 

It just happened.

 

...

[Nungali]

If you make "daimonic" as "demonic" it really fits well.

Yes it does ... in some circumstances. The term (as outlined fairly extensively above - and by others in this thread and others )- originates in Platonic Philosophy as Daemonic.

 

 

It had a totally different aspect before the Christian Church changed the idea. They seemed to have denied certain aspects of soul and subsumed them into their concept of 'spirit' thus making a two-fold distinction; 'spiritual' or religious reality on the one hand and physical on the other hand.

 

I would say 'demonic' is a concept that arises when one refuses to accept daimonic and daemonic.

 

“ The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daimōn denotes a spirit or divine power, much like the Latin genius or numen. Daimōn most likely came from the Greek verb daiesthai (to divide, distribute). The Greek conception of a daimōns notably appears in the works of Plato, where it describes the divine inspiration of Socrates. To distinguish the classical Greek concept from its later Christian interpretation, the former is anglicized as either daemon or daimon rather than demon.

 

The Greek term does not have any connotations of evil or malevolence. In fact, εὐδαιμονία eudaimonia, (lit. good-spiritedness) means happiness. The term first acquired its negative connotations in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible, which drew on the mythology of ancient Semitic religions. This was then inherited by the Koine text of the New Testament. The Western medieval and neo-medieval conception of a demon (see the Medieval grimoire called the Ars Goetia) derives seamlessly from the ambient popular culture of Late (Roman) Antiquity. The Hellenistic "daemon" eventually came to include many Semitic and Near Eastern gods as evaluated by Christianity. “ [Wiki]

 

Harpur (and I) use the specific spelling of daimonic to distinguish this further development of the idea; which appears to be a 'blend' of Jungian psychology with an understanding of the patterning of mythology and a collation of 'unusual' other-worldly experiences and events varied through place and time, to examine the recurrent themes plus an incorporation of the historical ideas as expressed in post 148 above.

 

 

Now these are not really subjects the church (or religion) specialises in ... so the response there (to these undeniable human experience that bridges time and culture ... although the form may be different the content and symbology and theme is from the same' palette' ) is to either attribute them to the 'good spirit', religion god prophets saints and miracles or the bad, 'works of the devil' satan and 'demons'.

 

 

I feel a study of the works of Emanuel Swedenborg are fairly essential in the understanding of when this process can get out of hand in an individual .

 

I recommend his works [Emanuel Swedenborg (1688 – 1772) was fluent in 9 languages, wrote 150 works in 17 sciences, expert in 7 crafts, a musician, a Member of Parliament and a mining engineer. He came up with the first theory of nebular hypothesis, wrote extensive works on metallurgy, algebra and calculus, mapped several areas of the brain and ductless glands, suggested the particle structure of magnets, designed a glider and a submarine and engineered the world’s largest dry-dock. He then took on psychology and religion with extensive exploration into the ‘hypnogogic’ state. He led a successful and productive life and claimed daily intercourse with spirits. He appeared to have psychic powers, wrote 12 volumes on the psychological meanings hidden in Genesis and Exodus and (of course) was tried as a heretic and had his books banned in his native country - Sweden. ]

In tandem with the work of Dr Wilson Van Dusen [ Wilson Van Dusen, a clinical psychologist, undertook research and observation of people with mental illness. All the people involved hallucinated and included chronic schizophrenics. He discovered after working with patients for many years that it was possible to speak through the patient to various entities that seemed to ‘inhabit’ some patient’s hallucinations. He came to several conclusions (which are set out below) and later encountered the work of Swedenborg and was struck by the similarity of Swedenborg’s teaching about hierarchies of spirits and his own results in psycho-analytic research. He later gave lectures to professionals and laymen ( including people with, or who had recovered from, mental illness ) on his findings. He reports that he was well received by people with these problems and their stories also backed up his findings, leading him to think that his research was perhaps more accurate than others had suggested as they said that his line of therapy or questioning of the patients had prompted them to supply information and behaviour to him to support his theories. In having recovered patients agree with him on their own experiences who had never been treated by him led him to think that this was a broader phenomenon outside his range of treatments.

 

“Out of my professional role as a clinical psychologist in a state mental hospital and my own personal interest, I set out to describe as faithfully as possible mental patients’ experiences of hallucinations. A discovery four years ago helped me to get a relatively rich and consistent picture of the patients’ experiences. Although I noticed some similarities with Swedenborg’s descriptions of the relationship of man to spirits it was only three years after all the major findings on hallucinations had been made that the striking similarity between what Twentieth-century patients describe and Swedenborg’s Eighteenth-Century accounts became more apparent to me … I found that Swedenborg’s system not only is an almost perfect fit with patients’ experiences, but even more impressively, accounts for otherwise quiet puzzling aspects of hallucinations.” (VanDusen) ]

Edited December 9, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

...

 

Yes, yes, yes and yes, Nungali!

 

I'm not sure I have anything to add.

 

Mercurius indeed.

 

I think I shall pick up a couple of those books.

 

I spotted you from afar, like a long lost friend.

 

I'm just not sure where to go from here.

 

I am reticent to give the details of my experiences.

If it floats your boat check out the above posts references ... also your experience may not be that unusual ... it might be a natural part of the overall human experience that in our society may be repressed (the usual response from the 'spiritual / religious perspective is; you are Holy and Blessed { hard to get that sanction} or somehow bad or evil and effected by 'demons' and from the material perspective you are ; delusional / imaginative, lying, ... or, perhaps, more charitable ; confused in perception {the old 'swamp gas' or 'Venus' sighting} or 'projecting from your unconscious' - which is interesting as 'projecting from the unconscious' that physically effects material reality is exactly what I am talking about - the difference here is we are looking at an objective external 'unconscious' that can project into and alter and change physical material reality ).

 

If you want to discuss it but not in public you are welcome to PM me .

 

I never tried to do nuthin'.

 

It just happened.

yes, that is a way of it manifesting. When one encounters the otherworld (through vision, physical experience, mythical enactment, experience, initiation, etc.) it can happen in a variety of ways;

 

One actively seeks it ( e.g. deciding to join an initiatory body)

 

One stumbles upon it (the clearing in the forest ... following the 'magical animal' , etc)

 

"Forced into it' ( tribal or family requirement - )

 

'Dharma' ( essential shamanic nature ... 'mind configuration')

Edited December 9, 2013 by Nungali

[RiverSnake]

IME as of late....one thing I have found which is a major misconception regarding th HGA is that you need to do a giant ceremony or retreat in order to develop a relationship with it. It seems that K&C can be a very gradual process that doesn't have to require a lot of pomp and circumstances and it can be integrated into our daily affairs and the time frame can be extended ad infinitum. One needn't do a 30 day or 1 year retreat.

 

All it seems to take is a sincere prayer. There seems to be an idea that you have to achieve K&C before you can actually work with the spirit. IME as of late this is not true. I have integrated working with my HGA into almost every aspect of my practice and even ask my HGA for assistance with mundane things if it relates to my higher purpose. It is a gradual and gentler integration rather than being compressed into one big hiatus....there's not neccesarily this big forced rush like the abramelin right makes it out to be. I worked regularly in this area but I have not achieved K&C. Anyways.....that's my rant for the day.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited February 11, 2014 by OldChi

[BaguaKicksAss]

It's just an even stronger connection (that never fades) is all . Also the Abramelin is not only about the HGA, that is just the popularized aspect... Yes the HGA is/was always there, we just get in our own way. I think when one makes contact the HGA says "it's about time" LOL.

 

I see it similar to folks who did spiritual retreats in caves for a year or few, not necessary per se, but still you get a lot out of it.

 

There is the problem that many magicians tend to fool themselves about said contact and don't do nearly enough work. I don't feel this is the case with you obviously, but every magician online on those forums feels they have done the whole HGA thing, emphasis on *done*.

 

Nice work btw.