The Way (道 i.e.Tao) of Living

[ChiDragon]

Let's discuss our way of life, according to our values and our attitudes, to find out how far off the mark we are in relation to the eternal Way (道 i.e.Tao).

 

John Lennon's Way (道) of Living, as told in his song "Imagine" would be as follows:

 

No Heaven, no Hell, and above us only sky. (Meaning no religion, shamanism, spiritualism.)

All the people (百姓) living together for today. (No dwelling on the past, no planning for the future.)

No countries. (No nationalism, no territorial divisions.)

Nothing to live or die for. (No conflicts, no dreams and no wants.)

No possessions. (Public or private.)

 

Lennon said that his Way (道 i.e.Tao) will lead to:

 

No need for greed and hunger.

All the people, sharing all the world, living life in peace.

 

Is John Lennon's dream practicable and consistent with the teaching of the Tao Te Ching?

[thelerner]

Let's discuss our way of life, according to our values and our attitudes, to find out how far off the mark we are in relation to the eternal Way (道 i.e.Tao).

 

John Lennon's Way (道) of Living, as told in his song "Imagine" would be as follows:

 

No Heaven, no Hell, and above us only sky. (Meaning no religion, shamanism, spiritualism.)

All the people (百姓) living together for today. (No dwelling on the past, no planning for the future.)

No countries. (No nationalism, no territorial divisions.)

Nothing to live or die for. (No conflicts, no dreams and no wants.)

No possessions. (Public or private.)

 

Lennon said that his Way (道 i.e.Tao) will lead to:

 

No need for greed and hunger.

All the people, sharing all the world, living life in peace.

 

Is John Lennon's dream practicable and consistent with the teaching of the Tao Te Ching?

I don't know if the song is even consistent with the life of Lennon.

 

John Lennon was a well known singer, composer, musician and founding member of the Beatles with a net worth of $150 million at death. So he actually had a fair number of possessions. I respect the man and his campaign for peace, but he wrote a lot of songs. I don't think each one was a manifesto. I imagine sometimes a song is just a song. Googoo gachoo.

 

I always have a problem with people preaching stuff they don't follow. Particularly fat cat preachers who live large while telling others what they need to give up.

Edited December 31, 2012 by thelerner

[sree]

I don't know if the song is even consistent with the life of Lennon.

 

You've got to be fair with the man. He was just imagining and asking if you would join him. If we all would follow the pied piper, that Way (道 i.e.Tao) could happen or we could all go over the cliff.

 

John Lennon was a well known singer, composer, musician and founding member of the Beatles with a net worth of $150 million at death. So he actually had a fair number of possessions. I respect the man and his campaign for peace, but he wrote a lot of songs. I don't think each one was a manifesto. I imagine sometimes a song is just a song. Googoo gachoo.

 

Ok, let's say it's John's manifesto on the Way (道 i.e.Tao), and let's give the man the benefit of the doubt that he would throw his $150 million into the communal pot if we all did the same and follow him, would it work? Come on, man, where is the faith?

[Marblehead]

Ah, "faith". Yeah, we gotta have faith. (Even we Atheists but we don't call it faith.)

 

Yes, "Imagie" is a possibility. (I will rarely deny a possibility.)

 

I do love that song. It expresses well the thought that it is possible for us all to live in peace and harmony. But we all would have to give up a lot in order for that condition to materialize. All we would have to do to get the ball rolling is to convince Bill Gates to be the first one to jump into the game. And then immediately followed by all the other billionaires and millionaires on the planet.

 

The goals are idealistic. But still a worthy goal. How probable? Well, as always, actions speak louder than words. And we must consider the nature of the human animal. Is its nature capable of attaining such a goal?

[zanshin]

“Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup,

They slither wildly as they slip away across the universe

Pools of sorrow, waves of joy are drifting through my open mind,

Possessing and caressing me.

Images of broken light which dance before me like a million eyes,

They call me on and on across the universe,

Thoughts meander like a restless wind inside a letter box

They tumble blindly as they make their way

Across the universe

Sounds of laughter shades of love are

Ringing through my open ears inciting and inviting me

Limitless undying love which shines around me like a

Million suns, and calls me on and on

Across the universe”

― John Lennon

 

 

Maybe not practicable, we already made it conditional on other people doing it.

 

Sometimes I wish I was better at being practical and living in reality instead of imagination, although it is nice here.

[Marblehead]

Sometimes I wish I was better at being practical and living in reality instead of imagination, although it is nice here.

I try to express that here. Yes, we can have the seclusion of our sanctuary, whatever it might be - there we can imagine. But when we go to the store we need to have some money in our pocket if we expect to buy anything.

[joeblast]

You've got to be fair with the man. He was just imagining and asking if you would join him. If we all would follow the pied piper, that Way (道 i.e.Tao) could happen or we could all go over the cliff.

 

Ok, let's say it's John's manifesto on the Way (道 i.e.Tao), and let's give the man the benefit of the doubt that he would throw his $150 million into the communal pot if we all did the same and follow him, would it work? Come on, man, where is the faith?

I'll just link to the doe-eyed collectivist comment I made in the other thread - an observation that came from Lennon himself after growing up a bit

 

So either we've severely abandoned human nature, or human nature is not in accordance with the tao...or a bit of both.

 

The benevolent ruler does not micromanage the state's affairs, much less the affairs of its citizens. But in order to get to collectivist Utopia, that very unnatural thing must be done.

 

Ergo, collectivist Utopia is up there with skittle-shitting unicorns

[GrandmasterP]

"John Lennon sang about peace. Well he's got it now".

(Bernard Manning)

 

Wouldn't a Taoist .lifestyle be whatever lifestyle a Taoist chose to lead?

Edited December 31, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Wouldn't a Taoist .lifestyle be whatever lifestyle a Taoist chose to lead?

Excellent question. In fact, one of the most important questions, I think. No, I don't know the answer and even if I did I wouldn't share it with anyone.

[sree]

"John Lennon sang about peace. Well he's got it now".

(Bernard Manning)

 

Wouldn't a Taoist .lifestyle be whatever lifestyle a Taoist chose to lead?

 

My God! This is so foreign-minded! A Taoist pedophile will not be read his Miranda rights but stomped to death right in the streets in the Land of Tao (中國).

[sree]

Maybe not practicable, we already made it conditional on other people doing it.

 

Sometimes I wish I was better at being practical and living in reality instead of imagination, although it is nice here.

)

 

Ok, Lennon's Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living is not practicable.

 

Does the Tao Te Ching offer a practicable way of living?

Edited January 1, 2013 by sree

[sree]

I'll just link to the doe-eyed collectivist comment I made in the other thread - an observation that came from Lennon himself after growing up a bit

 

So either we've severely abandoned human nature, or human nature is not in accordance with the tao...or a bit of both.

 

The benevolent ruler does not micromanage the state's affairs, much less the affairs of its citizens. But in order to get to collectivist Utopia, that very unnatural thing must be done.

 

Ergo, collectivist Utopia is up there with skittle-shitting unicorns

 

So, what is the bottom line? Lennon's theory is not practicable, neither to you nor to others who have commented thus far. Does the Tao Te Ching offer a Way of living that is practicable?

[sree]

Ah, "faith". Yeah, we gotta have faith. (Even we Atheists but we don't call it faith.)

 

Yes, "Imagie" is a possibility. (I will rarely deny a possibility.)

 

I do love that song. It expresses well the thought that it is possible for us all to live in peace and harmony. But we all would have to give up a lot in order for that condition to materialize. All we would have to do to get the ball rolling is to convince Bill Gates to be the first one to jump into the game. And then immediately followed by all the other billionaires and millionaires on the planet.

 

The goals are idealistic. But still a worthy goal. How probable? Well, as always, actions speak louder than words. And we must consider the nature of the human animal. Is its nature capable of attaining such a goal?

 

You (we) are that human animal. Do you think you are capable of attaining Lennon's goal?

 

Lennon was just writing a song, one said, and he never took what he sang seriously. As you said, we can't fault him for dreaming about a worthy goal. Do you think the Tao Te Ching is a serious piece of work? Or could it be nothing more than a compilation of daydreams written by a bunch of Chinese John Lennons 2,600 years ago?

[thelerner]

You (we) are that human animal. Do you think you are capable of attaining Lennon's goal?

 

Lennon was just writing a song, one said, and he never took what he sang seriously. As you said, we can't fault him for dreaming about a worthy goal. Do you think the Tao Te Ching is a serious piece of work? Or could it be nothing more than a compilation of daydreams written by a bunch of Chinese John Lennons 2,600 years ago?

Yes, I think Lennon's goal is realistic for an individual. When you start talking about society then no, it is not. It comes from a place that wants others to think what you think and act the way you'd want them to. And that my friend becomes an ideal begging to be corrupted. Force people into a particular version of heaven and you get hell, whether its a parent or a government. Avoid those who promise heaven and do not give up freedoms lightly.

 

Live and let live, don't hurt others, that's not so bad.

 

Tao Te Ching is a serious piece. That's why we're talking about it 2400 year later. I think many Beatles songs will outlive Lennon's 'Imagine'. I like the song, but 'All You Need is Love', might be a better anthem .

or maybe this one, because like the universe, a song doesn't have to make sense. We can close our eyes, smile and be swept along effortlessly.

 

Picture yourself in a boat on a river,

With tangerine trees and marmalade skies

Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly,

A girl with kaleidoscope eyes.

 

Cellophane flowers of yellow and green,

Towering over your head.

Look for the girl with the sun in her ,

And she's gone.

 

Lucy in the sky with diamonds

Lucy in the sky with diamonds

Lucy in the sky with diamonds

Ahh...

 

Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain

Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies,

Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers,

That grow so incredibly high.

Edited January 1, 2013 by thelerner

[Marblehead]

You (we) are that human animal. Do you think you are capable of attaining Lennon's goal?

 

Lennon was just writing a song, one said, and he never took what he sang seriously. As you said, we can't fault him for dreaming about a worthy goal. Do you think the Tao Te Ching is a serious piece of work? Or could it be nothing more than a compilation of daydreams written by a bunch of Chinese John Lennons 2,600 years ago?

Thanks for the offer of a serious and honest discussion with you.

 

The TTC is the pivot, the center, of my life philosophy. Do I follow the TTC as if it were a Bible? No. Do I accept all of it as being valid and the Truth? No. Do I respect and try to follow the teachings within? Yes.

 

The Three Treasures is an excellent starting point for anyone wishing to simplify their life and bring more peace and contentment into their life. I have mentioned before that for my purposes I have translated the third Treasure into the word/concept 'humility'. Sure, I am a little lacking here. Hehehe. But the way I live it hasn't caused me any internal conflict.

 

No, I think Lennon's world will never be a reality. But then, neither will my Individual Anarchy. There are just way too many people on this planet who simply will not do the right thing. Everything they do is centered upon themselves. To these people, they are the center of the universe, not Tao.

 

Bottom line: I think that the TTC is an excellent guide book by which I can live a very enjoyable and productive live. Yes, Productive life. I will say it again, productive life. To have meant something to someone beside just one's self.

 

To die but to be remembered. That's truely a long life.

[sree]

Yes, I think Lennon's goal is realistic for an individual. When you start talking about society then no, it is not. It comes from a place that wants others to think what you think and act the way you'd want them to. And that my friend becomes an ideal begging to be corrupted. Force people into a particular version of heaven and you get hell, whether its a parent or a government. Avoid those who promise heaven and do not give up freedoms lightly.

 

 

Ok, you more or less see Lennon’s goal the same way as Marblehead: it works only for the individual because there are too many people doing their own things. Granted, forcing others to do your thing is not your Way (道 i.e.Tao). Well, I don’t think that is the Way of the Tao Te Ching either.

 

What about a society of one, namely, you? Think about it. You said Lennon’s goal is realistic for an individual. Is this a half-assed belief or did you examine Lennon’s manifesto seriously and came up with the realization that it is not a silly ditty by a pot-head but practicable and actionable wisdom?

 

Tao Te Ching is a serious piece. That's why we're talking about it 2400 year later.

 

Just because everybody is into it all the time, does that make it serious? Everybody has been into sex since Adam chomped on that apple. Do you think a whole planet of people getting horny and getting laid, regardless of the consequential misery, serious? Every one of the main institutionalized religion has billions of devotees. Does that make spiritual doctrines serious? I am not saying that the Tao Te Ching or the Holy Trinity is not a serious piece of work. But I do question your argument that you and I, the straw dogs (刍狗) of Chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching, are not wackos but smart guys (聖人) who can tell the difference between Steve McQueen and Jughead.

[sree]

Thanks for the offer of a serious and honest discussion with you.

 

The honor is all mine. Let’s keep it honest. I will not be discussing the Tao Te Ching itself but on principles I have derived from it. The Classic is Chinese and, in my opinion, only incorruptible Chinese can access it. Principles, however, are universal and comprehensible to anyone who has a backbone and not overly stupid.

 

No, I think Lennon's world will never be a reality. But then, neither will my Individual Anarchy. There are just way too many people on this planet who simply will not do the right thing. Everything they do is centered upon themselves. To these people, they are the center of the universe, not Tao.

 

 

The realization of Lennon’s world is predicated upon everybody joining him. This approach comes from the mindset of an individualistic digit, who perceives himself a member of society, trying to rope in the rest of the people to do the right thing for the “common good”.

 

What is the right thing? Lennon said to give up possessions, religion, nationalism, ambition and live just for today. Will that do the trick?

 

Second question: You said there are too many people who will not do the right thing. What if there are just two: you and another who share your worldview. What would be the right thing to do to bring about the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living in your world of two?

[Marblehead]

What is the right thing? Lennon said to give up possessions, religion, nationalism, ambition and live just for today. Will that do the trick?

 

No. We all can't just lay around, smoke dope and have sex. Someone has to provide food, shelter, and security. Those who do that will want to be compensated. That's the right thing, isn't it?

 

Second question: You said there are too many people who will not do the right thing. What if there are just two: you and another who share your worldview. What would be the right thing to do to bring about the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living in your world of two?

 

There are three people in my personal society. We always do the right thing for and with each other. One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I an Atheist. We have beyond all that stuff. We are, so to speak, one. We all are elderly and have retirement income. We still do whatever work we are capable of and we do help each other whenever needed, without compensation, simply because we can. I don't know how much larger a social group could grow and this still be functional.

 

And yes, we live in accordance with the Tao (most of the time). It's not difficult. All that is needed is to be able to love another as much as one loves themself.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

This is a bad combination: "One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I an Atheist."

 

How about One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I a Taoist....????

[sree]

No. We all can't just lay around, smoke dope and have sex. Someone has to provide food, shelter, and security. Those who do that will want to be compensated. That's the right thing, isn't it?

 

 

If it were possible, we all would like to lay around instead of going to work to provide food, shelter and security. Ok, so some semblance of an economically and politically structured society is necessary. And we do have that in the world, the set up of which reflects our nature. And as long as we don’t set upon each other, mugging, cheating, raping or a full scale war, that’s the right thing, isn’t it?

 

There are three people in my personal society. We always do the right thing for and with each other. One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I an Atheist. We have beyond all that stuff. We are, so to speak, one. We all are elderly and have retirement income. We still do whatever work we are capable of and we do help each other whenever needed, without compensation, simply because we can. I don't know how much larger a social group could grow and this still be functional.

 

 

I am happy for you. Do you care if your group of three doesn’t ever grow any larger? I’ll bet the three of you are men. Men get along well together. The only problem I see is death. I don’t know which is worse: to be the first to go or suffer a hit to the team when one of the other two kicks the bucket. I hope you don’t mind me being brutally blunt. Being philosophers, we stare into the abyss to see the honest truth. This is real meditation. Not that cross-legged stuff of the Golden Flower.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 80 - A Peaceful Little Country

1. 小國寡民!

2. 有什伯之器 而不用,

3. 使民重死 而不遠徙。

4. 雖有舟輿 無所乘之,

5. 雖有甲兵 無所陳之。

6. 使民復結繩而用之。

7. 甘其食,

8. 美其服,

9. 安其居,

10.樂其俗。

11.鄰國相望,

12.雞犬之聲相聞,

13.民至老死,

14.不相往來。

 

Terse English

1. A small countries with few people!

2. Though there are many utensils but not in use.

3. Let the people feel rather die than migrate.

4. Though owning boats and wagons no need to ride them,

5. Though owning weapons no need to display them.

6. Let people return to era of using knots as reminder.

7. Give them food,

8. Offer them attire,

9. Provide them shelter,

10. Amuse them with entertainment.

11. Looking over the neighboring countries,

12. Hearing the sounds of chickens and dogs of each other,

13. People grew old until death,

14. Neither socialized with one another.

 

sree........

Did you have Chapter 80 in mind.....???

[sree]

This is a bad combination: "One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I an Atheist."

 

How about One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I a Taoist....????

 

Marblehead is American. The other two are Americans also. And that's the binding combination.

Anything else is just window-dressing.

 

A Chinese will not understand this.

[sree]

 

sree........

Did you have Chapter 80 in mind.....???

 

Thanks for bringing this up, Mr Chi. I will revert after studying this Chapter using that Cantonese-speaking website you showed me.

[Marblehead]

This is a bad combination: "One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I an Atheist."

 

How about One is a Christian, one a Buddhist, and I a Taoist....????

Hehehe. Have a hard time dealing with reality?

[Marblehead]

If it were possible, we all would like to lay around instead of going to work to provide food, shelter and security. Ok, so some semblance of an economically and politically structured society is necessary. And we do have that in the world, the set up of which reflects our nature. And as long as we don’t set upon each other, mugging, cheating, raping or a full scale war, that’s the right thing, isn’t it?

Yes, I would agree that that is the right thing. And as we are, in the most part, social animals, we will continue to establish societies and try to work together. We (the human race) are really not doing all that bad a job. Sure, it could be better but it could also be a whole lot worse.

 

 

I am happy for you. Do you care if your group of three doesn’t ever grow any larger? I’ll bet the three of you are men. Men get along well together. The only problem I see is death. I don’t know which is worse: to be the first to go or suffer a hit to the team when one of the other two kicks the bucket. I hope you don’t mind me being brutally blunt. Being philosophers, we stare into the abyss to see the honest truth. This is real meditation. Not that cross-legged stuff of the Golden Flower.

I have no problem with bluntness as long as it is honest.

 

Actually, the Buddhist is a woman. The Vietnamese lady friend I have spoken of before. In fact, she and I just went out for pizza this afternoon.

 

All three of us have spoken about death and we have no problem with knowing that we all will soon die as, as I said, we all are about the same age. My lady friend, when I first met here, had a hard time talking about death but she now handles talkingt about it very well now.

 

We would likely accept others into our group with open arms if they were as open-minded as we are. But no, we are not looking to enlarge our group.

 

I feel comfortable with saying that regardless of our religion/philosophy we are realists We know that life is just temporary. (But my lady friend get to reincarnate and my guy friend get to go to heaven. I get to fertilize the roses.