The Way (道 i.e.Tao) of Living

[ChiDragon]

Thank you. Anyone is welcome, you know. All I ask is you don't make a mess when you get there.

 

Well, that is the way how a Cantonese normally talks, eloquent but arrogant.......

Edited January 5, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Well, that is the way how a Cantonese normally talks, eloquent but arrogant.......

I can do without the arrogance. I've had enough of it in my life and it only breeds ill feelings.

[sree]

I can do without the arrogance. I've had enough of it in my life and it only breeds ill feelings.

 

Ok, man. I know you guys have had enough. Don't get upset. This conversation was getting a bit too heavy and I know you fellas like it light and easy. So, just forget it. Ok? No hard feelings.

[dawei]

So what is China doing right now. I think it is still in first place regarding biggest polluters of the planet with toxic waste. And remember, Wal-Mart owns China even though it is true that china hold most of the US's 16 trillion dollars debt and Wal-Mart is an US company.

Now that is a little unfair... as who is asking China to mass produce goods?

 

While I will give a nod to the fact that their lack of emission policy and amount spewed out is doing damage (I think Oregon's dreary, rainy season would be preferred to Beijing's smog)... but let's also not forget that it is a volume issue: They are so large a manufacturing base they must put out more emissions by logic. If you do per capita calculations, you often find that the US is the worst in many areas... but volume does speak louder.

 

And what is the point with Wal-Mart? Is that because "everything they sell comes from china"? If that is the case, then your actually in worse understanding then you realize... Go into any store at the mall and look at tags... Better yet, go to designer brands like Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein and you'll see this is not about any one store; it is the whole world wanting to find someone to make their stuff cheaper so they can make more money. Greed has us by the nads... and china (and other eastern countries) are simply filling the orders.

[sree]

Good stuff, Dawei. I was going to stop my discussion and delete my response to Marblehead because no one seemed to want to deal with the truth. Here is my contribution to the China story.

 

 

 

 

So what is China doing right now. I think it is still in first place regarding biggest polluters of the planet with toxic waste. And remember, Wal-Mart owns China even though it is true that china hold most of the US's 16 trillion dollars debt and Wal-Mart is an US company.

 

Your information is wrong. China holds only $1.1 trillion down from $1.4 trillion last year. Granted, China holds more US debt than all private American holdings but the amount is still less than 8% of total US public debt.

 

Wal-Mart doesn’t own China. It’s the other way round. 75% of the low-cost stuff Wal-Mart sells comes from China. To supply the world’s retailers like Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Carrefour, Tesco and IKEA with its low-priced products, China has to manufacture low-cost at the expense of the environment and her starving populace while guys like you complain about pollution and human rights as you slurp up the dirt cheap goods made in China. Even the goddam nails and screws at Ace Hardware come from China.

[Protector]

I just like how every discussion with Marblehead in it eventually comes to

"Stop being such a gosh darn atheist, Marblehead"

 

Also, these two stories remind me of this guy

 

Edited January 6, 2013 by Sinfest 2: Judgement Day

[Marblehead]

Now that is a little unfair...

Yes, I was being unfair and I do apologize for that. But I did what I needed to do at the time.

[Marblehead]

Your information is wrong.

That's okay. I wasn't trying to state facts. I was just trying to irritate you.

 

Peace!

[Marblehead]

So, anyhow, it would be nice if we could get back to the topic of the thread, that is, "the Way of living", as suggested by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

I will have nothing more to say regarding the similarities and differences between the East and the West in this thread.

[sree]

So, anyhow, it would be nice if we could get back to the topic of the thread, that is, "the Way of living", as suggested by Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Getting back to topic means different things to different people. In my opinion, we were always on topic. To some people, discussing the Tao Te Ching seems to be text-involved and academic in nature. To me, the Tao Te Ching is a commentary on practical life where the real test of wisdom is. This demands honesty because it calls one to task with regard to one's conduct as an individual and as a society. This topic of the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of Living is relevant for studying and discussing our values and beliefs, be it East or West, Occidental or Oriental, and tear them apart with brutal honesty. Some may think that human life as it is - in America or China or Nigeria or Iran - is the Way and to knock it would be insensitive and arrogant and must be stopped because people are going to get upset. So what? Should we bow to the mullahs, the Communist Party, the guardians of the tribe?

 

To my mind, the Tao Te Ching has more to offer than merely serving as an inspirational guide for the martial artist, spiritualist, alchemist and, last but not least, the atheist. Why won't you allow this Chinese Classic to be discussed by those for whom it was written?

Edited January 6, 2013 by sree

[Jeff]

 

To my mind, the Tao Te Ching has more to offer than merely serving as an inspirational guide for the martial artist, spiritualist, alchemist and, last but not least, the atheist. Why won't you allow this Chinese Classic to be discussed by those for whom it was written?

 

Is the not the wisdom written in the Tao Te Ching universal? Or, do you percieve it to only be of limited value for a few?

 

 

[sree]

Is the not the wisdom written in the Tao Te Ching universal? Or, do you percieve it to only be of limited value for a few?

 

 

Wisdom is not written in the Tao Te Ching. Books contain knowledge, none of them contain wisdom. You are a smart guy, Jeff. Surely, you know that. There is no practical knowledge to be gotten from the Tao Te Ching, not even by the Chinese intellectual.

Edited January 6, 2013 by sree

[dawei]

Yes, I was being unfair and I do apologize for that. But I did what I needed to do at the time.

Fair enough... me too

[ChiDragon]

Wisdom is not written in the Tao Te Ching. Books contain knowledge, none of them contain wisdom. You are a smart guy, Jeff. Surely, you know that. There is no practical knowledge to be gotten from the Tao Te Ching, not even by the Chinese intellectual.

 

I grant you by saying that. However, the knowledge in the book do reflect the wisdom of the author. You are making a blanket statement which is not true. Therefore, please speak only for yourself about the latter part of the quote in bold, my friend.......

Edited January 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[sree]

I grant you by saying that. However, the knowledge in the book do reflect the wisdom of the author. You are making a blanket statement which is not true. Therefore, please speak only for yourself about the latter part of the quote in bold, my friend.......

 

It is true, Mr Chi. You may not agree but that is a different matter. Two western scientists, if they disagree, they don't argue, they discuss the matter until the difference is resolved and the one correct conclusion is arrived at, together. And Chinese scholars should do that also - examine together the different point of views - and discover the one and only truth.

 

I maintain that there is no practical knowledge to be gotten from the Tao Te Ching. So, what practical knowledge does the Tao Te Ching holds? Alchemy? Tai Chi? Initiation as an Immortal? Meditation? What?

[Protector]

I maintain that there is no practical knowledge to be gotten from the Tao Te Ching. So, what practical knowledge does the Tao Te Ching holds? Alchemy? Tai Chi? Initiation as an Immortal? Meditation? What?

 

Let me pick a chapter at random

 

15

 

English/Feng

 

The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.

The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.

Because it is unfathomable,

All we can do is describe their appearance.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.

Alert, like men aware of danger.

Courteous, like visiting guests.

Yielding like ice about to melt.

Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.

Hollow, like caves.

Opaque, like muddy pools.

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?

Who can remain still until the moment of action?

Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment.

Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

Looks like I picked the perfect one. Can't go into one's mind and see exactly what one thinks but the actions of great people are for all to see. One can just be and everything would set into place in accordance to one's destiny. The actions set one's destiny into place and paint the person. A lot can be taken from this chapter alone and it is practical

[ChiDragon]

It is true, Mr Chi. You may not agree but that is a different matter. Two western scientists, if they disagree, they don't argue, they discuss the matter until the difference is resolved and the one correct conclusion is arrived at, together. And Chinese scholars should do that also - examine together the different point of views - and discover the one and only truth.

 

I maintain that there is no practical knowledge to be gotten from the Tao Te Ching. So, what practical knowledge does the Tao Te Ching holds? Alchemy? Tai Chi? Initiation as an Immortal? Meditation? What?

 

None of the above. The reason you don't know is because you have not studied the Tao Te Ching thoroughly and start making generalizations from the fallacies made by other people. The question "What?" is up to you to answer after you have studied the TTC thoroughly and realize what it is all about. How can you criticize something that you have no knowledge of....???

 

 

PS....

When you first come on board, you'd gave me the impression that you wanted to study the TTC deeply from scratch. By your present behavior, it seems that you have disappointed me greatly....

Edited January 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[sree]

None of the above. The reason you don't know is because you have not studied the Tao Te Ching thoroughly and start making generalizations from the fallacies made by other people. The question "What?" is up to you to answer after you have studied the TTC thoroughly and realize what it is all about. How can you criticize something that you have no knowledge of....???

 

You are making a big assumption - that I have not studied the Tao Te Ching thoroughly. I guess it depends on what you mean by "thoroughly". Everyone has his own opinion of what it means and reckons he is the expert on the Tao Te Ching. Western scientists never question each other's competence when they cooperate on a research project. Incompetence is self-evident and it doesn't take long for the fake scientist to be exposed when he shows inability at grasping the subject matter let alone participate in the inquiry.

 

So, why don't we Chinese scholars do what western scientists do - conduct ourselves professionally and not question each others' technical competence at the outset? Let's proceed with our discussion and allow incompetence, if any, to reveal the quack.

 

If it is not alchemy, spiritualism, iron-crotch, martial art and Chi Kung, then what practical knowledge was specifically written into the Tao Te Ching?

Edited January 6, 2013 by sree

[ChiDragon]

You are making a big assumption - that I have not studied the Tao Te Ching thoroughly.

 

If it is not alchemy, spiritualism, iron-crotch, martial art and Chi Kung, then what practical knowledge was specifically written into the Tao Te Ching?

 

Don't you think that you are contradicting yourself right now....???

What have you learnt from the Tao Te Ching.....???

Now, it is your burden to prove to me what do you know about the Tao Te Ching.....???

 

 

PS....

I just realized that all of the above are your fallacies too..........

 

PPS....

For that being said, anyway, the Tao Te Ching is about 無為(Wu Wei).

Edited January 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Protector]

If it is not alchemy, spiritualism, iron-crotch, martial art and Chi Kung, then what practical knowledge was specifically written into the Tao Te Ching?

 

So instead of a quote you want a name of it or something? How about Taoism

[ChiDragon]

1. So, why don't we Chinese scholars do what western scientists do -

2. conduct ourselves professionally and not question each others' technical competence at the outset?

3. Let's proceed with our discussion and allow incompetence, if any, to reveal the quack.

1. Sorry, that contradicts the impartial concept in Chapter 5 of the TTC for not being Wu Wei(無為).

2. Sorry, that was not the western scientific method is all about.

3. That sounds very impartial on your part but with preconceived ideas.

 

 

PS....

If you would like to take the non-scholastic approach about the Tao Te Ching, then we can have all kind of BS with endless arguments about it. However, I must decline to participate in such a meaningless approach.

Edited January 6, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

 

Wisdom is not written in the Tao Te Ching. Books contain knowledge, none of them contain wisdom. You are a smart guy, Jeff. Surely, you know that. There is no practical knowledge to be gotten from the Tao Te Ching, not even by the Chinese intellectual.

 

Maybe the difference is in our definition of wisdom. How about the word "insight"?

 

So, for you, there is nothing practical, useful, or insightful to be "gotten from the Tao Te Ching, not even by the Chineses intellectual". Since this is your position, why bother to even discuss the Tao Te Ching?

 

[Marblehead]

Why won't you allow this Chinese Classic to be discussed by those for whom it was written?

You mean humanity? I thought I was a member of that group. In this case we all can discuss it.

 

Or were you referring to the 6th century BC Chinaman? In this case none of us can discuss it.

[sree]

So instead of a quote you want a name of it or something? How about Taoism

 

Taoism is a cult comprising disparate superstitions that appeal to the those who yearn to be misled. It's pop-culture, like Pepsi or Fanta, marketed on the platform of the Tao Te Ching which is a powerful brand that has nothing to do with the Chinese Classic.

[Protector]

Taoism is a cult comprising disparate superstitions that appeal to the those who yearn to be misled. It's pop-culture, like Pepsi or Fanta, marketed on the platform of the Tao Te Ching which is a powerful brand that has nothing to do with the Chinese Classic.

 

Well, the truth comes out, I wonder if anyone is going to listen to you anymore