The Way (道 i.e.Tao) of Living

[Marblehead]

Hey, this chap is not like me!! He comes from Wudang and is not a shaman. I come form Mao shan and I learn my arts from the Immortals.

 

The three treasures are;

 

Mercy

Economy

Being at one with the Dao

Hehehe. I had no idea if that was you or not. I guessed. Okay, I was wrong. Big deal. Hehehe.

 

Yes, your Three Treasures are valid also.

[takaaki]

I offer the Three Treasures as translated by Robert Henricks in his translation of the Tao Te Ching:

 

5. I constantly have three treasures;

6. Hold on to them and treasure them.

7. The first is compassion;

8. The second is frugality;

9. And the third is not presuming to be at the forefront in the world.

 

For my own purposes I have simplified these to:

 

Compassion

Conservativism

Humility

 

The Three Treasures are mentioned in the Dao De Jing? Which Chapter of the Dao De Jing are you referring to?

[Marblehead]

The Three Treasures are mentioned in the Dao De Jing? Which Chapter of the Dao De Jing are you referring to?

Chapter 67.

 

Are you aware of this site? http://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/t.html

[takaaki]

Hey, this chap is not like me!! He comes from Wudang and is not a shaman. I come form Mao shan and I learn my arts from the Immortals.

 

The three treasures are;

 

Mercy

Economy

Being at one with the Dao

 

I meant you no offense. I am not familiar with what is what in Taoism.

 

What is the difference between a Wudang priest and a Mao Shan shaman? I did not realize that there are Chinese Taoist priests preaching to English-speaking people in the west. I thought you are the only western Taoist shaman with Li Erh's guidance reaching out to the western world.

[takaaki]

Chapter 67.

 

Are you aware of this site? http://terebess.hu/english/lexikon/t.html

 

No. I will check it out. Thanks for the information. You are very helpful.

[Jeff]

 

Hi Jeff, what is your view about the Dao De Jing?

 

Hi takaaki,

 

Sorry to have missed your earlier question...

 

When I read the words of the Dao De Jing, the meaning flows at three different "levels". The three levels are daily living, command or leadership, and the mystical understanding of "existence". On these three levels, the "insights" have been useful in being a husband & father, running a company and better understanding of my "energy" practices.

 

In my experience, most true texts have both "inner" and "outer" meanings. True "wisdom" provides for all based on where the reader is on their own path.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

p.s. As we have in other threads, I am happy to discuss the various meanings of the text.

[ChiDragon]

What is the difference between a Wudang priest and a Mao Shan shaman?

Wudang(武當) was considered to be 正派(legitimate cult).

 

Mao Shan(茅山) shaman was considered to be 邪教(illegitimate cult) as the CCP classified Falun Gong as an illegitimate cult.

[flowing hands]

I meant you no offense. I am not familiar with what is what in Taoism.

 

What is the difference between a Wudang priest and a Mao Shan shaman? I did not realize that there are Chinese Taoist priests preaching to English-speaking people in the west. I thought you are the only western Taoist shaman with Li Erh's guidance reaching out to the western world.

Chang Tao Ling is said to be resposible for the formation of religous Daoism. Mao Shun and other mountain retreats established their own branch of Daoism. The only link that I have with Mao Shun is the fact that they revered Li Erh and they were famous for their excorcism and magical arts. So in very loose terms the sect that I can be associated with is Mao Shun, but the Three Immortals that I follow formed their own sect which is another story. Religious Daoism took many of the old arts of shamanism and incorporated into religious Daoism. Sadly the great perversion of Daoism begun. I practice a slightly modified version of the old shamanism that was in existence in Li Erh's time. The difference is that they did not draw the fa fu like i do now to convey the energy. I still can perform healing rites for groups of people, dance etc. like the ancient shaman did all those years ago. Tell fortunes and summon up Immortals and do excorcism.

 

Mao Shun is considered Illegal by the PRC because it represents a threat to its position by the posession of magical power and influence over people. It has nothing to do with hetrodoxy.

[ChiDragon]

Correction:
Mao Shan was considered to be illegitimate(not illegal) by all, centuries ago, even before the PRC.

Edited January 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[flowing hands]

Correction:

Mao Shan was considered to be illegitimate(not illegal) by all, centuries ago, even before the PRC.

correction; don't listen to slang Chinese that people put about in the streets, just because one person says Mao Shun is hetrodox, doesn't make the whole sect the same. It is the same as saying that a Christian murderer makes all Christians the same.

Alot of the Chinese slag off Mao shun practitioners because its fashionable and they themselves are not any good. 'Its always the Mao shun who causes the water to turn bad because they summoned up a demon to poison us'. Of course the people did not look at the fact that their hygene was rotten and disease had been caused by this and not by the Mao Shun scorcerer.

[takaaki]

Hi takaaki,

 

Sorry to have missed your earlier question...

Edited January 19, 2013 by takaaki

[takaaki]

When I read the words of the Dao De Jing, the meaning flows at three different "levels". The three levels are daily living, command or leadership, and the mystical understanding of "existence". On these three levels, the "insights" have been useful in being a husband & father, running a company and better understanding of my "energy" practices.

 

In my experience, most true texts have both "inner" and "outer" meanings. True "wisdom" provides for all based on where the reader is on their own path.

 

So where are you on your path?

 

Let's use the words in Chapter 67. Please elaborate a little, with regard to application in your own life, on the the three levels:

 

1. Daily living.

2. Command or Leadership, and

3. Mystical understand of existence.

[Jeff]

 

So where are you on your path?

 

Let's use the words in Chapter 67. Please elaborate a little, with regard to application in your own life, on the the three levels:

 

1. Daily living.

2. Command or Leadership, and

3. Mystical understand of existence.

How does one describe a location on the path? I have reached the point where I try to feel the flow and go with it. Did you have any specific questions?

 

On Chapter 67, happy to discuss. Which translation/version shall we use? I do like the one from Shaman Flowing Hand.

 

Best, Jeff

[takaaki]

correction; don't listen to slang Chinese that people put about in the streets, just because one person says Mao Shun is hetrodox, doesn't make the whole sect the same. It is the same as saying that a Christian murderer makes all Christians the same.

Alot of the Chinese slag off Mao shun practitioners because its fashionable and they themselves are not any good. 'Its always the Mao shun who causes the water to turn bad because they summoned up a demon to poison us'. Of course the people did not look at the fact that their hygene was rotten and disease had been caused by this and not by the Mao Shun scorcerer.

 

You must have good reason to gravitate to the Mao Shan sect.

 

Do you believe that there are more than one way to skin the cat and that it is up to each individual to choose his own way to live the Dao De Jing?

 

Or, there is only one Way and the other sects along with the rest of the philosophical derivatives in the west are heresies?

[takaaki]

How does one describe a location on the path? I have reached the point where I try to feel the flow and go with it. Did you have any specific questions?

 

Yes, I do. To be able to draw wisdom from the Dao De JIng is a significant benefit; otherwise, self-cultivation bears no fruit.

 

How has the Dao De Jing empowered you in dealing with conflicts in the running of your company and the managing of relationships at home? How would that be different from advice of self-help gurus?

 

 

On Chapter 67, happy to discuss. Which translation/version shall we use? I do like the one from Shaman Flowing Hand.

 

Best, Jeff

 

Let's use the one you like from Flowing Hands.

[takaaki]

Wudang(武當) was considered to be 正派(legitimate cult).

 

Mao Shan(茅山) shaman was considered to be 邪教(illegitimate cult) as the CCP classified Falun Gong as an illegitimate cult.

 

My checks on the internet generally yielded a negative image of Mao Shan practices. Flowing Hands may be following a different Mao Shan form unconnected with the "bad guys"

 

Why was Mao Shan considered illegitimate? I don't mean in the eyes of the Chinese Government which has its political reasons.

 

In what way is it fundamentally deviant in the eyes of a scholar of the Dao DeJing? Do you know of any accredited scholarly opinion against the Mao Shan Religion which, I understand, is based on Chang Tao Ling's commentary called Xiang'er?

[takaaki]

I offer the Three Treasures as translated by Robert Henricks in his translation of the Tao Te Ching:

 

5. I constantly have three treasures;

6. Hold on to them and treasure them.

7. The first is compassion;

8. The second is frugality;

9. And the third is not presuming to be at the forefront in the world.

 

For my own purposes I have simplified these to:

 

Compassion

Conservativism

Humility

 

The point I wanted to make above is that if we live our life with the Three Treasures as the center-piece of our interaction with our inner essence and with all living things we will be living a life of love, peace and sharing.

 

If we hold to these Treasures our actions and reactions with all living creatures will be uncontentionious. We will not be creating enemies and we will be able to live in peace.

 

Is it important to you that those three treasures you identified above are precisely what the Chinese text says? Even the Chinese themselves are not in agreement on what the Chinese text says.

[Marblehead]

Is it important to you that those three treasures you identified above are precisely what the Chinese text says? Even the Chinese themselves are not in agreement on what the Chinese text says.

Now you are getting personal. Hehehe.

 

No, it's really not important what the original (whatever that is) text says. What matters to me more than anything else is how does what I have just read apply to my life. There is much in the TTC that doesn't effect my life as I have no desire of ruling the world. But I do want to find the best ways to life my life with the greatest amount of freedom possible and without causing contention with others.

 

One thing that really irritated me back when I was a kid in history class was the importance of dates and names of people and places. To me, the important thing is what is the lesson of these past events that we should pay attention to and consider avoiding those things that caused problems and reach out to those things that brought about peace between peoples.

 

So while it is true that I enjoy discussion the technicalities of the chapters with Dragon, Dawei, and others, the most important thing to me is, "Is there a lesson for me in those words and how might I apply that lesson in my own life.

[ChiDragon]

My checks on the internet generally yielded a negative image of Mao Shan practices. Flowing Hands may be following a different Mao Shan form unconnected with the "bad guys"

 

Why was Mao Shan considered illegitimate? I don't mean in the eyes of the Chinese Government which has its political reasons.

 

In what way is it fundamentally deviant in the eyes of a scholar of the Dao DeJing? Do you know of any accredited scholarly opinion against the Mao Shan Religion which, I understand, is based on Chang Tao Ling's commentary called Xiang'er?

 

takaaki....

 

I must praise you that you are a gentleman and a scholar. I love your line of questioning; you are impartial, precise, and straight to the point. Love to have you aboard...

 

Since my opposing view has been contaminated this thread and being not very respectful to the key person of this thread, may I suggest to have you to start a new thread to continue with our discussion about the legitimacy of Mao Shan Taoist Cult. Thank you....!!!

 

 

 

[takaaki]

 

takaaki....

 

I must praise you that you are a gentleman and a scholar. I love your line of questioning; you are impartial, precise, and straight to the point. Love to have you aboard...

 

Since my opposing view has been contaminated this thread and being not very respectful to the key person of this thread, may I suggest to have you to start a new thread to continue with our discussion about the legitimacy of Mao Shan Taoist Cult. Thank you....!!!

 

 

 

 

Thank you for your kind comment. This thread is about the Way of living in accordance with the Dao. I thought this would be a good place to separate the wheat from the chaff, to polish our mirror and remove all blemish including the illegitimate and the false.

 

The key person of this thread is you because you started it, haven't you? Your view can only contaminate this thread if it is driven by personal agenda and not by objective facts in the search for truth. Even if you were to proceed with honesty, there would be opposition. Should you defer to opposition or be bold?

 

One of your three treasures talks about a mercy that enables one to be bold in war against opposition. The only direct opposition will come from Flowing Hands. Do be merciful towards him in your attack and you will be strong in the defense of your case as you proceed to win the argument against the legitimacy of the Mao Shan sect.

 

Let's put your first treasure to the test.

Edited January 20, 2013 by takaaki

[takaaki]

Now you are getting personal. Hehehe.

 

 

I don't mean to get "personal" personal but we are discussing an introspective topic. It would be difficult to avoid being up close and personal unless we treat the subject as culinary art and view the Dao De Jing as a cook book. Still, I need to respect boundaries. I will take care not to fly too close to your territorial limits.

 

No, it's really not important what the original (whatever that is) text says. What matters to me more than anything else is how does what I have just read apply to my life. There is much in the TTC that doesn't effect my life as I have no desire of ruling the world. But I do want to find the best ways to life my life with the greatest amount of freedom possible and without causing contention with others.

 

 

The Chinese, figuratively-speaking, sees no division between the individual and the universe. Thus, principles for ruling the world are the same as those for ruling the self. Harmony, the Chinese believe, is wholistic in nature when the individual is one with the universe. The only other way for the individual to get what you are after, regardless of the universe, is great fortune. And I don't mean getting a good omen from the I Ching. I mean money, tons of it. There is no greater freedom than private jets and living across multiple geographies. No one would get in your way, that's for sure. The only people who will ever get close to you are the ones falling over themselves to make sure no one gets in your way to wherever you want to be.

 

So, there you have it. There is the Dao way and there is the American way.

 

One thing that really irritated me back when I was a kid in history class was the importance of dates and names of people and places. To me, the important thing is what is the lesson of these past events that we should pay attention to and consider avoiding those things that caused problems and reach out to those things that brought about peace between peoples.

 

 

 

I understand your impatience with history class. I feel the same way with every subject when it gets too academic for its own sake. There must be a reason for the rigor, though.

 

So while it is true that I enjoy discussion the technicalities of the chapters with Dragon, Dawei, and others, the most important thing to me is, "Is there a lesson for me in those words and how might I apply that lesson in my own life.

 

This is just the opposite to the classical Chinese approach to learning. It's never about you. It's always about the lesson.

[Marblehead]

I don't mean to get "personal" personal but we are discussing an introspective topic. It would be difficult to avoid being up close and personal unless we treat the subject as culinary art and view the Dao De Jing as a cook book. Still, I need to respect boundaries. I will take care not to fly too close to your territorial limits.

I was only joking here. I have never refused to answer any question ask of me on this forum. There are not many things in my life I would refuse to talk about here.

 

The Chinese, figuratively-speaking, sees no division between the individual and the universe. Thus, principles for ruling the world are the same as those for ruling the self. Harmony, the Chinese believe, is wholistic in nature when the individual is one with the universe. The only other way for the individual to get what you are after, regardless of the universe, is great fortune. And I don't mean getting a good omen from the I Ching. I mean money, tons of it. There is no greater freedom than private jets and living across multiple geographies. No one would get in your way, that's for sure. The only people who will ever get close to you are the ones falling over themselves to make sure no one gets in your way to wherever you want to be.

 

So, there you have it. There is the Dao way and there is the American way.

Good point and I recognize that as a fact. Feel sure, there is harmony in my life and much of it was gained by reading the TTC and The Chuang Tzu. I am a nature lover and have fish ponds and gardens - always working with nature as much as I can. But then, I have my American ways too. I demand respect. And I will always offer it first.

 

I understand your impatience with history class. I feel the same way with every subject when it gets too academic for its own sake. There must be a reason for the rigor, though.

I won't speak to this as I have little good to say concerning my American educational system. And I don't know enough about the systems of other countries to make comment.

 

This is just the opposite to the classical Chinese approach to learning. It's never about you. It's always about the lesson.

Hehehe. It is always about me. (That's the Nietzsche side of me talking.) There are many lessons that don't apply to my life therefore they are of no value to me. (Yes, the lessons may be of value to others.) (When I was in the Army I didn't need to know how to keep a boat afloat - I needed to know how to do "my" job.)

 

My personal philosophy is a mixture of different cultures. I cannot fairly be called anything (no appropriate single-word label for me.)

[takaaki]

Good point and I recognize that as a fact. Feel sure, there is harmony in my life and much of it was gained by reading the TTC and The Chuang Tzu. I am a nature lover and have fish ponds and gardens - always working with nature as much as I can. But then, I have my American ways too. I demand respect. And I will always offer it first.

 

I would consider you the founder of American Taoism. I like that more than the Wudang sect. It all begins and ends with me. This even sounds right. Instead of trying to figure out Chapter 67, I don't see why I can't define my own three treasures. To each his own. I would be damned if I were to cede my right to self-determination to some Chinese guy who plucked three treasures right out of his ass in ancient China.

 

Let's see what you've got. Compassion, Conservatism and Humility. You sure that's what you want? Would you explain how these treasures work for you? I am sure you must have given a lot of thought to picking them for yourself. I don't want to waste effort re-inventing the wheel. If your analysis works for me, then I will adopt your treasures as my own;otherwise, I will dig around for what works for me. That's your attitude too, right?

 

Hey, I feel like an American Taoist already.

Edited January 20, 2013 by takaaki

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Thanks for the compliments. I'm not "that" good though. (Humility)

 

Well, no, my Three Treasures isn't all there is but they are key and I do try to keep them a part of my daily life.

 

Compassion. There's a new thread about that. To give to others in whatever means when we can give; when we have an excess of whatever. In my case it is mostly money to organizations that support those (people and other animals) in need. To give because we can, not because someone has told us that we should. To give without expectation of any form of return. But compassion is not limited to just giving to others, but also showing others that you care about them. A simple smile is all that is needed sometimes.

 

Conservativism. This has always been a part of "my" life. At different time in my life when living with others I was unable to practice this because "they" were not as conservative as I am. The thing about being conservative and not wasteful is that we are able to acquire the things we want easier because we save up for those things. I am conservative and therefore I have an excess which I share with others. Being less wasteful includes conserving the planet's natural resources. I catch rain water for gardening and for my fish ponds. I use solar electric for the pond pumps and for my electric car. (Yes, I have a gasoline powered truck but I use my electric car whenever I can in order to save myself money and reduce my consumption of fossil fuel.)

 

Humility. Example above. But yes, to not allow my ego to be stronger than I physically and mentally am. I'm not shy about bragging about good things I have done. I'm not shy about bragging about things I am capable of doing. But I don't claim to be able to do things I cannot do. I try very hard to walk my talk. Sure, sometimes I stumble and I have fallen a few time. No big deal. I'm not trying to be perfect. And something I still need to do better at is complimenting others on the good things they do. This is part of humility.

 

Another key concept in my life is "optimism". In my bedroom on the closet door I have posted a copy of the Optimists International Creed. I posted a copy of it here a long time ago. I can post a link to it if requested. Optimism does not apply to only myself but also to my interactions with others. Trying to point out the good in others in order to increase their optimism. And along with this is the concept that I should do the best I can at whatever I undertake doing. (One of the reasons I post so much on this forum. Hehehe.) I will not accept substandard efforts from myself - its all or nothing. The only challenge is deciding how goo someting has to be done before it is done well (time, money, difficulty, etc).

 

Anyhow, I enjoy company while I am walking my path. Anyone is welcome to walk with me. But, from a thought from Albert Camus, don't expect me to lead as I might not be going where another wants to go and don't expect me to follow as another may not be going where I wish to go. But we can walk together and just be friends.

[ChiDragon]

The key person of this thread is you because you started it, haven't you? Your view can only contaminate this thread if it is driven by personal agenda and not by objective facts in the search for truth. Even if you were to proceed with honesty, there would be opposition. Should you defer to opposition or be bold?

 

One of your three treasures talks about a mercy that enables one to be bold in war against opposition. The only direct opposition will come from Flowing Hands. Do be merciful towards him in your attack and you will be strong in the defense of your case as you proceed to win the argument against the legitimacy of the Mao Shan sect.

 

Let's put your first treasure to the test.

 

The key person of this thread is sree, another member, requested for me to start this thread for him. He was not able to do it himself at the time.

 

If I have to put my first treasure to the test, then, it will require a brand new thread due to the profound sensitivity of the subject. I will do my best, per your request, in a new thread about the history of the legitimacy of a cult.....

Edited January 20, 2013 by ChiDragon