The Way (道 i.e.Tao) of Living

[takaaki]

 

We sure do have a big difference in thinking. I thought it might be something like that. I don't it is just you or it is between the thinking of the east and the west.

 

What is the difference? Marblehead is an American Taoist who accepts material reality without necessarily being materialistic; he is not someone who monetizes everything and sees value only in dollar terms.

 

I think the American Taoist is the better form. He watches the Chinese Taoist light the joss-sticks, do the taichi, and doesn't say a damn thing. And he is kind to the western Taoist who isn't a materialist and somewhat off his rocker like his eastern counterpart..

Edited January 26, 2013 by takaaki

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

Well, philosophically, a true Taoist is not materialistic. A materialist is not a Taoist.

 

 

 

@HAJA...Please explain....

 

 

In tao, one dimension, all things exist mutually. there is no "this is this and that is that because they cnt be both" when they are already inherently co-occupying the tao.

 

 

Duality shouldnt be a concern. and if you find you are living in a state of contradiction... well, that's just the way.

 

One can be both materialistic and generous. that is somewhat taoist isnt it?

One can also be both bare-basics and selfish.

 

 

I do not beleive one can truly follow the tao and turn around and assume authority over who is or is not following the tao based on- oh fuck hell shit- based on ANYTHING AT ALL.

[Marblehead]

 

We sure do have a big difference in thinking. I thought it might be something like that. I don't know it is just you or it is between the thinking of the east and the west.

Hehehe. Now don't start asking me why I think the way I do. Far too many variables.

[Marblehead]

 

based on- oh fuck hell shit- based on ANYTHING AT ALL.

Got lost for words there for a minute? Hehehe.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

frustrated. cuz I know no words would do any justice to the point, and the point remains unchanged.... and ungrasped.

[ChiDragon]

 

I do not beleive one can truly follow the tao and turn around and assume authority over who is or is not following the tao based on- oh fuck hell shit- based on ANYTHING AT ALL.

 

Chapter 41

上士聞道勤而行之。

中士聞道若存若亡。

下士聞道大笑之。

 

Those who are knowledgeable about principles of Tao; they cultivate these principles diligently.

Those who are somewhat knowledgeable about the principles of Tao; they wonder the the validity of these principles.

Those who have no knowledge about the principles of Tao; they gave it a big belly laugh.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

Chapter 41

上士聞道勤而行之。

中士聞道若存若亡。

下士聞道大笑之。

 

Those who are knowledgeable about principles of Tao; they cultivate these principles diligently.

Those who are somewhat knowledgeable about the principles of Tao; they wonder the the validity of these principles.

Those who have no knowledge about the principles of Tao; they gave it a big belly laugh.

 

Y'nkow that part of my diligence is a big belly laugh where applicable? Sometimes it's the things people try to "say about the tao"... you know since it is formless and all that rap etc. ? Yeah, im belly laughing at the notion that a Taoist can be defined by another fragment of the tao itself

 

[October]

Let's discuss our way of life, according to our values and our attitudes, to find out how far off the mark we are in relation to the eternal Way (道 i.e.Tao).

 

Is John Lennon's dream practicable and consistent with the teaching of the Tao Te Ching?

 

Hi,

 

My life includes various Asian views. Here, I would reply with the view in Zen: Statements are just words, it should be experienced to understand it. I think that means we should not think so much about life, but rather spend more time with (conscious) life.

 

John's imagination is John's imagination. That's it, no more or less. We do not know his (maybe religios/spiritual)background, not his experience in life, not his upbringing. I think all of this has an impact on our thinking.

 

And why think about extraneous ideas? I think Tao teaches us otherwise. At least that is my experience so far.

 

Personally, I have more, by words of Lao Tzu, Confucius, Dalai Lama or other very wise persons. But that have to decide everybody for themselves, whose words he follows. And John Lennon is not someone, I regard as wise enough, that I want to learn through his words and views. My personal view.

 

Best wishes

October.

Edited January 27, 2013 by October

[takaaki]

Personally, I have more, by words of Lao Tzu, Confucius, Dalai Lama or other very wise persons. But that have to decide everybody for themselves, whose words he follows. And John Lennon is not someone, I regard as wise enough, that I want to learn through his words and views. My personal view.

 

You will not look at what John had to say because you don’t regard him as a wise person? What is the difference between the Dalai Lama and John Lennon? They are two people in the human race like two leaves in a tree. What makes one leaf stand out better than the other? Is it the way it flutters in the breeze while the other, like the rest of the foliage, is perfectly still? Or does one turn beautifully green when the sunlight passes through it and the other, like the rest, doesn’t?

 

Please reply with the view in Zen.

[takaaki]

WoW! You ask a lot of questions. Hehehe.

 

Do you mind? I don't mean to pry but I do have a deep interest in people. I like to know what makes them tick the way they do.

 

She is somewhat correct but just a note, she is retired and has a good retirement income. She doesn't have to worry like many younger people do.

 

Good to know that she is doing ok. Most people are not doing ok.

 

I am a materialist, so yes, I was born when I started breathing air on my own.

 

Your mother would say that you were born way before you started breathing air on your own. She would pinpoint it to the first time she could feel you moving inside her. And that would still be a materialist point of view, I think. Sounds like you are a pro-choice materialist.

 

The purpose of life? No, I have no answers. My personal answer is there is no purpose for human life. But it evolved none-the-less. We were born so our purpose is to live - just as any other life form on this planet.

 

Have you any idea how crazy this sounds? (I don't mean to be disrespectful.) This is exactly what my father said when I asked him the same question. I was 17 at the time. The fact that it doesn't sound crazy anymore is because nobody cares that nobody knows. I said to my father: "Do you mean to tell me that you brought me into a world about which you have no clue? Superman's father had a clue. Krypton was blowing up."

 

In case you are wondering if we are off-topic, the answer is no. We are talking about the Way (Tao) of Living and we have just discovered we are probably a zillion light-years way off track.

 

Well, sure, I think it is an acceptable goal for us to maximize our pleasures and minimize our pains. But not at the expense of others.

 

Do you think there is anyone alive who would knowngly and deliberately maximize his pleasures and minimize his pains at the expense of others? Maybe, animals don't count because we need protein and as long as we need protein we might as well have that rib-eye, and buffalo wings. We know we are not eating people, not with our teeth anyway. Feeling uncomfortable yet?

 

And sure, I have my scars but in the most part I don't let them effect the rest of my life. (I used to be bothered by them though before becoming a Taoist.) (I just had to add that. Hehehe.)

 

American Taoist, you mean. And you are my template for building a new brand for the Way.

 

"Thou art Marblehead, and upon this rock I shall build my church."

Edited January 27, 2013 by takaaki

[October]

 

You will not look at what John had to say because you don’t regard him as a wise person?

 

Hi, mh no I would say exactly the opposite! :-) (Sorry, I can not english very well. Perhaps therefore the misunderstanding) Based on what I see / hear / experience of him, he is (for me) not someone, who takes me further on my personal path.

 

 

What is the difference between the Dalai Lama and John Lennon?

 

 

Every people are different. The important difference for me is, whether a person of its kind, is helpful for me on my way. I cannot say anything more, because every person is as they is. About generally better or worse, I do not judge. That taught me the Asian philosophy! ;-)

 

 

Please reply with the view in Zen.

 

 

I could ask you, how do I do that. But I know the answer of Zen. Experience to understand! I can not "reply" from the perspective of Zen, because these were just "only" words again. Wise life does not need many words.

 

Yes, wisdom needs questions. A lot of questions! But no answers, because these are the experiences of others. Wisdom needs its own experience, own elaboration.

 

Do not ask me what is a wise life. Strive it yourself, and ask yourself all these questions. Then you will find answers.

 

The curious thing is everything I say explain or answer, are just words and nothing more, too! ;-)

 

Excuse me for this answer ...

 

Best wishes,

October.

[Marblehead]

Hi October,

Every people are different. The important difference for me is, whether a person of its kind, is helpful for me on my way.

I am totally with you here.

 

I have, many times, mentioned that we each are special and unique. I still hold to this understanding.

 

In my efforts to reduce the dualities in my life I have accepted (not my original thought) the concept of "useful/useless (to me)". Although something might be very valuable for another person this in itself does not mean that it will have any value to me. My big question is almost always: Will this help me hold to my peace and contentment? If yes, it has value (to me). If no, it has no value (to me). The answers may or may not apply equally to others.

[takaaki]

Excuse me for this answer ...

 

Mein Freund, October Mädchen. entspannen. Ich bin mit dir spielen.

[Marblehead]

Mein Freund, October Mädchen. entspannen. Ich bin mit dir spielen.

You done good Takaaki!

[October]

In my efforts to reduce the dualities in my life I have accepted (not my original thought) the concept of "useful/useless (to me)". Although something might be very valuable for another person this in itself does not mean that it will have any value to me. My big question is almost always: Will this help me hold to my peace and contentment? If yes, it has value (to me). If no, it has no value (to me). The answers may or may not apply equally to others.

 

Hi :-)

 

Yes, I think this is a reasonable point of view! Something that does not help me, can be for someone else just right. That is true. But to understand this, has taken his time for me...

 

I admire some people, for their wisdom and their wise kind of life and actions.

 

 

Mein Freund, October Mädchen. entspannen. Ich bin mit dir spielen.

 

 

Wow, super! ;-) I do not know if I understand this correctly. It says, you play with me!? :-D

 

Best wishes

October.

Edited January 27, 2013 by October

[ChiDragon]

Hi,

 

My life includes various Asian views. Here, I would reply with the view in Zen: Statements are just words, it should be experienced to understand it. I think that means we should not think so much about life, but rather spend more time with (conscious) life.

My personal view.

 

Best wishes

October.

 

October.....

Welcome aboard.

 

Experience without words is just like no experience with words. Yes, I agree that a young person needs experience with mistakes to be experienced in life. Pretty soon, one will be experienced without words to explain the experience one has experienced in no experience.

[October]

It means that some things can not be explained, ... they can only be experienced.

 

Experience without words is not meant. :-)

 

Best wishes

October.

Edited January 27, 2013 by October

[ChiDragon]

How about just experiencing the words themselves....???

[Marblehead]

How about just experiencing the words themselves....???

And then once the concept is grasped the words can be forgotten.

[ChiDragon]

And then once the concept is grasped the words can be forgotten.

 

When time for review, new words are surfaced with a better clarification for comprehension.....

Edited January 27, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

When time for review, new words are surfaced with a better clarification for comprehension.....

You got that right! (And we can even use our own words without having to quote someone else. Hehehe.)

[Mark Saltveit]

Stigweard:

 

From my own experience the philosophy only comes alive when you engage in the practices that are synergistic with that philosophy. There is something quite profound when you take the words and philosophies from a text, for example Yin/Yang theory, and actually experience them as a living, breathing phenomena. It takes the philosophy from a level of understanding to a level of "knowing".

 

I absolutely agree. The question, though, is this -- should a modern American interested in Daoism copy ancient Chinese manifestations of it (practices) such as qigong, or look to our own culture?

 

IMHO, we run the risks of misunderstanding and of exoticism when we practice rituals and disciplines from another time and place that we do not truly know. Zhuangzi and the DDJ reduce the essence of Daoism to as few words as possible, which has the benefit of making them less culturally specific. (Russell Kirkland actually argues that the DDJ distorted Southern Chinese (Chu) Daoism to make it more palatable to Northern Chinese elites, as a "marketing ploy.")

 

It seems to me that the practices are more culturally specific than those two books, and Americans are better off looking for new manifestations of Dao closer in time, place and culture to our own lives, instead of imitating the way Chinese people have done it.

[dawei]

Stigweard:

 

 

I absolutely agree. The question, though, is this -- should a modern American interested in Daoism copy ancient Chinese manifestations of it (practices) such as qigong, or look to our own culture?

 

The problem may be where to find american equivalence of qigong so easily? It would seem that finding a martial art or qigong practice is not that hard but most are eastern based. If one wants to explore energy work, I am sure there are western alternatives out there but how to find it and validate it's background? (rhetorical for the most part).

 

IMHO, we run the risks of misunderstanding and of exoticism when we practice rituals and disciplines from another time and place that we do not truly know. Zhuangzi and the DDJ reduce the essence of Daoism to as few words as possible, which has the benefit of making them less culturally specific. (Russell Kirkland actually argues that the DDJ distorted Southern Chinese (Chu) Daoism to make it more palatable to Northern Chinese elites, as a "marketing ploy.")

 

Do you have a link to Kirkland's paper on this? Would be interesting to read as not many talk about Chu Daoism which seems to me to be the furthest back we can trace it.

 

 

It seems to me that the practices are more culturally specific than those two books, and Americans are better off looking for new manifestations of Dao closer in time, place and culture to our own lives, instead of imitating the way Chinese people have done it.

 

I think this is a good point. I would say that one need only look internally; get connected to their innate at the bottom and empty/open their upper chamber. But I think the challenge is that this can be not easy to do as self-taught practices and some things may be dangerous when pursued wrong.

 

Maybe this is similar to the American Taoist concept but your saying, I think, an American Taoist Practice concept (?).

 

But this is as a practice and not as a way of life idea.

[Mark Saltveit]

It seems to me that there are many approaches to Daoism's insights.

 

Energy work is especially culturally-specific because it's based on a radically different conception of the body, life forces, etc. I wouldn't look for an American qigong so much as other physical forms; ballet? dance? zumba? basketball? soccer? Maybe one still needs to be invented. Maybe yoga is the "American" solution. Or jogging.

 

A less culturally specific path is the approach Chuang Tzu taught with Butcher Ding, the wheelwright, the archer and others; pursuing a job, skill, sport or art so diligently, tirelessly and mindfully that even a humble butcher can teach the emperor about Dao. I call it, using your little dao to find the big dao.

 

For examples, I've written about gardening, standup comedy, playing guitar, writing, sports, and Nate Silver's political data scrying as modern manifestations. I'm not a big believer in separating spirituality from the rest of life, nor do I see much support for that in the DDJ or Zhuangzi. Otherwise, you become like one of those Christians who sin all week and make a big show of going to church on Sunday. (Or someone who claims Daoist principles but snarks and throws ego all about TTB.)

Edited January 29, 2013 by Mark Saltveit

[dawei]

Ok... glad you clarified with some examples. I taught soccer for many years and used The Art of War ideas... When my wife (chinese) saw me play ping pong the other day with another very good player she said, 'you guys are doing gong fu, not ping pong'... And chinese will say a taxi driver can be doing gong fu in his driving; or the butcher, etc. So I completely agree with what your laying out here as there is really no cultural barrier to this basic idea you present: using little dao to find big dao.

 

To me, this is the 'way of life' aspect; it does not have to be culturally-specific.

 

And you commented on the other issue which is a little more culturally -specific: If someone wants to practice energy work then they may be limited to cultures which have those practices. Or if someone wants to study Medical Qigong (as I have done a bit), then it gets more limiting as to the chances of finding someone that specialized. But I like how you show this comes out of cultures having a different view of the body, life force, etc.

 

I tend to think the ideal is to have a 'way of life' is one's practice... I once joked that the only time we're not natural is when we practice. Once we stop practicing we can get back to being one with nature. But I do find that the more I practice the less I want it to be a practice.