Further discussion

[manitou]

The title of the book, Buddahood without Meditation, I assume is referring to the vajra aspect of transcending the physical aspect of understanding....is he referring to the phenomena where the enlightenment is instantaneous and not as a partial result of the clearing-the-mind skills obtained by years of meditation? Is this what you got from it?

 

Referring to pg. xxiii of the Introduction, this would seem to be the case. He writes:

 

The most special approach, the most secret of secret paths, is the swift path of utter lucidity, the vajra pinnacle. Untainted by considerations of good or bad, timeless awareness is the naked union of awareness and emptiness, atemporal in its original purity. This is the inherently and fundamentally unconditioned natue of mind itself, the enlightened intent of kuntuzangzo, free of elaboration. This secret key point of view became completely evident to Dudjom Lingpa.

 

 

 

I'm not greatly attuned to the Buddhist structure, but certainly this corresponds with being in step with the Tao; untainted by considerations of good or bad, timeless. This writing seems to be the result of a great experience the author had with a vision, a dream, an encounter with immortals. When people speak of the "short path" on the forums, do you think this is the phenomena they speak of? An instantaneous awareness of utter lucidity that remains with us?

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Steve...

[doc benway]

I definitely think you're heading in the right direction with that interpretation.

I think that there is a point at which some people have a moment of complete lucidity.

I also think that it can manifest differently, based on that person's conditioning.

The truth itself is always that same but the way we then interpret that, narrate it to ourselves, and others, and so on, colors it.

I also think there are varying degrees of depth and breadth of insight, application, and the degree to which we honor it in our daily lives.

And different traditions refer to it in different ways but the truth is beyond any specific expression of it.

 

But at some point there does appear to be a before and after... before I was dreaming, now I am awake.

And so there does seem to be an instantaneous shift.

There certainly was for me, and it certainly has lingered, informed, and affected my life profoundly.

 

An interesting question is - to what degree is that influenced by what we do?

Whether that is meditation or any other activity or conceptualization. Then we can get into the discussion of whether meditation is an activity, what is the motivation associated with it, and all of that.

As Krishnamurti says - truth is a pathless land...

And as Fenner says - if I didn't do what I didn't need to do, I wouldn't know that I didn't need to do it in the first place.

 

And yes, I agree with you about looking at this as a short path. I don't consider myself an authority in the Buddhist traditions, so everything I say, to some degree, should be suspect. I think most people using the terms "short path" are referring to a 'method' by which we get somewhere or do something or change something in time. But that can never work because what is there to change and who is there to change it? But certainly there is change in our relative experience and it is spontaneous.

 

Nang jang (refinement of perception) is the other name given to the book and it is often referred to as a tool used to cut through (trek-cho). I think that this cutting through refers to making that incremental but profound shift of awareness, cutting through the dream, the mitote, and aiming at the space between thoughts - between what was and what will be; but nang jang equally destroys the concept of having to do anything or become something, or change anything to achieve that. It always already is.

 

Great idea for a project, Barb.

[manitou]

The funny thing about moments of lucidity like that are that the impressions stay with you, the details do not - or at least that's been my experience. I was driving through the desert one day and instantaneously I saw all things connected with lines. The clouds were attached to the trees with lines, the trees with the houses, the houses with the animals - everything was connected. I'll never forget that, and for an instant I got to 'see' how everything fit together, exactly. Then, once the moment had passed, the impression remained but I couldn't remember how it all fit together - the nuts and bolts had gone.

 

I was doing a reread of the Nag Hammadi gospels last night - they're so very much more interesting than the watered-down stuff that was allowed into the New Testament. Jesus kept telling his apostles to "Wake up!" but only one or two actually got the awareness of the connection, the Oneness, their actual spiritual divinity.

 

I always like it when you mention the space between thoughts. That's a great metaphor - it can be seen as a great colloid in which is contained all else; the background for the illusions and dreams. Like a grand hologram that appears, disappears, appears.....the space between thoughts is the screen for the movie.

 

I just got a mental picture. Imagine yourself suspended above the ocean, looking down at it. It's nighttime. Imagine that you can see all the beautiful stars and planets reflected all around you on the surface of the ocean. You want to get closer, it's so magnificent. You only see the stars, you don't know it's only a reflection. You ask to be lowered, closer, closer - to get closer to the beautiful array of stars. Suddenly, oh so rudely, your nose pokes into the cold wet ocean.

 

Damn! It's only water!

 

I'll go on to Part Two: Revealing the Meaning of the Main Text as the purpose of the Understanding later in the afternoon, or maybe tomorrow. Unless you can get to it first? (Reaching a decision through view...)

[doc benway]

I like your ocean reflection imagery.

Demello tells a good story, I'll try to condense it.

 

A homeless, destitute guy is laying on the side of the road. A Rolls stops and a gorgeous woman brings him into the car and takes him home. She has the attendant get him bathed, fed, clean clothes... wine... when he's tired he gets into a comfortable bed, for the first time in a very long time.

A moment later the woman sneaks into the room, lifts the blankets and tells him to slide over...

He slides over in anticipation and falls right into the river!

 

WAKE UP!

 

Sogyal Rinpoche mentions the moments of lucidity as being a glimpse, a tease, an initiation into the fraternity (sorority) of those who now have the opportunity to connect with what they know is already always there. What counts now is what we do with that. Can we let that truth inform our every action? Can you imagine committing to a life of doing absolutely nothing but allowing the sediment to settle and reveal pure clarity, always?

I do try to make space in each and every moment where I am able to be mindful of that but it is a never ending process, not a one time deal...

 

And each and every time we do that we are cutting through.

I don't have the book handy right now...

Talk to you soon.

Edited January 2, 2013 by steve

[manitou]

Paraphrasing page 3, prior to the beginning of the outline:

 

I like the way he consistently refers to the Timeless Principle; it's easy to forget that the Tao crosses the limits of time, and by referring to it as the timeless principle, it's a constant reminder.

 

He refers to the 5 kinds of degeneration that modern day man is subject to, thereby making it so that those seeking omniscience are 'numerous as daytime stars'. Funny, it never occurred to me to phrase it in that term: that I am seeking omniscience. I guess I am. I don't know how he categorizes the 5 kinds of degeneration, maybe you do? (I glanced through the intro again to see if they're listed there but didn't see it)

 

In his view (pg 3) when someone comes to the conclusion that their own minds are empty (passive consciousness), this is nothing more than a state of conceptualization. they remain in this state 'with nothing whatsoever to do and so are propelled toward rebirth among the gods of the desire and form realms, but this does not bring them even a hair's breadth closer to the path of omniscience'.

 

I'm not sure what a state of conceptualization is, and how it differs from real thinking, or having one's own 'original' thoughts (although none actually are!) I think maybe he's just referring to the ability to actually 'think' and not to 'parrot'? what thinkest thou?

 

At the end of pg 5, he mentions 3 categories found in the approach of natural Great Perfection (or as Jesus would have said, 'Be Ye Therefore Perfect'): The Category of Mind, the Category of Expanse, and the Category of Direct Tranmission. This text is termed the secret Category of Direct Transmission. I assume he's referring to the fact that he interacted with these immortals through his own contact, his own dreams or visions, and he essentially got this information from the horse's mouth.

 

I think I'll do a quick google on the Category of Mind (sem-dhe) and the Category of Expanse (long-dhe) to put them in a little better context to see how this triangulates with the Category of Direct Transmission (man-ngag-dhe). I'm not seeing the triangle yet.

[manitou]

Google results: This is given from the POV of the Aro lineage within Tibetan Buddhism. It is from the point of view of Dzogchen, characterized by uncommon simplicty. It taes as a basis our own intrinsic enlightened nature as the basis of practice, i.e. all beings are always already enlightened. It merely boils down to either dualistic or non-dual as a way of perceiving everything. Sem de refers to the preparation of the mind done by meditation, resulting in non-duality.

 

Long de (the Series of space) - concerned primarily with the experience of the energetic body - promotes physical exercises to experience unusual phenomena.

 

Men-ngag-de is the secret oral tradition handed down; this is the approach we're dealing with here.

Edited January 4, 2013 by manitou

[manitou]

Talking about PART TWO; Revealing the Meaning of the Main Text as the Purpose of the Undertaking.

 

The first major section, Reaching a decision through view, has four subsections. Mentioning the first one:

 

A. Reaching the definitive conclusion that all phenomena are inexpressible emptiness. (pg. 189)

 

'Personal identity' is merely an impression; underlying the personal identity impression is the awareness of an underlying consciousness, the concept of "I". the "I" dwells nowhere in the body - that must be transcended. (I think again of your idea of the space between the thoughts).

 

the other side of this is to reach a conclusion regarding the nonexistence of the identity of phenomena. To try and place labels on things; one can see the physical manifestation of a thing's properties, but it seems that the totality of any object is more of a 'verb' that is descriptive of function rather than anything that actually exists in perpetuity.

 

To me, this goes hand in hand with the concept of there not really being any 'time' either. Because our brains are laid out to see in a linear fashion, we are actually looking at phenomena which is timeless - there is no before, during or after. It's all happening now, only we're watching a 3-d movie without 3-d glasses. In order to understand the nature of a phenomena, one must include the Idea for the phenomena, but without the time-interference; rather, as a totality of yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

Somehow this Dream is laid out that we are placed at the intersection of the illusion of Time and Space

 

Row row row your boat

Gently down the stream,

Merrily merrily merrily merrily

Life is but a Dream

 

 

(Steve - I'm going to Calif. for a week to move my mom into the dementia ward at her assisted living place. I probably won't be online for a while - talk to you when I get back).

Edited January 6, 2013 by manitou

[doc benway]

Good luck with your mom, Barb. Sorry to hear what's going on - that's got to be painful.

I've been listening lately to Sogyal Rinpoche's audio presentation of Tibetan Wisdom for Living and Dying.

Beautiful stuff. Very much related to our discussion of Dzogchen.

I really like how he emphasizes the value and importance of our simple presence when dealing with the dying (and living).

 

I recently visited acquaintances in mourning for the death of their young daughter...

I was quite apprehensive and emotional about visiting.

I used the advice offered by Sogyal.

I simply made myself available, rested to the best of my ability in basic conscious awareness.

It was quite an experience and I'm very glad I went.

 

As far as the book goes, "Reaching the definitive conclusion that all phenomena are inexpressible emptiness."

It's very important to investigate what Tibetans mean when they use the word "emptiness."

Emptiness is NOT empty. Rather, they tend to mean something more along the lines of formlessness, without border or distinction, undifferentiated, boundless, spacious and open, lacking boundary, and so forth. To call it empty would violate the inexpressible condition. I personally enjoy the American approach - Great Mystery.

 

I had an insight a few years back out about it. It occurred to me that what we perceive as "real" and "solid" is nothing more than a consequence of our unique sensory apparatus which is specifically "tuned" to evoke our dream. What actually exists is a formless, boundless, space full of infinite potential - Great Mystery. Our sensory apparatus evokes from that our particular experience. And if that sensory equipment were to change, so would that experience. A rock is hard specifically because our skin is soft. Similarly, our sensory organs create the illusion of separation of us from other. The "space" which "separates" us from others and our surroundings is most certainly not "empty" - it's full of water vapor, gases, microorganisms, and who knows what else. And yet our senses of sight and touch, in particular, lend the perception of being surrounded by empty space as they are tuned to ignore what fills that space. But this whole perception of separateness is illusory. There is no self and other. Separate "me" from my atmosphere, my food source, solid ground, ... what happens? It doesn't work. The boundaries are imaginary. So what is, is not stuff and matter but rather an interaction between boundless spaciousness full of infinite potential and the clarity of presence or awareness (not perception) and vividness. Very hard to use words, hence "inexpressible emptiness."

Talk to you soon.

[manitou]

 

I simply made myself available, rested to the best of my ability in basic conscious awareness.

It was quite an experience and I'm very glad I went.

 

 

 

Isn't this the most wondrous lesson to learn in life? To do by Not Doing? This mindset removes all anxiety from anything, as far as I can see. Making one's self available in basic conscious awareness.

 

What you describe as the Great Mystery could also be called Latency. I always go back to the Oak being in the Acorn. The blueprint is there always. The manifestation takes its time.

 

Your observations about the relativity of our senses in comparison to external objects is wonderful. A rock is hard because our skin is soft - so nicely and simply said.

 

Looking at page 33, there is a paragraph:

 

"This space, since it cannot be injured, is invulnerable. Since space cannot be conqured or destroyed, it isi ndestructible. Since space abides as the basis for the unfolding of the world of appearances and possibilities, it is authentic. Since space cannot be altered by flaws or positive qualities, it is incorruptible. Sicne space is free of transition or change, it is stable. Since space completely permeates even the tiniest sub-atomic particle, it is in all ways unobstructed. and since nothing whatsoever can damage it, space is in all ways invincible."

 

As I was reading this, it reminded me of a balloon (or, if you prefer, a bellows, as it would say in the TTC) The balloon is there whether or not there is air in it. It is by breath inflating the balloon that manifestations take their rise. I sometimes think of the universe (as produced by the big bang) as being the other side of a white dwarf. Maybe the universe just breathes its manifestations in and out.

 

This is an interesting paragraph (page 47). "You may think that the relative validity of dream images is not equal to that of waking appearances. But think of all the dream experiences and waking experiences from your birth until the present - the activities and occupations, the effort and striving, the saving and planning. Consider whether these are equal. If you examine them closely, without considerering the short term versus the long term or more versus fewer occurrences of such experiences, you will arrive at the decision that they are equal."

 

This seems to be saying that our dreams and our physical life are one and the same. I guess they would be - it's all thought !

All we have to do to understand this is to remove the concept of time and the concept of quantity (more vs. fewer) to see that this is the case. We spend 'more' of our 'time' in the waking hours. We sit at the intersection of Time and Space to experience manifestation.

 

Note: Actually, I'm finding that trying to follow the outline is a little cumbersome. I've taken to just picking out interesting paragraphs in the book

[manitou]

Funny how people with dementia live so well in the moment, lol. If we put down all these damn books and just wait for dementia to set in, we'll be there with no effort at all. I expect my full awakening to happen within the next 5 years or so. then you will have to address me as Rinpoche or Master or something.

 

I was looking further down in the book - page 25 - and there is a paragraph that jumps out at me.

 

"On another occasion, when I encountered Orgyan Tsokyey Dorje - the enbodiment of the magical illusion of timeless awareness - he bestowed advice for refining my perception of things so that I could see that they are illusory. He said, "For me to untroduce you directly to the interdependence of causes and conditions coming together, consider this: The cause is the ground of being as basic space, which is pristinely lucid and endowed with the capacity for anything whatsoever to arise. the condition is a consciousness that conceives of an 'I.' From the coming together of theswe two, all sensory appearances manifest like illusions."

 

It occured to me once when I was attending a symphony that the moment when the conductor raises his baton, that moment of pregnant silence when everyone is waiting, is exactly what is described above: a moment pristinely lucid and endowed with the capacity for anything whatsoever to arise....I realized, when the music started, that the music was an elimination of possibility. The raised baton contained 360 degrees of expressive potential. By limiting the sound to a single note or notes is to eliminate 359 degrees of possibility and settle on the one degree that is expressed; the commitment has been made. The limitation has begun.

[Vmarco]

Buddahood without Meditation

 

Meditation is often a topic during discussions. Of course there is much to be said for meditation. On an other hand, history, which is of course written by the dominating, usually cerebral-centric tradition, is often considered the authority,…after all, many owe their livelihoods to sustaining such views.

 

In Buddhist/Daoist philosophy, there are two takes on meditation. One is non-meditation,...which Westerners loathe

 

 

"Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear." Lao-Tzu

 

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life." - Wei Wu Wei

 

“Mind is the basis of samsara and nirvana. Once you realize (its nature), rest in the ease of non-meditation.” Saraha

 

Refuge in sahaja, which is not preoccuppied with meditation or yoga techniques, is a permanent and effortless state of realization.

 

Kagyu, the fourth stream of mastery, says, "In a state of non-meditation, you attain Mahamudra."

 

Hui Neng reportedly scolded his monks for spending too much time sitting in meditation....He said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic.

 

“…gurus, meditation, and spiritual teachings are all gentle deceptions meant to soothe the inner coward, not forge the inner hero." Jed McKenna

 

"The state of non-meditation is born in the heart...." Jigme Lingpa

[Vmarco]

“If your purpose is to medicate dukkha (suffering),...then meditate. If your wish is bodhi,...practice absolute bodhicitta.” A Buddhist saying.

[Marblehead]

“If your purpose is to medicate dukkha (suffering),...then meditate. If your wish is bodhi,...practice absolute bodhicitta.” A Buddhist saying.

"And if this stuff confuses your mind then leave it alone." - Marblehead

[Vmarco]

"And if this stuff confuses your mind then leave it alone." - Marblehead

Maybe,...depends on how it is left alone. Consider that at least 84% Americans are in a deep sleep,...thus their world view pivots upon that deep sleep, which does not recognize any sort of higher-consciousness or truth realization. Those who have realized a level of higher-consciousness or truth realization, are treated as abnormal. In other words,...if confusion negates non-confusion, these subjects should not be left alone.

[Flolfolil]

wtf is this doing in the pit?

[BaguaKicksAss]

good question, that is odd... must have gotten moved by accident.

 

Edit: think it fits here?

[Jetsun]

Meditation can be just the practice of trying to become what you already are, which is just foolishness as you already are what you are looking for.

 

I have heard Zen masters say all spiritual practice is designed to fail, it is practised controlled folly, so you do all you can to try to get somewhere but in the end it leads to failure where you let go and rest in your own being where you realize you are what you are looking for and wake up. So Buddhahood won't be reached through meditation, except when meditation fails to bring you to Buddhahood. .

[manitou]

Meditation can be just the practice of trying to become what you already are, which is just foolishness as you already are what you are looking for.

 

I have heard Zen masters say all spiritual practice is designed to fail, it is practised controlled folly, so you do all you can to try to get somewhere but in the end it leads to failure where you let go and rest in your own being where you realize you are what you are looking for and wake up. So Buddhahood won't be reached through meditation, except when meditation fails to bring you to Buddhahood. .

 

Absolutely wonderful, Jetsun!

[Jeff]

Meditation can be just the practice of trying to become what you already are, which is just foolishness as you already are what you are looking for.

I have heard Zen masters say all spiritual practice is designed to fail, it is practised controlled folly, so you do all you can to try to get somewhere but in the end it leads to failure where you let go and rest in your own being where you realize you are what you are looking for and wake up. So Buddhahood won't be reached through meditation, except when meditation fails to bring you to Buddhahood. .

I agree with manitou. Beautifully said...

[Seeker of Wisdom]

The way I see it, we need a definite path with meditation and stages of attainment to get the kettle full and switched on, then the water just boils... these teachings of no path and non-meditation need to be taken in context IMO.

 

Most people aren't meditating or following a path, and I don't see them being spontaneously enlightened. And if you purposely follow a path of no-path, that's still a path because that non-doing is itself an action with an aim in mind!

 

Real non-meditation is for people who have got to the stage where they experientially see no distinction between samsara and nirvana, so they can just rest in rigpa/Buddha-nature/Thusness/Tao, and Buddhahood just blooms.

 

It's for people who have mastered shamatha and have deep wisdom from vipassana, who have done lots of meditation in the past.

 

Hui-neng's comments were made in reaction to dead-tree Zen being rampant in that place and time. If he were alive today, he would be screaming at people to work on shamatha.

 

Water goes instantly from not boiling to boiling - but it has to warm up to get to that point.

 

Zen also says to get a foundation with sila, samadhi and prajna. The advanced no-path, no-meditation, no-attainment stuff comes in when you have enough clarity that you are at the clifftop, the end of the path - THAT is when you just leap.

[RongzomFan]

Real non-meditation is for people who have got to the stage where they experientially see no distinction between samsara and nirvana, so they can just rest in rigpa/Buddha-nature/Thusness/Tao, and Buddhahood just blooms.

 

It's for people who have mastered shamatha and have deep wisdom from vipassana, who have done lots of meditation in the past.

 

I completely disagree. Its the exact opposite.

[Jetsun]

The way I see it, we need a definite path with meditation and stages of attainment to get the kettle full and switched on, then the water just boils... these teachings of no path and non-meditation need to be taken in context IMO.

 

Most people aren't meditating or following a path, and I don't see them being spontaneously enlightened. And if you purposely follow a path of no-path, that's still a path because that non-doing is itself an action with an aim in mind!

 

Real non-meditation is for people who have got to the stage where they experientially see no distinction between samsara and nirvana, so they can just rest in rigpa/Buddha-nature/Thusness/Tao, and Buddhahood just blooms.

 

It's for people who have mastered shamatha and have deep wisdom from vipassana, who have done lots of meditation in the past.

 

Hui-neng's comments were made in reaction to dead-tree Zen being rampant in that place and time. If he were alive today, he would be screaming at people to work on shamatha.

 

Water goes instantly from not boiling to boiling - but it has to warm up to get to that point.

 

Zen also says to get a foundation with sila, samadhi and prajna. The advanced no-path, no-meditation, no-attainment stuff comes in when you have enough clarity that you are at the clifftop, the end of the path - THAT is when you just leap.

Its a different time with different conditions, who really knows what Hui Neng would say or what is really required for the modern person. Many people learn how to concentrate pretty well in school these days, the whole way we are conditioned and influenced is different now than when many of the Buddhist paths were formulated, you might be trying to apply an old formula to a fresh situation.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I don't think people have concentration anything like samadhi concentration. The concentration used in school isn't absolute one-pointed effortless vivid focus.

 

Attention spans these days aren't great, people multitask constantly and are addicted to entertainment more than ever.

 

The situation now needs more focus on relaxation and contentment than in the past. I agree in altering with the times, but the basic principles will always hold.

[manitou]

Funny about meditation. After meditating for over 30 years, I no longer do it as a practice, but as an enjoyment, to get out of the illusion that I'm capable of falling into. Someone above mentioned 'controlled folly' - this is an expression that don Juan Mateus would use for when a shaman would make the decision to re-enter the emotions of the physical world, knowing that he could cut it loose at any time and choose to transcend.

 

There is something that happens to us after meditating for a very long time - the ability to stop the internal dialogue. This stoppage of dialogue is absolutely essential to lucidity when needed, when trying to 'see' or triangulate a situation. Other types of meditation involve examining one's thoughts and looking for the basis, thereby pulling by the roots the ego-centered or fear-based thought, condemnation, fear, or judgment. But there are other methods for this as well aside from the meditation - a more active search for our fears.

 

Actually, Steve and I intentionally started this conversation in the Pit, thinking it wouldn't be noticed. We wanted to stay on point and avoid the sometimes flippant remarks that can fly around. Foiled again, lol.

[Apech]

Meditation is the wrong word of course, because it means in English 'think about something'. Better words are cultivation, nurturing or waking up or something similar. There are lots of techniques for meditation ... calming, insight, energy circulation ... I use all of these when appropriate but I know they are what one Rinpoche said to me are 'toys' ... techniques for adjusting. If you sit and your mind is very scattered then you do a bit of calming (breath counting or similar) just to adjust ... then when you've done this ... in my experience you stop. You just then sit and notice (something like that).

 

So I just have a look to see how things are ... if my energy is blocked I do MCO maybe ... if my mind is all over the place I count breaths ... then when this phase has finished I start to do whatever that thing is we are talking about ...