Further discussion

[Anderson]

Stop meditating.

Meditation doesn't lead to liberation.

Knowledge of one's nature does.

[doc benway]

Knowledge doesn't lead to liberation either...

[Seeker of Wisdom]

How do you propose to know your nature without stabilising the mind in samadhi first? If you haven't done that, only the conscious mind is visible to you and the roots of delusion lie far deeper.

 

Letting go leads to liberation, but realisation is needed to let go naturally, from actually deep levels, rather than forcing it. Otherwise letting go is just another action with an outcome being sought!

 

People love talking advanced Zen type stuff with no understanding or experience of the context, foundations and stages of progression needed before this stuff applies. Not that I'm advanced, hell no, but I wouldn't have got even this far taking teachings intended for people radically further on than me and trying to apply them to myself.

 

Letting go of everything is all that's needed, but is that easy? Can someone who hasn't got reasonable wisdom do it - nope. Can someone with no samadhi develop reasonable wisdom - nope. Can someone develop samadhi without a reasonable level of virtue - nope.

 

Back to basics, folks. More 'profound' stuff applies later.

[Anderson]

Knowledge doesn't lead to liberation either...

Knowledge no.

But knowledge of one's nature yes.

[Anderson]

How do you propose to know your nature without stabilising the mind in samadhi first? If you haven't done that, only the conscious mind is visible to you and the roots of delusion lie far deeper.

 

Letting go leads to liberation, but realisation is needed to let go naturally, from actually deep levels, rather than forcing it. Otherwise letting go is just another action with an outcome being sought!

 

People love talking advanced Zen type stuff with no understanding or experience of the context, foundations and stages of progression needed before this stuff applies. Not that I'm advanced, hell no, but I wouldn't have got even this far taking teachings intended for people radically further on than me and trying to apply them to myself.

 

Letting go of everything is all that's needed, but is that easy? Can someone who hasn't got reasonable wisdom do it - nope. Can someone with no samadhi develop reasonable wisdom - nope. Can someone develop samadhi without a reasonable level of virtue - nope.

 

Back to basics, folks. More 'profound' stuff applies later.

 

You don't need any of that stuff.

Just forget it.And letting go doesnt lead to liberation.Self-liberation leads to liberation.

Self liberation implies knowledge and seeing of one's nature.

 

Stabilizing your mind and attaining samadhi is just a conceptual path.

And i am not talking about zen.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Anderson

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well I'm kind of sad now. There was an excellent discussion about "Buddhahood Without Meditation" going and then a few people, whom obviously never read the book or even tried to understand what Dudjom Lingpa was saying cut in with their own opinions and biases, furthering their own belief systems and bolstering their own egos. Why do people do that?

 

Steve, it is not in 'the gap between thoughts' because (according to BWM) when you are in ordinary mind, marigpa, all phenomenon are obscurred by the non-recognition of awareness. When you are subject to the 'non-recognition of awareness', the normal reality manifests meaning that the five elements manifest. Further, according to this book, "Identity" is the cause of reality, not just the belief that you yourself exists, but that objects and phenomenon have an identity. The minute you perceive an identity, yours or some other object apart from yourself you have solidified your state into the normal ground of being. Recognizing a thought or a gap between two thoughts implies that you, the watcher are still perceiving. A thought is a thought. It has identity. The gap has identity. The "gap between thoughts" is just a misunderstanding that some ignorant meditation teachers teach. What use is recognizing that there is a valley between two waves on the surface of the ocean? The gap is just the manifestation of space caused by the belief in identity.

 

 

page 95 BWM:

 

"When the true face of the ground aspect of buddhahood -a state of purity and mastery over the ground of being- is obscured by the non-recognition of awareness (ma-rig-pa), the kayas and timeless awareness -the inate glow of the ground of being- subside into an inner glow whose readiance (dang) is directed outwardly, unfolding as the display of the five elements through the light of five colours. This takes place in the following way.

"When timeless awareness as the basic space of phenomena is obscured by the nonrecognition of awareness, the outwardly directed radiance manifests as dark blue light. This is termed the 'inner element', 'major element', or 'subtle essence of space'. When this radiance is fixated on as having substance and conceived as truly existing, it manifests as space."

 

 

Crucial to these writings is the tenet that the belief of identity, that is, our belief that we exist and other objects actually exist is the cause of our reality. That belief causes the manifestion of the five elements (space, water, fire, earth, air). That belief creates us.

 

 

The cause is the ground of being as basic space (zhi-ying), which is pristinely lucid (dang-sal) and endowed with the capacity for anything whatsoever to arise. The condition is a consciousness that conceives of a 'I'. From the coming together of these two, all sensory appearances (nang-wa) manifest like illusions.

 

 

So, at the beginning of the book, the chapters tell us that there is no "I", there are no other objects, that everything is in fact empty, and that one must adjust your belief system or view.

 

 

The guru replied, "At no time throughout the beginningless succession of lifetimes has there ever been actual birth. There has been only the appearance of birth. There has never been actual death, on the transformation of sensory appearances, like the shift from the dream state to the waking state. All sensations -seen, heard, smelled, tasted, and felt as forms, sounds, odors, tastes, and tactile sensations by the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and skin- are merely the mind being conscious of its own projections (rang-nang), without ever having even a hair's tip of existence as something else.

 

 

The BWM goes on to say:

 

 

if you do not know that emptiness is the essence that must be cultivated in meditation, then all of your attempts at meditation will surely be ineffectual.

 

 

And then this:

 

 

The key point is that you cultivate these two aspects of sublime knowing in your mind-stream initially as understanding, later on as a personal experience, and finally as the attainment of indwelling confidence (ding).

 

 

And then, for those of you who think that non-meditation is not just that, on a superficial level, not meditating, perhaps you should read the whole book. But, if you want to disadvantage yourself by not taking the time to read the whole book, then at least read this part:

 

 

"Understanding this fundamental nature, you give up the three kinds of physical activity -good, bad, neutral- and sit like a corpse in a charnel ground, with nothing needing to be done. You likewise give up the three kinds of verbal activity, remaining like a mute, as well as the three kinds of mental activity, resting without contrivance like the autumn sky free of the three polluting conditions. This is termed 'formal meditative equipose' (nyam-par zhap-pa). It is also termed 'letting go of anything to be done' or 'nothing needing to be done' (jar-med), since all manner of activities have been given up, and 'beyond ordinary consciousness' (lo-day), since there is no contrivance by ordinary consciousness. In the context of this key point, you will discover a great indwelling confidence.

 

Furthermore, at all times while going about sitting, shifting, moving, repeating mantra, speaking aloud, thinking, or otherwise conducting yourself, without losing the perpective of view (ta-wa) you are aware that the world of appearances and possibilities is like an illusion. Without losing the indwelling confidence of your meditation (gom-pa), you are aware of your fundamental nature (ngang) becoming evident..

 

 

So, there is a form of meditation... sitting like a corpse and doing absolutely nothing, while maintaining the view that all is empty. However, emptiness is not an absence of everything, emptiness is omniscience, it is luminous, infinite and knows all.

 

Most of the quotes I have quoted in this post address some of the posts in this thread, but it is not my job to educate everyone. I would suggest that you get the book and read it.

 

Last comment, Manitou, when you say that you stop your inner dialog, I assume you mean the voice in your head. But, do you classify the visions as a form of inner dialog? I know that the visions also dissolve during meditative-equipose so I was just wondering if you've managed to let the visions dissolve into space as well..

 

 

TI

Edited August 5, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Anderson, if it's so easy, are you liberated yet?

 

Clean the mirror, then try looking in it. Otherwise you only see the dirt.

 

If you haven't attained samadhi, you simply can't see your nature because only the coarse layers of the mind are visible to your coarse awareness.

 

I said 'Zen type stuff' meaning 'advanced teachings with no path or attainment, just seeing your own nature, that are completely impractical for people who aren't as advanced as the original intended recipients'.

 

Skilful means - these sorts of teachings are useful at very advanced levels, not at our level. If we try to follow these teachings, they are useless impractical words which become just another belief.

 

Be practical. Walk up to the Gateless Gate before trying to walk through without moving.

 

I'm done here. Best of luck, if you suddenly get liberated with practically no effort I'll be glad. But tbh, I won't be holding my breath lol.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Seeker of Tao

[RongzomFan]

There is a reason "Buddhahood without Meditation" clearly states in the beginning that its only for those with transmission.

Otherwise you get people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about, commenting on it.

[manitou]

Well I'm kind of sad now. There was an excellent discussion about "Buddhahood Without Meditation" going and then a few people, whom obviously never read the book or even tried to understand what Dudjom Lingpa was saying cut in with their own opinions and biases, furthering their own belief systems and bolstering their own egos. Why do people do that?

 

Steve, it is not in 'the gap between thoughts' because (according to BWM) when you are in ordinary mind, marigpa, all phenomenon are obscurred by the non-recognition of awareness. When you are subject to the 'non-recognition of awareness', the normal reality manifests meaning that the five elements manifest. Further, according to this book, "Identity" is the cause of reality, not just the belief that you yourself exists, but that objects and phenomenon have an identity. The minute you perceive an identity, yours or some other object apart from yourself you have solidified your state into the normal ground of being. Recognizing a thought or a gap between two thoughts implies that you, the watcher are still perceiving. A thought is a thought. It has identity. The gap has identity. The "gap between thoughts" is just a misunderstanding that some ignorant meditation teachers teach. What use is recognizing that there is a valley between two waves on the surface of the ocean? The gap is just the manifestation of space caused by the belief in identity.

 

 

 

 

Crucial to these writings is the tenet that the belief of identity, that is, our belief that we exist and other objects actually exist is the cause of our reality. That belief causes the manifestion of the five elements (space, water, fire, earth, air). That belief creates us.

 

 

 

 

So, at the beginning of the book, the chapters tell us that there is no "I", there are no other objects, that everything is in fact empty, and that one must adjust your belief system or view.

 

 

 

 

The BWM goes on to say:

 

 

 

 

And then this:

 

 

 

 

And then, for those of you who think that non-meditation is not just that, on a superficial level, not meditating, perhaps you should read the whole book. But, if you want to disadvantage yourself by not taking the time to read the whole book, then at least read this part:

 

 

 

 

So, there is a form of meditation... sitting like a corpse and doing absolutely nothing, while maintaining the view that all is empty. However, emptiness is not an absence of everything, emptiness is omniscience, it is luminous, infinite and knows all.

 

Most of the quotes I have quoted in this post address some of the posts in this thread, but it is not my job to educate everyone. I would suggest that you get the book and read it.

 

Last comment, Manitou, when you say that you stop your inner dialog, I assume you mean the voice in your head. But, do you classify the visions as a form of inner dialog? I know that the visions also dissolve during meditative-equipose so I was just wondering if you've managed to let the visions dissolve into space as well..

 

 

TI

 

 

Triangulation isn't the same as seeing visions IMO. When one has found the pony at the bottom of the manure heap and Knows Ones' Self, one is capable of seeing the innards of others, as we are all the same entity (or non-entity, if you'd rather). But the stream of thought must be quieted in order to gain an unbiased perspective and keep our own ego out of the mix. I'm not talking about lucid dreaming or seeing those types of visions. The comment earlier about cleaning one's own glass (darkly) is very valid. I believe that to be the crux of the matter, the inner journey to clarity. These two concepts must be combined to develop Eyes.

 

As we're having this discussion I happen to be doing a re-read of the Nag Hammadi Scriptures, in particular the Tripartite Tractate. As you're no doubt aware, the Nag Hammadi scriptures are those that Constantine would not allow into the New Testament because he certainly didn't want the populous to be aware of the capacity for individual enlightenment - therefore many of these excellent works were hidden by monks and holy men because they knew that Constantine was looking for the best means of controlling the populous by means of a religious structure, not helping them enlighten themselves. These writings were found in 1948 in a cave in Nag Hammadi, Egypt.

 

Please substitute the word Dao or any other word you would like for the word 'Father'. It's all the same. In Codex 71, 35 through 73,18, I see a wonderful connectedness to what we're talking about here. Please note in particular the first sentence where the Spirit gives members of the All (all of us collectively then, now, and future - as time is an illusion): (The lacunae are in parenthesis)

 

"For the Father, he exalted one, they know by his Will, which (is) the Spirit that breathes through the members of the All and gives them a thought to search for the unknown, just as somebody is moved by a fragrance to seek the source of that fragrance - and the fragrance of the Father surpasses such unworthy things. For its sweetness lets the aeons sense an indescribable pleasure, and gives them the thought that they should be united with the one who desires that they should know him in oneness, and that they should assist one another through the spirit that is sown in them. They find themselves in a great and powerful inbreathing where they are renewed in a speechless manner and are formed, having no occasion to turn away through thoughtlessness from that in which they are placed. For they do not speak but are silent about the glory of the Father, about him who has the power to speak.

"He manifested (himself), though he cannot be spoken. they have (him) hidden in their thoughts; for that reason the aeons keep silent about the way the Father exists in his form, his nature, and his greatness, but they have become worthy of knowing this through his Spirit. For he is unnamable and inaccessible, but through his Spirit, which is the trace by which he may be sought, he gives himself to them to be thought and spoken. For each of the aeons is a name corresponding to each of the Father's qualities and powers. Since he exists in many names, it is by mingling and through mutual harmony that they are able to speak of him, by means of a richness of speech. Thus, the Father is a single Name because he is One, but nevertheless innumerable in his qualities and names."

 

 

What an odd thing, that we all have the thought implanted to seek the unknown, the unsayable. This must be the very thing that keeps us coming back to each other on this forum, year after year. The attempt to say the ineffable. We find the ineffable through a combination of cleaning our own dark glass and finding the inner silence; and yet the closest thing we can do to express that which we find is to love each other as ourselves - this seems to be the dynamic undercurrent. That which we seek seems to be the intersection of Love your Brother as Yourself, Be Here Now, and Know Thyself. As far as I can see, this is the tripod of the Oracles of Delphi, in a sense.

 

I rather like the concept of a cosmic soup of sorts, where phenomena (such as our perceived selves) rise and fall. We appear as an animated ripple for a short time only to return to the ocean, resting again in the All. I also like the concept of throwing quantum physics into the mix as well - matter as both a particle and a wave. The concept of aeons, as mentioned above, connotates the concept of time, as it takes time to measure a wave from point A to point B - even a wave of probability. But we are also a particle, a piece of perceived matter. Somehow the intersection of the two creates the illusion of this 'physical' place we seem to live. But meditation seems to be capable of removing both the sense of bodily matter as a reality, and time as reality. Something quite magic about it, IMO. Seems to be the closest we can get to Mind. And Love seems to be the dynamic motivator of what Mind seems to want to accomplish, because it is only through acting with Love that anything of value can be produced. Anything accomplished with ego gratification or hatefulness will not last.

 

Everyone who has ever lived and died is here with us now.

Those who are here now are here with us now.

Those who are yet to be born are here with us now.

 

(I don't even know why I threw that last thing in. It just kind of blows my mind a bit).

Edited August 5, 2013 by manitou

[Jetsun]

Anderson, if it's so easy, are you liberated yet?

 

Clean the mirror, then try looking in it. Otherwise you only see the dirt.

 

If you haven't attained samadhi, you simply can't see your nature because only the coarse layers of the mind are visible to your coarse awareness.

 

I said 'Zen type stuff' meaning 'advanced teachings with no path or attainment, just seeing your own nature, that are completely impractical for people who aren't as advanced as the original intended recipients'.

 

Skilful means - these sorts of teachings are useful at very advanced levels, not at our level. If we try to follow these teachings, they are useless impractical words which become just another belief.

 

Be practical. Walk up to the Gateless Gate before trying to walk through without moving.

 

I'm done here. Best of luck, if you suddenly get liberated with practically no effort I'll be glad. But tbh, I won't be holding my breath lol.

 

Practice through effort, various capabilities, and so on are irrelevant to primordial nature.

 

Practice through searching is the cause of exhausting oneself, adding labeling and examination to

complication.

Meditation within a framework is encagement once again. May miserable complication be cut off from

the inside

Within dharmata unspoiled by efforts of rejection or practice, may I enter the meaning of spontaneous

being

Though there is labeling of phenomena—a foundation to be understood, a path to be traversed, and a fruit

to be obtained, in true self-nature these are like sequences in space. May I dwell spontaneously in the meaning of nondoing

- From The Manjushri great perfection prayer

So there you have the great contradiction, there is a path to be traversed and a fruit to be obtained yet it is all just like sequences in space, not relevant to your primordial nature

Edited August 5, 2013 by Jetsun

[doc benway]

Knowledge no.

But knowledge of one's nature yes.

I respectfully disagree.

Most people interested in spiritual cultivation have the knowledge of what they are at an intellectual level and yet they are not liberated. The knowledge is not enough, it is just a concept. The Buddhists refer to the sutra path as requiring countless lifetimes to achieve liberation - this is because it is a conceptual approach to something that is outside of concept and rationality.

Direct contact with one's nature is needed, not a concept.

Hence the reference to Dzogchen as potentially leading to liberation in a single lifetime - because it is a non-conceptual approach.

edited to add - I suspect that we are in agreement in principle and I'm simply challenging your use of the word 'knowledge'

Edited August 6, 2013 by steve

[RongzomFan]

Why would you question his use of the word "knowledge" which is a direct translation for rigpa?

[RongzomFan]

Hence the reference Dzogchen as potentially leading to liberation in a single lifetime

 

What Dzogchen teachings have you received

[doc benway]

Well I'm kind of sad now. There was an excellent discussion about "Buddhahood Without Meditation" going and then a few people, whom obviously never read the book or even tried to understand what Dudjom Lingpa was saying cut in with their own opinions and biases, furthering their own belief systems and bolstering their own egos. Why do people do that?

 

Hence our decision to start this thread in the pit...

 

 

 

Steve, it is not in 'the gap between thoughts' because (according to BWM) when you are in ordinary mind, marigpa, all phenomenon are obscurred by the non-recognition of awareness.

 

I actually borrowed that phrase from Allan Wallace and Khenchen Thrangu...

I wasn't referring to the gap between the thoughts in the untrained mind that is bound in samsara.

I believe that Wallace (and my intention) was referring more to the mind that has stabilized somewhat in tranquility; the mind that has already had insight into emptiness - the mind that is spacious, clear, and somewhat stable; following the last thought to have arisen and not yet disturbed by the next.

In this place of spaciousness and clarity, there is an opportunity to make contact with our true nature.

It is not difficult to connect with rigpa because it is too far or too inaccessible.

It is difficult because it is too close, too ubiquitous.

And this is just a step in development, a place we can first start looking for the nature of mind in our practice.

Once the nature of mind is tasted, it can be accessed not only between thoughts but behind thoughts.

Ultimately, all things (concepts, mental formations, appearances) are seen as an empty display of mind.

 

PS - I would also be careful with how you use the words 'ordinary mind' as this can also refer to pristine awareness. I'm assuming that you are using it more to refer to samsaric mind

[doc benway]

Anderson, if it's so easy, are you liberated yet?

 

Clean the mirror, then try looking in it. Otherwise you only see the dirt.

 

If you haven't attained samadhi, you simply can't see your nature because only the coarse layers of the mind are visible to your coarse awareness.

 

I said 'Zen type stuff' meaning 'advanced teachings with no path or attainment, just seeing your own nature, that are completely impractical for people who aren't as advanced as the original intended recipients'.

 

Skilful means - these sorts of teachings are useful at very advanced levels, not at our level. If we try to follow these teachings, they are useless impractical words which become just another belief.

 

Be practical. Walk up to the Gateless Gate before trying to walk through without moving.

 

I'm done here. Best of luck, if you suddenly get liberated with practically no effort I'll be glad. But tbh, I won't be holding my breath lol.

 

I think that there is truth to what you are saying.

I also think that it is not that unusual for folks to have direct insight into their true nature without all of the preparation.

The primary difference is that the preliminary training will be of enormous benefit in stabilizing the manifestation of pristine awareness.

The unprepared, untrained mind may have a profound experience of rigpa every bit as credible and genuine as the advanced monk, but it will generally be a transient experience that will fade and may or may not be rekindled and accessible over time.

The mind that is prepared through proper training will have a much better chance of maintaining and stabilizing the connection.

This is a common thread in all of the Dzogchen literature I've encountered (and has also been my own experience).

[RongzomFan]

Steve, weren't you taking a shit on Buddhists in the other thread?

[RongzomFan]

The unprepared, untrained mind may have a profound experience of rigpa every bit as credible and genuine as the advanced monk

 

Dudjom Rinpoche wasn't a monk. Kunzang Dechen Lingpa wasn't a monk.

 

Most high Dzogchenpas aren't monks. Most Dzogchenpas aren't monks.

 

Seriously, what are you talking about?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hence our decision to start this thread in the pit...

 

 

 

 

I actually borrowed that phrase from Allan Wallace and Khenchen Thrangu...

I wasn't referring to the gap between the thoughts in the untrained mind that is bound in samsara.

I believe that Wallace (and my intention) was referring more to the mind that has stabilized somewhat in tranquility; the mind that has already had insight into emptiness - the mind that is spacious, clear, and somewhat stable; following the last thought to have arisen and not yet disturbed by the next.

In this place of spaciousness and clarity, there is an opportunity to make contact with our true nature.

It is not difficult to connect with rigpa because it is too far or too inaccessible.

It is difficult because it is too close, too ubiquitous.

And this is just a step in development, a place we can first start looking for the nature of mind in our practice.

Once the nature of mind is tasted, it can be accessed not only between thoughts but behind thoughts.

Ultimately, all things (concepts, mental formations, appearances) are seen as an empty display of mind.

 

PS - I would also be careful with how you use the words 'ordinary mind' as this can also refer to pristine awareness. I'm assuming that you are using it more to refer to samsaric mind

Hi Steve,

 

You said this:

Nang jang (refinement of perception) is the other name given to the book and it is often referred to as a tool used to cut through (trek-cho). I think that this cutting through refers to making that incremental but profound shift of awareness, cutting through the dream, the mitote, and aiming at the space between thoughts - between what was and what will be; but nang jang equally destroys the concept of having to do anything or become something, or change anything to achieve that. It always already is.

 

I do not believe that Nang Jang is saying to aim at the space between thoughts. It is more like the thing to strive for is the view that nothing truly exists, that everything is empty, and that nirvana and samsara are equal constructs of the 'non-recognition of awareness' due to grasping at identity.

 

I do not recall Alan Wallace ever saying that aiming at the space between thoughts was something to strive for, that that is where rigpa lives. I have had this discussion before in other threads. If Alan Wallace did say that, even with all the conditions that you've stated, I would like to know exactly where he said that. According to Alan Wallace, first you stabilize the coarse mind until you can participate in the finer mind. Then, the finer mind, the substrate consciousness collapses into the substrate. From there, one must break on through to the other side, as Alan puts it, in order to experience rigpa. However, there is another kind of rigpa, that which the Bernzine Archives speak of, which is a sort of child or son rigpa, that type of awareness which is common place and easily recognizable. However, the son rigpa is a small subset and when the realization occurs, it joins 'mother rigpa' which is the type of rigpa that Alan Wallace speaks of. The event, according to Alan is hard to miss.. There is a black out period, it feels like dying or travelling in an unknown... it does not last long. Soon after, the true rigpa appears and you gain realization.

 

However, I believe that Nang Jang is not even concerned with gaps or spaces between thoughts, or between then and now, etc.. As a matter of fact, BWM says that all practices are pretty much useless unless one practices from an understanding of emptiness. The crux is strictly a shift in point of view and then maintaining that point of view.

 

One more comment.. Within this post, I am using the term "ordinary mind" as it is being used in BWM.

 

From BWM:

Ordinary mind views samsara and nirvana as existing in their own right (rang-gyud) and perceives sensory appearances as having substance. this constitutes nonrecognition of the way in which the ground of being abides. From this, mental events originate and cease, being caught up with sense objects. This is likened to a drop of water falling onto dry earth.

 

I realize that posting in the Buddhist forum, where the mean ogres live is a potentially hazardous venture, especially if one does not have their terminology quite exact. Many pages have been posted here in an effort to differentiate and segregate, a pastime which I find no pleasure in. My greatest fear is that I may be becoming just like them.. :0

 

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

Triangulation isn't the same as seeing visions IMO. When one has found the pony at the bottom of the manure heap and Knows Ones' Self, one is capable of seeing the innards of others, as we are all the same entity (or non-entity, if you'd rather). But the stream of thought must be quieted in order to gain an unbiased perspective and keep our own ego out of the mix. I'm not talking about lucid dreaming or seeing those types of visions. The comment earlier about cleaning one's own glass (darkly) is very valid. I believe that to be the crux of the matter, the inner journey to clarity. These two concepts must be combined to develop Eyes.

 

As we're having this discussion I happen to be doing a re-read of the Nag Hammadi Scriptures, in particular the Tripartite Tractate. As you're no doubt aware, the Nag Hammadi scriptures are those that Constantine would not allow into the New Testament because he certainly didn't want the populous to be aware of the capacity for individual enlightenment - therefore many of these excellent works were hidden by monks and holy men because they knew that Constantine was looking for the best means of controlling the populous by means of a religious structure, not helping them enlighten themselves. These writings were found in 1948 in a cave in Nag Hammadi, Egypt.

 

Please substitute the word Dao or any other word you would like for the word 'Father'. It's all the same. In Codex 71, 35 through 73,18, I see a wonderful connectedness to what we're talking about here. Please note in particular the first sentence where the Spirit gives members of the All (all of us collectively then, now, and future - as time is an illusion): (The lacunae are in parenthesis)

 

"For the Father, he exalted one, they know by his Will, which (is) the Spirit that breathes through the members of the All and gives them a thought to search for the unknown, just as somebody is moved by a fragrance to seek the source of that fragrance - and the fragrance of the Father surpasses such unworthy things. For its sweetness lets the aeons sense an indescribable pleasure, and gives them the thought that they should be united with the one who desires that they should know him in oneness, and that they should assist one another through the spirit that is sown in them. They find themselves in a great and powerful inbreathing where they are renewed in a speechless manner and are formed, having no occasion to turn away through thoughtlessness from that in which they are placed. For they do not speak but are silent about the glory of the Father, about him who has the power to speak.

"He manifested (himself), though he cannot be spoken. they have (him) hidden in their thoughts; for that reason the aeons keep silent about the way the Father exists in his form, his nature, and his greatness, but they have become worthy of knowing this through his Spirit. For he is unnamable and inaccessible, but through his Spirit, which is the trace by which he may be sought, he gives himself to them to be thought and spoken. For each of the aeons is a name corresponding to each of the Father's qualities and powers. Since he exists in many names, it is by mingling and through mutual harmony that they are able to speak of him, by means of a richness of speech. Thus, the Father is a single Name because he is One, but nevertheless innumerable in his qualities and names."

 

 

What an odd thing, that we all have the thought implanted to seek the unknown, the unsayable. This must be the very thing that keeps us coming back to each other on this forum, year after year. The attempt to say the ineffable. We find the ineffable through a combination of cleaning our own dark glass and finding the inner silence; and yet the closest thing we can do to express that which we find is to love each other as ourselves - this seems to be the dynamic undercurrent. That which we seek seems to be the intersection of Love your Brother as Yourself, Be Here Now, and Know Thyself. As far as I can see, this is the tripod of the Oracles of Delphi, in a sense.

 

I rather like the concept of a cosmic soup of sorts, where phenomena (such as our perceived selves) rise and fall. We appear as an animated ripple for a short time only to return to the ocean, resting again in the All. I also like the concept of throwing quantum physics into the mix as well - matter as both a particle and a wave. The concept of aeons, as mentioned above, connotates the concept of time, as it takes time to measure a wave from point A to point B - even a wave of probability. But we are also a particle, a piece of perceived matter. Somehow the intersection of the two creates the illusion of this 'physical' place we seem to live. But meditation seems to be capable of removing both the sense of bodily matter as a reality, and time as reality. Something quite magic about it, IMO. Seems to be the closest we can get to Mind. And Love seems to be the dynamic motivator of what Mind seems to want to accomplish, because it is only through acting with Love that anything of value can be produced. Anything accomplished with ego gratification or hatefulness will not last.

 

Everyone who has ever lived and died is here with us now.

Those who are here now are here with us now.

Those who are yet to be born are here with us now.

 

(I don't even know why I threw that last thing in. It just kind of blows my mind a bit).

Hi Manitou,

Thank you for your response. Currently, I let the visions dissolve too. I treat them like thoughts which dissolve on their own too. I have also found that ego is created by thinking, by conceptualization and if that is not occuring, then the ego doesn't play an active role.

 

Thank you so much for the mention about the "Nag Hammadi Scriptures".

 

So far, every time I read your quote, my heart opens a little more and I'm overcome with emotion and longing.. I've been there before and I shall return again..

 

This part:

 

"For the Father, he exalted one, they know by his Will, which (is) the Spirit that breathes through the members of the All and gives them a thought to search for the unknown, just as somebody is moved by a fragrance to seek the source of that fragrance - and the fragrance of the Father surpasses such unworthy things. For its sweetness lets the aeons sense an indescribable pleasure, and gives them the thought that they should be united with the one who desires that they should know him in oneness, and that they should assist one another through the spirit that is sown in them. They find themselves in a great and powerful inbreathing where they are renewed in a speechless manner and are formed, having no occasion to turn away through thoughtlessness from that in which they are placed. For they do not speak but are silent about the glory of the Father, about him who has the power to speak.

 

Perhaps I have found my next book to read.. Thank you!

 

TI

[rex]

There is a reason "Buddhahood without Meditation" clearly states in the beginning that its only for those with transmission.

 

Otherwise you get people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about, commenting on it.

 

Rather indelicately put but spot on.

 

Fair play to Steve for bringing it to genuine seekers' attention. As the translators' dedication goes, "May all those who encounter such a precious text have the good fortune to receive the lineage transmission from a realized master and bring to fruitition its incomparable belssings."

 

So why buy the book if you haven't had transmission then? In his introduction Chagud Rinpoche continues, "As Dudjom Rinpoche notes in the Afterword, the words of this text are the "relics of the dharmakaya." They may be read by those who have received the teachings personally from a lama who holds the lineage; until such time the text should be kept as an object of worship on one's shrine. If this condition is met, there is no doubt that one will emerge victorious in the battle with counterproductive circumstances and obstacles, and that supportive circumstances will bring benefit immeditely in this lifetime and on into the future."

 

edit: glaring tpyos

Edited August 6, 2013 by rex

[Anderson]

Dear tao bums,

 

The end is near.

Dont waste your time meditating and accumulating virtues.

Listen to our beloved masters who speak about the essence of the path always.

The true teacher always introduces the knowledge of reality to their students from the beginning of the path.

If you fail to see the nature in that moment dont worry.There are various methods to employ in order to discover that.It may take a while but once you know for yourself what the essence is all you have to do is that moment by moment to recognize it and rest in it. This way you practice the essence and there is no greater practice than this.

 

We have been conditioned to solidify our fear of not being advanced enough by way of practicing virtues and meditations which can only develop qualities which have nothing to do with our nature.This is similar to building muscle by going to a gym.You are building muscle but you lack brain.

 

It is astonishing how we fail to realize that that which is beyond any limitation can never be improved or touched by accumulating virtues and qualities.It is also astonishing how we don't see that all these qualities , stability, tranquillity, virtues, samadhis are only related to our temporary vission which in order to exist it needs a body and an identity.If we want to attain total liberation we need to go beyond all these limitation into nature itself which is beyond time and space but unfortunately all those qualities and meditations can never escape time.The only hope we have with these dualistic practices is to improve our dualistic mind or samsaric experience. Which is fine if you want to continue to enjoy a samsaric experience.But you won't achieve liberation.That's for sure.

[Protector]

No

[Apech]

No

 

Noo

[RongzomFan]

Preach on brother Anderson.

 

You either recognize or you don't.

 

There is no middle ground.

[Ish]

It is astonishing how we fail to realize that that which is beyond any limitation can never be improved or touched by accumulating virtues and qualities.It is also astonishing how we don't see that all these qualities , stability, tranquillity, virtues, samadhis are only related to our temporary vission which in order to exist it needs a body and an identity.If we want to attain total liberation we need to go beyond all these limitation into nature itself which is beyond time and space but unfortunately all those qualities and meditations can never escape time.The only hope we have with these dualistic practices is to improve our dualistic mind or samsaric experience. Which is fine if you want to continue to enjoy a samsaric experience.But you won't achieve liberation.That's for sure.

 

 

So you know from personal experience that the knowledge of your nature will continue after you lose this physical body, and that you will not return to transmigration?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Ish