Further discussion

[RongzomFan]

So you know from personal experience that the knowledge of your nature will continue after you lose this physical body, and that you will not return to transmigration?

 

That's not how it works.

[Ish]

That's not how it works.

 

I recall reading that if one can remain in their real nature (dzogchen) in the bardo then they will not reincarnate.

 

True or false?

[Anderson]

That is correct.

Those who stabilized enough their nature during their lifetime will have lots of chances in the bardo according to the capacity of the practitioner.The superior ones will exit very early and the inferior ones will exit-or not at all- very late when is much more difficult due to the overwhelming experiences at that stage.Those who exit are only liberated from samsara but dont achieve buddhahood yet.

 

I recall reading that if one can remain in their real nature (dzogchen) in the bardo then they will not reincarnate.

 

True or false?

 

 

Recognition or discovery of one's nature is not enough to have 100% certainty that after leaving the physical body you wont continue your journey through the cycle of rebirths.

And my personal experience is very limited.I only know through direct experience what my nature is but haven't stabilized it yet.

This process of stabilization can take decades.Unless one decides to spend lots of time in retreat in which case it can still take a whole decade but that however depends of that person's diligence.And then let's not forget thogal which can take, again, a very long time to complete.

 

We only have to look at the masters of the past and see what their level of dedication was and how many decades they've lived in strict retreat to understand that once rigpa has been discovered, if you want to bring it to its full measure and be liberated you need to offer your entire life to it.It would be very arrogant of me to believe that i can do it better or in less time than they did it.I can only work with myslef as i am right know and right know i am very far from their level of commitment and diligence. Believing otherwise would be pure fantasy.

 

So you know from personal experience that the knowledge of your nature will continue after you lose this physical body, and that you will not return to transmigration?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Anderson

[Ish]

Thanks

[doc benway]

Hi Steve,

 

You said this:

 

 

I do not believe that Nang Jang is saying to aim at the space between thoughts. It is more like the thing to strive for is the view that nothing truly exists, that everything is empty, and that nirvana and samsara are equal constructs of the 'non-recognition of awareness' due to grasping at identity.

 

Perhaps not. I do think it's a useful aid for folks new to the material and that is how I intended that comment.

 

I agree with your intent as I understand it but I wouldn't use the phrase "that nothing truly exists." It has too nihilistic a connotation for my taste. I find it important to remind myself that appearances and perceptions are equally not non-existent. Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche has a nice discussion on this in Chapter 10 of "Vivid Awareness" which I'm currently reading.

 

 

 

I do not recall Alan Wallace ever saying that aiming at the space between thoughts was something to strive for, that that is where rigpa lives. I have had this discussion before in other threads. If Alan Wallace did say that, even with all the conditions that you've stated, I would like to know exactly where he said that. According to Alan Wallace, first you stabilize the coarse mind until you can participate in the finer mind. Then, the finer mind, the substrate consciousness collapses into the substrate. From there, one must break on through to the other side, as Alan puts it, in order to experience rigpa. However, there is another kind of rigpa, that which the Bernzine Archives speak of, which is a sort of child or son rigpa, that type of awareness which is common place and easily recognizable. However, the son rigpa is a small subset and when the realization occurs, it joins 'mother rigpa' which is the type of rigpa that Alan Wallace speaks of. The event, according to Alan is hard to miss.. There is a black out period, it feels like dying or travelling in an unknown... it does not last long. Soon after, the true rigpa appears and you gain realization.

 

However, I believe that Nang Jang is not even concerned with gaps or spaces between thoughts, or between then and now, etc.. As a matter of fact, BWM says that all practices are pretty much useless unless one practices from an understanding of emptiness. The crux is strictly a shift in point of view and then maintaining that point of view.

 

One more comment.. Within this post, I am using the term "ordinary mind" as it is being used in BWM.

 

From BWM:

 

I'm fairly certain Wallace uses this suggestion in the retreat I've been listening to recently. It's very long and I can't tell you exactly when he mentions it. If it comes up again, I'll make note of it. It was recorded in Australia but I'm not sure when.

 

This isn't something I came up with, rather I've seen the concept referenced in multiple sources. I'm pretty sure it is mentioned in "Vivid Awareness" and possibly "Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen" translated by Keith Dowman. It is mentioned in "Freedom in Bondage" by Adeu Rinpoche. A longer excerpt can be found at the Buddhadharma Quarterly web archive:

 

"The great yogi Milarepa said, “In the gap between the past thought and the next thought, thought-free wakefulness continuously dawns.” This is the way it is, whether you recognize it or not. The difference is being able to recognize it; the opportunity to do so is there all the time. This is the training.

 

In the beginning, as a thought vanishes, that is called stillness. As a new thought arises, that is called occurrence. Bringing attention to what is happening is called noticing. These three—stillness, occurrence, and noticing—have to do with becoming increasingly aware of the gap between thoughts. This aware quality grows stronger and stronger only with training. You cannot artificially increase this. Here, the difference between shamatha and vipassana is the difference between recognizing that which is noticing and the actual awake quality."

 

 

Funny you mention the Berzin archive as it is mentioned there as well in a discussion of the fundamentals of Dzogchen.

 

 

I realize that posting in the Buddhist forum, where the mean ogres live is a potentially hazardous venture, especially if one does not have their terminology quite exact. Many pages have been posted here in an effort to differentiate and segregate, a pastime which I find no pleasure in. My greatest fear is that I may be becoming just like them.. :0

 

 

TI

 

I couldn't agree with you more!

Consequently, I may bow out.

_/\_

[RongzomFan]

In his introduction Chagud Rinpoche continues, "As Dudjom Rinpoche notes in the Afterword, the words of this text are the "relics of the dharmakaya." They may be read by those who have received the teachings personally from a lama who holds the lineage; until such time the text should be kept as an object of worship on one's shrine. If this condition is met, there is no doubt that one will emerge victorious in the battle with counterproductive circumstances and obstacles, and that supportive circumstances will bring benefit immeditely in this lifetime and on into the future."

 

Yup, you need to have transmission from someone who holds the Dudjom lineage, before reading the book.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

This isn't something I came up with, rather I've seen the concept referenced in multiple sources. I'm pretty sure it is mentioned in "Vivid Awareness" and possibly "Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen" translated by Keith Dowman. It is mentioned in "Freedom in Bondage" by Adeu Rinpoche. A longer excerpt can be found at the Buddhadharma Quarterly web archive:

 

"The great yogi Milarepa said, “In the gap between the past thought and the next thought, thought-free wakefulness continuously dawns.” This is the way it is, whether you recognize it or not. The difference is being able to recognize it; the opportunity to do so is there all the time. This is the training.

 

In the beginning, as a thought vanishes, that is called stillness. As a new thought arises, that is called occurrence. Bringing attention to what is happening is called noticing. These three—stillness, occurrence, and noticing—have to do with becoming increasingly aware of the gap between thoughts. This aware quality grows stronger and stronger only with training. You cannot artificially increase this. Here, the difference between shamatha and vipassana is the difference between recognizing that which is noticing and the actual awake quality."

 

 

Funny you mention the Berzin archive as it is mentioned there as well in a discussion of the fundamentals of Dzogchen.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree with you more!

Consequently, I may bow out.

_/\_

Hi Steve,

Well, yes, there is allot of misinformation out there about rigpa. Most fail to distinguish between the son rigpa and the mother rigpa. The common error that all those sources all make, is that they don't differentiate between the two. They make it sound like you just notice the space between two thoughts and that is rigpa. Well, it is good for beginners but there is allot more to it than that. Yes, I even pointed out the Berzin Archives because he too missed the distinction.

 

These are my reasons:

 

1) First off, there is no gap between thoughts. If you perceive a gap or space between two thoughts, you just haven't gotten deep enough. You are just sitting on the surface. There is no gap or space between thoughts. As you get deeper, you will see thousands of thoughts.

 

2) If realizing rigpa were so easy, so simple, then why would Alan Wallace make such a big deal about attaining shamatha before you can break on through to recognize rigpa? Alan Wallace is talking about mother rigpa, the big rigpa. The one he describes as "impossible to miss", "a major event" and "lots of bliss, joy, clarity...".

 

3) If mother rigpa, the big rigpa were so easy to recognize, why must a Dzogchen practitioner have a transmission for that? And why must it be shown to students? And then why do so many students miss it? It is very easy to recognize that you are aware. It is too easy to recognize that you are aware.

 

Here are some writings from Alan Wallace about rigpa. Note that he calls it the dharmakaya:

My commentary returns again and again to one particular dilemma presented in this initial section of the Vajra Essence: In its descriptions of meditation states, does the language at a given point refer to the substrate consciousness—the alayavijñana—or to the dharmakaya—that is, pristine awareness, or rigpa? The substrate consciousness is the foundation and source of an individual’s psyche. Accessing it is the proper end of shamatha practice. The dharmakaya, or buddha mind, on the other hand, is much deeper than the individual mind, and that is realized through the practice of Dzogchen. The

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence . Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

In this next quote, he actually calls rigpa Buddha Nature:

 

Primordial consciousness, your own rigpa, or pristine awareness, is that out of which all relative states of consciousness emerge and is nondual from the absolute space of phenomena. In that ultimate reality, the minds of all the buddhas—past, present, and future—are all of the same taste in that absolute space of phenomena. They are undifferentiated. This, then, is the ultimate lineage—if indeed we can label something that transcends time and is inconceivable as a “lineage.” The second of these three Dzogchen lineages is the “symbolic lineage of the vidyadharas.” Vidya is Sanskrit for rigpa, “pristine awareness”; dhara is “one who holds.” So a vidyadhara is literally “one who holds pristine awareness.” A more precise meaning is “one who has gained a conceptually unmediated, nondual realization of rigpa, of buddha nature.”

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (p. 2). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

more..

 

The ground of the ordinary mind, the substrate consciousness, is not “ground awareness”—synonymous with buddha nature, rigpa, and dharmakaya. The ground of the ordinary mind is individual, conditioned, and linear within time—it is within the causal nexus.

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (pp. 14-15). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

more..

Comparing the two—the ordinary ground of the mind (alayavijñana) and the clear light of death (rigpa, dharmakaya)—I would characterize the former as a relative vacuum state of consciousness and the latter as the absolute vacuum state of consciousness. They are not the same; they are qualitatively different, and they need to be distinguished. How do you achieve the former apart from falling into deep sleep or dying? How do you deliberately gain access to the ground of the ordinary mind? By way of meditative quiescence—shamatha. That is what shamatha is good for.

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (p. 15). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

just being aware of thoughts or gap between thoughts is not rigpa..

 

Recognizing thoughts “with mindfulness and introspection is called awareness,” but this is not rigpa. This is just simple, straightforward “being aware.” “With that explanation, come to know these points.”

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (p. 118). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

And he even says that Dudjom Lingpa ridicules the marmot practice..

“Open presence” is a very loose translation of the Tibetan term rigpa chog zhag, which literally means “resting in pristine awareness.” This refers to the “breakthrough” phase of Dzogchen practice, and to engage in such authentic meditation, you must first gain an experiential realization of rigpa, and then simply rest—without distraction and without grasping—in this ultimate-ground state of consciousness. This practice is simply sustaining the Dzogchen view: viewing all phenomena from the perspective of rigpa. However, without having such realization of rigpa, one is simply resting in one’s ordinary dualistic mind, like a marmot sunning on a rock, and this does not qualify as shamatha, vipashyana, or Dzogchen. Düdjom Lingpa ridicules such practice by citing the Tibetan aphorism, “The marmot ostensibly cultivating meditative stabilization is actually hibernating.”24

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (p. 133). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

Here, the mind must dissolve into the substrate consciousness as Dudjom Lingpa describes:

 

That is definitely not true of the substrate. The substrate is not the ground of nirvana. It is the ground of samsara, your own particular samsara. You can get to that space by withdrawing from the senses and from conceptualization—by simplifying and going into the cubbyhole of your substrate. Although that is not rigpa, Düdjom Lingpa says this experience of bliss, luminosity, and vacuity is indispensable on the path. We can postpone the achievement of shamatha as long as we like, while venturing into far more esoteric meditations. But if we want to come to the culmination of the cultivation of bodhichitta, vipashyana, the stages of generation and completion, and Dzogchen, sooner or later we need to focus single-pointedly on shamatha practice and carry through with it until our minds dissolve into the substrate consciousness as Düdjom Lingpa describes. This may take months or even years of full-time shamatha practice, and that calls for real sacrifice. But if we refuse to take up this challenge, all the other more advanced practices we explore are bound to hit a ceiling that we cannot transcend due to the imbalances of excitation and laxity that we have yet to overcome.

Wallace, B. Alan (2011-08-23). Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence (pp. 175-176). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

 

It takes months or even years of full-time shamtha practice.. Now tell me again that the space between two thoughts is this type of rigpa.. ?

 

However, the book "Vivid Awareness" uses the term rigpa as simply "awareness":

RECOGNIZING THE EXPERIENCE OF RESTING What does it feel like to rest like that? If you rest like that, your mind-essence is clear and expansive, vivid and naked, without any concerns about thought or recollection, joy or pain. That is awareness (rigpa).

Thrangu Rinpoche, Khenchen (2011-01-11). Vivid Awareness: The Mind Instructions of Khenpo Gangshar (Kindle Locations 2166-2169). Shambhala. Kindle Edition.

 

There is no mention of viewing awareness from a non-dualistic perspective in that book.

 

It seems that rigpa is a kind of generic term and is does not have a consistent meaning with reference to Buddism or Dzogchen.

 

You know, I could not find a reference to where Milarepa said that quote, except for one web page where it claimed that he said that.. http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2012/2/10/two-great-paths.html

It is an interesting page. It also says this on that page:

Recognizing the awakened state of rigpa is not enlightenment, but the path towards enlightenment. You still need to develop the full strength of this recognition by training continually.

 

Back to Milarepa....

However, I did find a more elaborate quotation from Milarepa and it says this:

http://medicinebuddhasangha.org/teachings/milarepa.html

 

The basis abides like space. Buddhas abide in the dharmakaya. Sentient beings are like muddy water and experience suffering. But there is a path to purify our obscurations. This practice is staying in the moment where past thoughts have ceased and future thoughts have not yet arisen. This state is a complete, vast openness. There is no grasping to thoughts as they arise. Even as they do arise, they cannot do any harm, as they then just cease. So we should remain in that state.

What does contrived or fabricated mean? Look at the mind. The one who knows thoughts is our own awareness. As thoughts arise they immediately dissipate. That is great openness. But if we follow thoughts along, then our mind is obscured and becomes contrived or fabricated. As soon as we hold onto a thought like anger, the mind becomes obscured. So we should remain in a state of mindful awareness. As a result one will immediately recognize thoughts as they arise and not grasp at them. Since the cause is uncontrived, so will be the result, and our mind will be purified. This is the uncontrived state of mahamudra.

 

So, I think Milarepa is saying not that the gap between two thoughts is rigpa, but that the state where thoughts arise yet there is no grasping is the state to remain in. But it does seem that Alan Wallace and Dudjom Lingpa are calling rigpa the big event where most others are calling ripga just normal awareness..

 

Isnt' Buddhism fun? I've rather enjoyed this little excursion. It helps me keep my dharma up..

 

TI

Edited August 7, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[doc benway]

Very nice and informative post TI - I appreciate all the time you took to put that together.

 

I guess I'm not quite ready to bow out.....

 

I didn't mean to imply that simply noticing the gap between thoughts is resting in rigpa.

I don't think any of the resources I quoted do either.

I'm not sure they are mistaken or misleading, rather I think that they are offering this as a starting point, as I was, to begin the practice, not claiming this to be the culmination.

It's simply a way to get newcomers to notice the space and clarity that exist when they are not being carried around by thoughts.

This space and clarity has a different feel than the thought train.

 

And there is no question that what seems clear and spacious to the beginner compared to the coarse thoughts is filled with fragments of thoughts, fleeting images, subtle feelings, emotions, and so on.

Just like the ocean has very obvious large waves, then many more smaller ones, then the swells and surges, then ripples, and so on.

And releasing and liberating all of these is like peeling the onion, or allowing the agitated water to settle, and this is what samatha practice is all about.

And finding stability is even more challenging - this is where a solid foundation in samatha is so valuable.

 

On the other hand, I do think it is much closer to us than we realize and I think it is not an insurmountable feat to get a glimpse.

Especially to those with some meditation experience.

The next step is then to achieve stability (a formidable goal) and finally to bring this into our daily lives and deaths...

 

And I do think we're beating this to death...

 

 

edited to add:

PS - Wallace also makes it a point to very clearly state that achieving samatha is not a prerequisite to realizing rigpa. He gives multiple examples of this. On the other hand, having a solid foundation in both tranquility (samatha) and insight into emptiness (vipassana) makes it much more likely and is certainly required for stability. To give a weak analogy - if you give an average person a baseball bat and put them in front of a good pitcher, it is conceivable that they will hit the ball once in a while and may even hit a home run if the circumstances are just right. If that person trains for several years under the guidance of an expert coach, their chances of hitting the ball consistently will improve dramatically.

Edited August 7, 2013 by steve

[manitou]

This doesn't pertain to any post in particular, but it seems that to walk an enlightened path is to be able to transcend all structure, whether Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Hindu, whatever. It now means to me to Walk My Talk and not to worry about which particular structure I found to get me there.

 

Please let me give this as an example, and it is not ego from which this springs forth. The Zimmerman verdict drove me nuts. I decided at that moment to walk my talk and I've been going to a black Baptist church in the very poorest area of town. I have absolutely no use for anything Baptist - but I've never seen more Love being Demonstrated in any church I ever went to in my younger years. They don't talk 'about' the Bible, they Live their Love. They immediately enfold you in their love, and of all people who by all measure should be resentful because of the continual inequity of their lives, instead they will meet you with love regardless of the color of your skin. The continual undercurrent of the message is to Love your Brother as Yourself, and they know that this applies to the privileged whites as well (which we still have a few of in this town left over from the pottery industry barons).

 

To argue about which particular method we use, what type of meditation, any of this.....if we don't go the further step and Walk our Talk it is still just mental folly. Transcend, friends.

[doc benway]

So, I think Milarepa is saying not that the gap between two thoughts is rigpa, but that the state where thoughts arise yet there is no grasping is the state to remain in. But it does seem that Alan Wallace and Dudjom Lingpa are calling rigpa the big event where most others are calling ripga just normal awareness..

 

Isnt' Buddhism fun? I've rather enjoyed this little excursion. It helps me keep my dharma up..

 

TI

 

I agree with you regarding Milarepa.

 

In terms of Allan Wallace and Dudjom Lingpa, my view is that rigpa is both the big event and "normal awareness."

Just like phenomena are both empty of inherent existence and unceasing, eg not existent and not non-existent.

Similarly, "normal awareness" is the miracle of clarity existing in infinite spaciousness.

One does not occur without the other, both are inherent characteristics of mind.

Spaciousness has the quality of clarity and clarity has the quality of spaciousness.

For most of us most of the time, it is so filled with distraction (samsara and nirvana) that the "pristine awareness" is invisible and way too subtle to be noticed, like the ocean to the fish (another weak analogy).

 

The big event is the moment of realization of our true nature. For some the realization can be very gradual and progressive and the big event may seem not so big (Wallace talks about this). For others, the recognition of our true nature is earth shattering and life altering. The echoes can reverberate for the rest of their lives, but without proper practice and proper view it will fade and will not be stable.

 

"Normal" awareness is not so normal. It is rigpa, it is miraculous, it is bliss, it is all the things the sages rant and rave about.

Yet it is so familiar and so full of the consequences of karma that it is mundane. If we can achieve enough insight and stability to actually come into contact with it without all of the baggage... well, probably best to not try to use words for that.

[RongzomFan]

This doesn't pertain to any post in particular, but it seems that to walk an enlightened path is to be able to transcend all structure, whether Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Hindu, whatever. It now means to me to Walk My Talk and not to worry about which particular structure I found to get me there.

 

Taoists, Christians, Hindus don't display rainbow body i.e. enlightenment.

 

HH Dudjom Rinpoche, who did have full realization of rainbow body, says very clearly you have to be Buddhist.

 

Read "A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom".

[RongzomFan]

It seems that rigpa is a kind of generic term and is does not have a consistent meaning with reference to Buddism or Dzogchen.

 

Rigpa definitely means knowledge. Even in Madhyamaka texts (See Nagarjuna's Reason Sixty), rigpa is knowledge. Rigpa is just Tibetan for knowledge.

[RongzomFan]

Main problem in this thread, is that most people are not talking about rigpa (dzogchen context).

 

They are only talking about 1 out of 3 wisdoms of rigpa: kadag.

 

The lhun grub wisdom, on the other hand, has to do with secret esoteric practices such as dark retreat.

Edited August 7, 2013 by alwayson

[manitou]

Alwayson - you become enlightened when you come to the inner realization that you are enlightened. It is an inner knowledge, not something you read about in a book. Read Castaneda and realize that a true shaman is enlightened, I don't care what your Buddhism says. The Nazarene talks about enlightenment in the Nag Hammadi. What makes your Buddhism any righter than anything else? All paths end up in the same place, the place of the I Am consciousness, if the paths are followed out to the end.

 

I met an enlightened master when I was in the second grade; he was also in the second grade. He taught me a Buddhist mantra which guarantees instant enlightenment - perhaps you will see the instant flash if you repeat it anywhere from one to ten times, out loud. Start slow, and then gradually build up to regular conversation speed. It goes as follows:

 

O-wah

Tah-goo

Siam

 

Repeat it and see what happens!

[Apech]

Alwayson - you become enlightened when you come to the inner realization that you are enlightened. It is an inner knowledge, not something you read about in a book. Read Castaneda and realize that a true shaman is enlightened, I don't care what your Buddhism says. The Nazarene talks about enlightenment in the Nag Hammadi. What makes your Buddhism any righter than anything else? All paths end up in the same place, the place of the I Am consciousness, if the paths are followed out to the end.

 

I met an enlightened master when I was in the second grade; he was also in the second grade. He taught me a Buddhist mantra which guarantees instant enlightenment - perhaps you will see the instant flash if you repeat it anywhere from one to ten times, out loud. Start slow, and then gradually build up to regular conversation speed. It goes as follows:

 

O-wah

Tah-goo

Siam

 

Repeat it and see what happens!

 

To be fair to Alwayson I think his main objection was to people talking about Dzogchen who are not Dzogchen practitioners and do not have the transmission or the right instructions to understand the detail involved.

 

You mention several paths there ... and if you spoke to many people who follow those paths they would not agree with your definition of the end goal "the I Am consciousness" - as you put it. In fact I don't recognise that from Castaneda or mystical Christianity either.

[RongzomFan]

Manitou,

 

Enlightenment means rainbow body i.e. seeing the proper display of the basis (gzhi)

 

I don't know what you mean by enlightenment.

Edited August 8, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

I Am consciousness

 

Ok I get it. You are a neo-Advaita type.

 

What you consider enlightenment, is only day 1 for us.

 

We start with recognizing unfabricated presence, or whatever you want to call it, at the very beginning.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Ok I get it. You are a neo-Advaita type.

 

What you consider enlightenment, is only day 1 for us.

 

We start with recognizing unfabricated presence, or whatever you want to call it, at the very beginning.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Rigpa definitely means knowledge. Even in Madhyamaka texts (See Nagarjuna's Reason Sixty), rigpa is knowledge. Rigpa is just Tibetan for knowledge.

Alwaysoff,

Gee, you must be mistaken. Or perhaps William Mckay is not a Hindu?

 

You certainly chose the Sankrit meaning of the term 'rigpa'.

 

This is directly from the "BuddhaHood Without Meditation" book:

 

 

 

and here the references to the letter codes for the multiple meanings of the term 'rigpa'..

 

 

 

So, we can clearly see that in Sanskrit the meaning is vidya, which means 'knowledge'. But look at all those other definitions. Who says yours is right?

 

 

 

And just so you are aware, the first definition references the "CS" source. The "CS" stands for "Circle of The Sun" . But you knew that, right? being a scholar and all...

Edited August 8, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[Tibetan_Ice]

To be fair to Alwayson I think his main objection was to people talking about Dzogchen who are not Dzogchen practitioners and do not have the transmission or the right instructions to understand the detail involved.

 

Hi Apech,

This is a public forum. People should not be subject to abuse, caustic remarks, arrogance and pithy statements that don't explain anything other than to make people feel ignorant and stupid. Further, they should not have to put up with anti-religious statements, hatred, spiritual elitism and the constant pile of shit that Alwaysoff dishes out.

 

You do not have to be a Dzochenpo or have a transmission in order to discuss the teachings. Various Dzogchen teachers have said this, including CN Norbu and Alan Wallace. It is not the Spirit of Dzogchen, nor is it the Spirit of Buddhism.

 

Further, Alwaysoff has never disclosed whether he has had a transmission, from whom, and to what lineage his samaya binds him (if any of this is actually true) so I don't see any reason why he feels that anyone would have to prove their spiritual lineage in order to discuss any topic on this forum. It is the moderators fault that Alwaysoff gets away with his crap.

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30749-bias-against-new-age/?p=462913

There is no misunderstanding. Buddhism is the only true path that leads to liberation.

 

And thanks for feeding the bear.

 

TI

[Jetsun]

Its bullshit that you need initiation to discuss the concept of Buddhahood without meditation, your natural state is your natural state, it isn't owned by Dzogchen or anyone else, anyone could realise it at any time because it isn't something given to you it is something which is always present. Extremists like Alwayson like to turn it into something exclusive to try feel special and superior but the clue is in its name, it is your natural state, it is ubiquitous to everyone.

[Anderson]

Dzogchen is secret.

There is no way around that.

CNNR always says not to discuss dzogchen with those who do not have transmission.

People who dont have transmission can discuss as much as they like.There won't be anything happening beyond an intellectual grasp.

 

 

[Apech]

Hi Apech,

This is a public forum. People should not be subject to abuse, caustic remarks, arrogance and pithy statements that don't explain anything other than to make people feel ignorant and stupid. Further, they should not have to put up with anti-religious statements, hatred, spiritual elitism and the constant pile of shit that Alwaysoff dishes out.

 

You do not have to be a Dzochenpo or have a transmission in order to discuss the teachings. Various Dzogchen teachers have said this, including CN Norbu and Alan Wallace. It is not the Spirit of Dzogchen, nor is it the Spirit of Buddhism.

 

Further, Alwaysoff has never disclosed whether he has had a transmission, from whom, and to what lineage his samaya binds him (if any of this is actually true) so I don't see any reason why he feels that anyone would have to prove their spiritual lineage in order to discuss any topic on this forum. It is the moderators fault that Alwaysoff gets away with his crap.

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30749-bias-against-new-age/?p=462913

 

And thanks for feeding the bear.

 

TI

 

Sure its a public forum and I was defending the right of Alwayson to express himself as long as he stays within the house rules.

 

I am not a student of Dzogchen but I understand the text under discussion is a Dzohchen text for which a transmission is required. There is nothing wrong with Alwayson stating this.

[Jetsun]

If its your natural state anyone can realize it at any time, you have no idea if they have realized it beyond the intellectual.

[Apech]

Its bullshit that you need initiation to discuss the concept of Buddhahood without meditation, your natural state is your natural state, it isn't owned by Dzogchen or anyone else, anyone could realise it at any time because it isn't something given to you it is something which is always present. Extremists like Alwayson like to turn it into something exclusive to try feel special and superior but the clue is in its name, it is your natural state, it is ubiquitous to everyone.

 

Well you may consider it bullshit but I was taught Buddhism is this same way ... you need a transmission to study a text. This idea may be alien to you but within Tibetan Buddhism this is how it works. This is not an extremist view and I don't see why Alwayson cannot express it.