Further discussion

[Anderson]

If its your natural state anyone can realize it at any time, you have no idea if they have realized it beyond the intellectual.

You are mistaken.

Your natural state needs to be pointed out to you.

The only thing you will ever manage on your own is to wander endlessly through the thicket of your conceptual elaborations always asking yourself "Is it this? Is it that? Or maybe is this?...." and so on never being able to come to the place of rest where the nature is recognized in all its glory beyond any doubt.

[Jetsun]

 

Well you may consider it bullshit but I was taught Buddhism is this same way ... you need a transmission to study a text. This idea may be alien to you but within Tibetan Buddhism this is how it works. This is not an extremist view and I don't see why Alwayson cannot express it.

Ok, to study the text and to study the concept of Buddhahood without meditation are two different things. Maybe he has a point but I am like Tibetan Ice and have had enough of him aggressively shitting on anyone who mentions anything that resembles Buddhism on this site, he is like the Buddhist Taliban

[Jetsun]

You are mistaken.

Your natural state needs to be pointed out to you.

The only thing you will ever manage on your own is to wander endlessly through the thicket of your conceptual elaborations always asking yourself "Is it this? Is it that? Or maybe is this?...." and so on never being able to come to the place of rest where the nature is recognized in all its glory beyond any doubt.

That is an assumption, I have had pointing out instructions from a few different lineages not Dzogchen and they all point to the same thing, the main reason people miss it is because it is so simple rather than because it is difficult or hard to discover. I'm sure the extremists and those who think Dzogchen is spiritually superior will now tell me that my instructions are not the real thing or somehow lesser, I have heard it all before.

[C T]

That is an assumption, I have had pointing out instructions from a few different lineages not Dzogchen and they all point to the same thing, the main reason people miss it is because it is so simple rather than because it is difficult or hard to discover. I'm sure the extremists and those who think Dzogchen is spiritually superior will now tell me that my instructions are not the real thing or somehow lesser, I have heard it all before.

Not everyone can derive the same benefit or have the correct mind in place when they go receive pointing out instructions.

 

Its not which system bestows a more quality-assured pointing-out, nor which lama is more superior.

 

At the end of the day, its the student's connection with the instruction that counts for everything.

 

If your connection is strong, you develop the tenacity to recognize mind essence again and again, resting often in the spacious unfabricated sky-like nature until it becomes a spontaneous habit.

 

If the connection is weak, then the tendency to lose the inspiration among daily preoccupations is very much the norm, and after a while, the clarity gets clouded over and the light is lost. Which explains why many students like to hang around teachers and follow them everywhere they go teach. They want to borrow the teachers' light.

 

For those who have the spiritual merit already generated, just one introduction is sufficient to generate great faith to practice on one's own.

[doc benway]

wtf is this doing in the pit?

My guess is that it is now becoming clear...

 

 

 

good question, that is odd... must have gotten moved by accident.

No accident

 

 

Edit: think it fits here?

Nope, not really

 

[doc benway]

You are mistaken.

Your natural state needs to be pointed out to you.

The only thing you will ever manage on your own is to wander endlessly through the thicket of your conceptual elaborations always asking yourself "Is it this? Is it that? Or maybe is this?...." and so on never being able to come to the place of rest where the nature is recognized in all its glory beyond any doubt.

 

In my opinion, you are the one who is mistaken.

For some, the natural state manifests itself spontaneously.

For many, pointing out is required.

And pointing out can come from a wide variety of sources, experiences, and traditions.

There is only one natural state, it does not differ based on one's religion, culture, or philosophy.

Once it is recognized, the Dzogchen teachings are completely transparent.

Recognizing the natural state is not that difficult, although maintaining and stabilizing it is.

[Apech]

In my opinion, you are the one who is mistaken.

For some, the natural state manifests itself spontaneously.

For many, pointing out is required.

And pointing out can come from a wide variety of sources, experiences, and traditions.

There is only one natural state, it does not differ based on one's religion, culture, or philosophy.

Once it is recognized, the Dzogchen teachings are completely transparent.

Recognizing the natural state is not that difficult, although maintaining and stabilizing it is.

 

Yes indeed, it is of course a self evident truth that if the natural state is the natural state then it must be there for everyone and not just Buddhists. Also true that spontaneous awakening occurs. No doubt. However being human those who have these experiences inevitably conceptualise them in culturally familiar terms ... so the words used about the natural state will be different ... and then comes all the debate and argument. However if the subject is Dzogchen then this is a specific teaching in Bon and Buddhism which is the base, path and fruit. It is a non-dualist path leading to complete realisation. It can be compared to Mahamudra and Lamdre teachings in the way that the teachings are expressed (although the process and terminology are different). So it is not completely without peers.

 

I don't think its a good idea for us to sink into the 'all paths are the same' kind of approach. They are not. Buddhism is not Taoism is not Christianity ... and so on. You could compare the Tao to the dharmakaya I suppose ... and even to the Holy Spirit perhaps with a bit of mental stretching ... but I don't see where that gets you. What we should uphold, I feel, and this is not always done, is respect for other paths. We don't need to turn them into one vague mush to do this. Just as we respect other people who are different to ourselves we can respect other paths and teachings.

[Anderson]

In my opinion, you are the one who is mistaken.

For some, the natural state manifests itself spontaneously.

For many, pointing out is required.

And pointing out can come from a wide variety of sources, experiences, and traditions.

There is only one natural state, it does not differ based on one's religion, culture, or philosophy.

Once it is recognized, the Dzogchen teachings are completely transparent.

Recognizing the natural state is not that difficult, although maintaining and stabilizing it is.

Well, your opinion doesn't count.

What counts is what the tradition of dzogchen says.

And as a counterargument, yes , for many outside of dzogchen or from other religions the state can manifest spontaneously but they wouldn't recognize it and they would discount it as nothing special since they lack the proper instruction and explanation of how this nature is the base of all, being primordial purity and beyond everything but in the same time the source of everything.And lets not forget the interaction with a teacher one needs to have in order to ascertain whether that nature is the real one or is just a conceptual position.

The interaction with a teacher is a process of refining one's perception through discarding all layers of conceptuality which might otherwise fool one into believing that what they've discovered is the true nature.

I cannot see how practitioners from other religions or religious sistems can refine their perceptions and experience without the help of soemone who knows directly what this primordial nature is .Since the teaching and the teachers who can teach such things are missing in other religions there is no chance that someone can discover and realize their nature.

[C T]

For some, the natural state manifests itself spontaneously.

For many, pointing out is required.

And pointing out can come from a wide variety of sources, experiences, and traditions.

Actually, i think the natural state is already there, and everyone can have a glimpse of it from time to time.

 

The introduction is there to dispel doubts, and that, given by a realized dzogchen yogi, is indeed very conclusive.

 

It does not have to 'come' from anywhere, its already present. When a person manage to rest in that presence, even for most (and me) if its just for a few seconds, then he or she is no different from a buddha, but that is the crux of the whole recognition bit... to be able to expand this period of resting, of making it spontaneous, and not so much the issue of who or what tradition or sect has the right power to give a genuine pointing out. This pointing-out is secondary; what is of prime help is to be able to rest in it without any doubts arising, without distraction, without a sense of, "wow, i made it finally, i am resting in the natural state, how realized i have become" sort of way.

 

Without the introduction or pointing out by the lama-yogi-dzogchen so and so, its hard to separate which is the genuine state and which is a fabricated one. For those who 'get it' the odd time, more than likely it wont even be seen as 'getting it' at all, it will be missed and its hard to say when the next incidental opportunity would pop up, and again, lost to doubt, delusion or distractive tendencies.

[RongzomFan]

So, we can clearly see that in Sanskrit the meaning is vidya, which means 'knowledge'.

 

Exactly.

 

But look at all those other definitions. Who says yours is right?

 

Its not my definition.

[RongzomFan]

You can recognize unfabricated presence, but that doesn't make you a Dzogchenpa.

 

That just makes you a neoAdvaita/Zen person.

[Anderson]

Actually, i think the natural state is already there, and everyone can have a glimpse of it from time to time.

 

The introduction is there to dispel doubts, and that, given by a realized dzogchen yogi, is indeed very conclusive.

 

It does not have to 'come' from anywhere, its already present. When a person manage to rest in that presence, even for most (and me) if its just for a few seconds, then he or she is no different from a buddha, but that is the crux of the whole recognition bit... to be able to expand this period of resting, of making it spontaneous, and not so much the issue of who or what tradition or sect has the right power to give a genuine pointing out. This pointing-out is secondary; what is of prime help is to be able to rest in it without any doubts arising, without distraction, without a sense of, "wow, i made it finally, i am resting in the natural state, how realized i have become" sort of way.

 

.

 

 

The introduction is not there to dispel doubts since that presupposes that one has engaged in discovery and recognition prior transmission which would mean that they were misguided and have misunderstood the fact that you can only discover your nature either through direct introduction or after with the help of various methods.

If after introduction there are doubts as to whether the nature was discovered or not one can start practising the various methods of rushan, longde ...etc...to dispel those doubts and have a close dialogue with one's teacher.

 

The pointing out is not secondary .Tell that to Garab Dorje.

Is of paramount importance and is the first thing one needs to do when deciding to follow the path of dzogchen.

[C T]

You can recognize unfabricated presence, but that doesn't make you a Dzogchenpa.

 

That just makes you a neoAdvaita/Zen person.

Are we discussing what makes a dzogchenpa?

[RongzomFan]

You do not have to be a Dzochenpo or have a transmission in order to discuss the teachings. Various Dzogchen teachers have said this, including CN Norbu and Alan Wallace. It is not the Spirit of Dzogchen, nor is it the Spirit of Buddhism.

 

That's complete shit.

 

Even in the youtube video, Allan Wallace says he has his teacher's permission to teach only samatha and vipassana openly.

[Jetsun]

Well, your opinion doesn't count.

What counts is what the tradition of dzogchen says.

And as a counterargument, yes , for many outside of dzogchen or from other religions the state can manifest spontaneously but they wouldn't recognize it and they would discount it as nothing special since they lack the proper instruction and explanation of how this nature is the base of all, being primordial purity and beyond everything but in the same time the source of everything.And lets not forget the interaction with a teacher one needs to have in order to ascertain whether that nature is the real one or is just a conceptual position.

The interaction with a teacher is a process of refining one's perception through discarding all layers of conceptuality which might otherwise fool one into believing that what they've discovered is the true nature.

I cannot see how practitioners from other religions or religious sistems can refine their perceptions and experience without the help of soemone who knows directly what this primordial nature is .Since the teaching and the teachers who can teach such things are missing in other religions there is no chance that someone can discover and realize their nature.

It doesn't have to be that complicated, it can be realized just by asking questions like "where is my mind", "what does everything arise in", then relaxing there. Even a layman with no religious or spiritual training could get there just by being continually radically honest, sure its probably a lot faster with a knowledgeable lama i'll give you that, but the natural state is not owned by some tradition or set of lamas.

[idiot_stimpy]

[RongzomFan]

Dzogchen is secret.

There is no way around that.

CNNR always says not to discuss dzogchen with those who do not have transmission.

 

Tibetan Ice just makes up his own facts. Like guru yoga being spirit channeling. Hes not even Buddhist.

[C T]

The introduction is not there to dispel doubts since that presupposes that one has engaged in discovery and recognition prior transmission which would mean that they were misguided and have misunderstood the fact that you can only discover your nature either through direct introduction or after with the help of various methods.

If after introduction there are doubts as to whether the nature was discovered or not one can start practising the various methods of rushan, longde ...etc...to dispel those doubts and have a close dialogue with one's teacher.

 

The pointing out is not secondary .Tell that to Garab Dorje.

Is of paramount importance and is the first thing one needs to do when deciding to follow the path of dzogchen.

If the pointing out is of paramount significance, there would be thousands upon thousands of enlightened beings floating around out there. There arent that many around, as far as i can see.

 

Many lamas emphasize the prelims to be done prior to introduction. Dispelling of doubts are meant for those who have been doing the prelims. Maybe where you are concerned, the prelims are put aside. I know there are some lamas who discount the prelims altogether.

[RongzomFan]

Further, Alwaysoff has never disclosed whether he has had a transmission,

 

I'm pretty sure I have said I have transmission.

[Anderson]

It doesn't have to be that complicated, it can be realized just by asking questions like "where is my mind", "what does everything arise in", then relaxing there. Even a layman with no religious or spiritual training could get there just by being continually radically honest, sure its probably a lot faster with a knowledgeable lama i'll give you that, but the natural state is not owned by some tradition or set of lamas.

you're missing the point.

resting like you suggest and in what you suggest is not rigpa.

[RongzomFan]

Its bullshit that you need initiation to discuss the concept of Buddhahood without meditation, your natural state is your natural state, it isn't owned by Dzogchen or anyone else, anyone could realise it at any time because it isn't something given to you it is something which is always present. Extremists like Alwayson like to turn it into something exclusive to try feel special and superior but the clue is in its name, it is your natural state, it is ubiquitous to everyone.

 

You can certainly recognize unfabricated presence like Zen people, but that doesn't make you a Dzogchenpa let alone qualified to speak about Dzogchen.

 

That's like saying Zen people are qualified to speak about Dzogchen.

Edited August 8, 2013 by alwayson

[Anderson]

If the pointing out is of paramount significance, there would be thousands upon thousands of enlightened beings floating around out there. There arent that many around, as far as i can see.

 

Many lamas emphasize the prelims to be done prior to introduction. Dispelling of doubts are meant for those who have been doing the prelims. Maybe where you are concerned, the prelims are put aside. I know there are some lamas who discount the prelims altogether.

i am afraid those lamas are teaching according to a late invention combined with lots of cultural biases.

Originally dzogchen was taught differently and that is how i myself follow dzogchen.

Pure a la Garab Dorje and as CNNR -one of the greatest masters alive- teaches it ,

 

You don't get enlightened by receiving pointing out instructions but being introduced is exttremely important according to dzogchen and is the first thing you have to have before entering the path.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Anderson

[Jetsun]

you're missing the point.

resting like you suggest and in what you suggest is not rigpa.

Depends on whether the question remains cerebral and in the conceptual or whether you recognize what it is poining to which cannot be conceptualized.

[RongzomFan]

Its bullshit that you need initiation to discuss the concept of Buddhahood without meditation, your natural state is your natural state, it isn't owned by Dzogchen or anyone else, anyone could realise it at any time because it isn't something given to you it is something which is always present. Extremists like Alwayson like to turn it into something exclusive to try feel special and superior but the clue is in its name, it is your natural state, it is ubiquitous to everyone.

 

I have no problem with people discussing recognizing unfabricated presence as this is a common element with many teachings.

[RongzomFan]

 

Is this Tsongkhapa?

 

He didn't even teach Dzogchen.

Edited August 8, 2013 by alwayson