Further discussion

[doc benway]

As is common knowledge, Vajrayana practitioners are not supposed to befriend "ordinary people."

 

"Sign that the demons that have entered us are that....we keep the company of ordinary people" - Dudjom Rinpoche

 

I see great wisdom in this now.

Then why are you here?

[RongzomFan]

Who the hell is Vajrahridaya?

 

 

Here is Dudjom Rinpoche, head of the Nyingma school:

 

 

A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom:

 

"Signs that the demons have entered us are that we find fault in the spiritual friend, our teacher; we see defects in Dharma practitioners in general; we keep the company of ordinary people; we have less diligence in the practice; we indulge in pleasure heedlessly, without any moral principles; and our devotion and respect for the Three Jewels fades."

 

"we should think: “I have entered the sublime Dharma and am undertaking the training of a Bodhisattva, so I must never be like ordinary people.”"

 

"Remind yourself of the defects of the pleasures of the senses, and avoid befriending ordinary people."

[Apech]

Then why are you here?

 

 

Steve ... we are not ordinary (maybe).

[Jetsun]

 

 

Nope, its just normative Nyingma view.

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived

that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that

never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject

that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in

which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires

purification. They have created division with respect to that

which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be

obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is

naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free

from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore,

they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate

reality as it is (rnal ma’i de kho na nyid)." - Wisdom Nectar, p30-31

 

He is talking about a view from the summit of the teachings, yet you are applying it as a blanket statement, which is the problem when you take the teaching or quote out of the context it was given.

[RongzomFan]

He is talking about a view from the summit of the teachings, yet you are applying it as a blanket statement, which is the problem when you take the teaching or quote out of the context it was given.

 

You can read the Big Red Book, where Dudjom Rinpoche details the flaws of the lower vehicles.

 

Every presentation of Dzogchen, even Bonpo, trashes everything else. Read Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings.

[doc benway]

Who the hell is Vajrahridaya?

 

 

Here is Dudjom Rinpoche, head of the Nyingma school:

 

 

A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom:

 

"Signs that the demons have entered us are that we find fault in the spiritual friend, our teacher; we see defects in Dharma practitioners in general; we keep the company of ordinary people; we have less diligence in the practice; we indulge in pleasure heedlessly, without any moral principles; and our devotion and respect for the Three Jewels fades."

 

"we should think: “I have entered the sublime Dharma and am undertaking the training of a Bodhisattva, so I must never be like ordinary people.”"

 

"Remind yourself of the defects of the pleasures of the senses, and avoid befriending ordinary people."

Alwayson,

You are behaving like the Christian who trolls the Bible for quotations that will reinforce his/her personal bias, such as homophobia or the support of slavery. And I acknowledge that we all do this to some degree but your message seems so consistently negative, elitist, exclusionary, demeaning, hurtful - not at all what I would expect from someone trying to live the Dharma. I think you would find quite a bit of camaraderie at the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

What would it be like to open yourself to the full message of the Dharma rather than simply use it as a weapon to cut down the blessings of other traditions and a security blanket to insulate you from reality?

 

Please continue to demonize me if you wish but then I'll repeat my question, why are you here?

[RongzomFan]

Alwayson,

You are behaving like the Christian who trolls the Bible for quotations that will reinforce his/her personal bias, such as homophobia or the support of slavery. And I acknowledge that we all do this to some degree but your message seems so consistently negative, elitist, exclusionary, demeaning, hurtful - not at all what I would expect from someone trying to live the Dharma. I think you would find quite a bit of camaraderie at the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

What would it be like to open yourself to the full message of the Dharma rather than simply use it as a weapon to cut down the blessings of other traditions and a security blanket to insulate you from reality?

 

Please continue to demonize me if you wish but then I'll repeat my question, why are you here?

 

I don't need anymore lecturing from you.

[Apech]

I don't need anymore lecturing from you.

 

 

I wonder if you might benefit from conversing more with others. A lot of the material you bring to TBs is excellent and many of books you quote I have studied and read (though usually in part) and I am convinced you are a serious student of your chosen lineage. I do not practice Dzogchen but Karma Kagyu (mahamudra oriented) practice but by reading across I can learn a lot. I recognise that many Lamas speak of higher vehicles and so on ... but in my experience they still support and uphold the basic hinayana and mahayana as well.

 

I would like to hear more of the reasons for your various conclusions than pithy quotes and I think perhaps you are antagonising others (Buddhist and non-Buddhist unnecessarily.

 

But thank you anyway for the scholarly level of information you bring to TBs.

[RongzomFan]

I recognise that many Lamas speak of higher vehicles and so on ... but in my experience they still support and uphold the basic hinayana and mahayana as well.

 

I also uphold Hinayana and Mahayana as well.

 

If you get the impression I don't, then that's your misunderstanding.

[Jetsun]

You can read the Big Red Book, where Dudjom Rinpoche details the flaws of the lower vehicles.

 

Every presentation of Dzogchen, even Bonpo, trashes everything else. Read Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings.

 

You don't get it. Obviously the view of the ultimate does not need the view of the contrived, but what the lower vehicles are trying to do is engage people where their minds are at in order to bring them to the ultimate view. They are an attempt to engage people where they are at.

 

Why do you think the Dalai Lama hardly ever teaches Dzogchen even though he is fully qualified and empowered to do so? he has taught Dzogchen on a few occasions and is fully aware of the teachings of Dudjom Rinpoche , but he mostly teaches things like the Kalachakra and the 8 verses of mind training and other things, he didn't suddenly give up all the other paths as valid methods for people to realize the view soon as he mastered Dzogchen, why do you think that is?

[Apech]

I also uphold Hinayana and Mahayana as well.

 

If you get the impression I don't, then that's your misunderstanding.

 

 

My understanding is based wholly on the way you communicate on here ... that is terse one liners quite often negative and with a slight sense of a put down ...like its my fault if I don't understand you ... while I would suggest it is your failure to communicate effectively your point of view which causes my misunderstanding.

[C T]

"Taking up the Vajrayana path is similar to a snake having crawled into a bamboo pole. There is no turnaround. So please consider carefully before entering."

 

Words of advice given to me by Dzogchen Rinpoche.

 

 

 

its impossible to fathom the degree of awareness of one who is 'hooked' by the Compassionate ones. Some days it could all be well, and other days its like a storm ceaselessly pounding against the eastern shore. From where does solace come? Sometimes from the most unlikely place we find glittering gems of immense value.

 

Look inside, look deep within, and find out where is the one who laments so. Is it you, or you, or you?

 

 

 

 

On so many occasions Alwayson has given me numerous reasons to tame my own mind. I am ever grateful! Cheerfully so, i must add.

[doc benway]

I don't need anymore lecturing from you.

 

Actually, I think you need quite a bit more lecturing, but it would be much better coming from someone whose opinion you respect, so I'll do my best to stop after this post.

 

I challenge you to do the following either as a thought experiment or in reality:

 

1. Think of someone, anyone, that you respect as a moral and ethical authority or guide - preferably someone living

2. Gather together every post you've submitted to the TaoBums (or any other forum) over the past year

3. Ask that your guru or guide read these posts and offer you their perspective

4. Open yourself to learning from the experience

 

I wish you peace and ease from your suffering.

Namaste

[RongzomFan]

Actually, I think you need quite a bit more lecturing, but it would be much better coming from someone whose opinion you respect, so I'll do my best to stop after this post.

 

I challenge you to do the following either as a thought experiment or in reality:

 

1. Think of someone, anyone, that you respect as a moral and ethical authority or guide - preferably someone living

2. Gather together every post you've submitted to the TaoBums (or any other forum) over the past year

3. Ask that your guru or guide read these posts and offer you their perspective

4. Open yourself to learning from the experience

 

I wish you peace and ease from your suffering.

Namaste

 

More lecturing from a non-Buddhist, who doesn't know the first thing about Buddhadharma.

[RongzomFan]

My understanding is based wholly on the way you communicate on here ... that is terse one liners quite often negative and with a slight sense of a put down ...like its my fault if I don't understand you ... while I would suggest it is your failure to communicate effectively your point of view which causes my misunderstanding.

 

Ok, so I am clearly saying it now.

 

I uphold Hinayana and Mahayana.

[3bob]

As far as I'm concerned those that make a twisted and cruel minded habit of insulting and harming people at TTB should be banned - simple as that. (regardless of using quotes from this or that sect or no sect)

[RongzomFan]

As far as I'm concerned those that make a twisted and cruel minded habit of insulting and harming people at TTB should be banned - simple as that. (regardless of using quotes from this or that sect or no sect)

 

I agree.

[3bob]

then you agree that you should be banned for carrying on in the way described, ok

[manitou]

As far as I'm concerned those that make a twisted and cruel minded habit of insulting and harming people at TTB should be banned - simple as that. (regardless of using quotes from this or that sect or no sect)

 

 

Or, we could look at it as a gauge for our own development. what a challenge it is, and to apply true love to the situation is the goal. When we can transcend ego, we can feel compassion for the one doing the challenging.

 

Alwayson - I'm not a Buddhist, don't know much about it really, other than what I've picked up here on the forum in the past years. I am merely a Seer that triangulates from all paths and the inner self. Could you please explain to me your avatar, and why it has a red circle with a slash in front of a Buddhist adept? Is this to render your opinion about a path that does not coincide with your thinking?

Edited August 15, 2013 by manitou

[doc benway]

More lecturing from a non-Buddhist, who doesn't know the first thing about Buddhadharma.

 

I assume you have no wish to take the challenge.

I'm saddened but not surprised.

 

Again - best wishes to you my friend.

I sincerely hope you find what you need to ease your suffering.

[Apech]

Ok, so I am clearly saying it now.

 

I uphold Hinayana and Mahayana.

 

Nevermind.

[RongzomFan]

I assume you have no wish to take the challenge.

 

I personally know lamas who travel to Tibet and other quite serious practitioners.

 

They would agree with most everything I have to say.

 

I'm actually quite mild compared to them.

 

Again, your comments betray your complete lack of knowledge.

[RongzomFan]

Nevermind.

 

As you know, I always defend Pure Land Buddhism against stefos.

[doc benway]

I personally know lamas who travel to Tibet and other quite serious practitioners.

 

They would agree with most everything I have to say.

 

I feel equally sorry for them and will include them in my tonglen practice.

Thank you

[rene]

I feel equally sorry for them and will include them in my tonglen practice.

Thank you

 

Does that mean the same thing as "I will pray for Jesus to come to you, heathen" ?