Further discussion

[rex]

Transmission may be permission to study but it can and will be revoked if one treats other people as you do.

 

Perhaps it already has...

 

Transmission is never revoked as the Three Jewels never abandons those who have taken refuge.

[idiot_stimpy]

Alwayson expresses himself upsets a lot of people BUT you have to remember that it is his right to express himself how he chooses ...

 

True and it is our right to use the ignore feature.

[C T]

i am afraid those lamas are teaching according to a late invention combined with lots of cultural biases.

Originally dzogchen was taught differently and that is how i myself follow dzogchen.

Pure a la Garab Dorje and as CNNR -one of the greatest masters alive- teaches it ,

 

You don't get enlightened by receiving pointing out instructions but being introduced is exttremely important according to dzogchen and is the first thing you have to have before entering the path.

I agree with the above to a certain extent. It really depends who the teacher is and what he or she feels is best for students.

 

I know Dzogchen Rinpoche personally, and he does not bestow any 'introduction' until he knows that the initiate has fully completed the Ngondro, with accumulations and all. The same can be said of Sogyal Rinpoche when i was with his sangha some time back. I also recall from Tulku Urgyen's writings where he emphasizes the prelims. He said the Ngondro is a complete practice in itself which can take one all the way, and that people should not belittle the preliminary teachings and practices. In fact, he said that he thinks its better to remain with the prelims because there are many so-called advanced Dzogchenpas out there who thinks they have made it (Rinpoche laughed having commented thus) just because they have completed the prelims and feel they are now ready to tackle the more advanced stages of Togal and what not.

 

For verification of what Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche thought was best for Vajrayana practitioners, read his work "Rainbow Painting".

[RongzomFan]

Gee, Alwaysoff, are you saying that Manjursri's writings do not represent true Buddhist teachings? And that is why one must avoid Tsongkhapa? Have you ostracised Manjursri now?

 

Well perhaps you should read "BuddhaHood Without Meditation", because in it, there is a chapter of when Dudjom Lingpa met Manjurshri. What could a whole chapter of something Manjurshri said to Dudjom Lingpa in a 'vision' be doing in a book about The Great Perfection?

 

page 117:

 

Are you saying that Tsongkhapa really met Manjusri?

 

You are free to believe that, but I don't.

[C T]

True and it is our right to use the ignore feature.

Yeah, its unfortunately very common/easy for people to ignore traits which they do not like, or people or situations which displeases them. Its much harder to sit with the discomfort of being in the presence of someone/something seen as difficult and tame one's reactive tendencies towards what has been perceived to be difficult or unpleasant.

 

There are some points which i dont happen to agree with Alwayson on, but there are also many 'rights' to be gleaned from what he says here and elsewhere on the forum.

 

Never used the ignore function before. Never felt the need to.

[RongzomFan]

There are some points which i dont happen to agree with Alwayson on

 

what points are those

[idiot_stimpy]

Never used the ignore function before. Never felt the need to.

 

That is your choice.

[C T]

what points are those

thats between the two of us to thrash out if the need arises over time.

[RongzomFan]

Please feel free to dismiss my opinions, as Anderson has.

 

The reason why Anderson dismisses your opinions is because you don't even know rigpa means knowledge.

[doc benway]

The reason why Anderson dismisses your opinions is because you don't even know rigpa means knowledge.

 

I would like to offer you my sincere apology for lecturing you and making patronizing statements.

I know very little about Dzogchen and intend to continue to practice and study.

I wish you well.

Namaste.

[manitou]

I would like to offer you my sincere apology for lecturing you and making patronizing statements.

I know very little about Dzogchen and intend to continue to practice and study.

I wish you well.

Namaste.

 

I think this is the most beautiful post on this thread. The ability to transcend one's own ego is a sign of a great one.

 

As to rigpa, please note the following quote:

 

“Rigpa is a Tibetan word, which in general means ‘intelligence’ or ‘awareness’. In Dzogchen, however, the highest teachings in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet, rigpa has a deeper connotation, ‘the innermost nature of the mind’. The whole of the teaching of Buddha is directed towards realizing this, our ultimate nature, the state of omniscience or enlightenment – a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself."

 

Sogyal Rinpoche

 

 

Some of us have been making this point from the beginning.....'a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself.' Structure has been transcended.

Edited August 9, 2013 by manitou

[RongzomFan]

Why do I have the feeling you ignore "the state of omniscience" part?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Are you saying that Tsongkhapa really met Manjusri?

 

You are free to believe that, but I don't.

 

Well then, are you saying that Tsongkhapa, intelligent, accomplished Buddhist teacher, actually unknowingly channeled demons?

[RongzomFan]

Well then, are you saying that Tsongkhapa, intelligent, accomplished Buddhist teacher, actually unknowingly channeled demons?

 

There are 3 different options.

 

1. Manjushri

2. Demons

3. Tsongkhapa's secret biography was a forgery, since it conveniently came out when Khedrup needed to defend Tsongkhapa.

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA107&dq=Tibet:+A+History+khedrup+secret+biography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lFkEUt71C5Xl4AORsIHIAw&ved=0CD8QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%3A%20A%20History%20khedrup%20secret%20biography&f=false

 

 

I go with #3.

Edited August 9, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

The reason why Anderson dismisses your opinions is because you don't even know rigpa means knowledge.

 

Neither do you. Alwaysoff, you don't even know what rigpa means. (maybe if I repeat it, it will sink in.. )

 

Here, I will repeat it for you:

 

Rigpa: (the recognition of) awareness, whereupon the ground of being become evident, with the true nature of mind present as the dynamic energy of that awareness; its "ground aspect" is awareness of the fundamental nature of the ground of being; its "path aspect" is the ongoing experience of unsullied, lucid awareness

 

awareness (CS);

 

cognitive excitation, wholeness in ecstatic intensity, cognitively intensificatory (FRC);

 

immediate awareness, state of contemplation (GL);

 

pure awareness (KB, NJ, PC);

 

pure cognitiveness, non-representationaly cognitive (KB);

 

innate wisdom or wakefulness, pure presence, primordial being (NGP);

 

awareness (NS, WPT);

 

a flash of awareness, flash on knowing that gives awareness its (illumining) quality (PE).

 

 

For a reference to the sources of each definition, see this link:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26115-further-discussion/?p=463151

[Tibetan_Ice]

There are 3 different options.

 

1. Manjushri

2. Demons

3. Tsongkhapa's secret biography was a forgery, since it conveniently came out when Khedrup needed to defend Tsongkhapa.

http://books.google.com/books?id=La1CWinaDR4C&pg=PA107&dq=Tibet:+A+History+khedrup+secret+biography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lFkEUt71C5Xl4AORsIHIAw&ved=0CD8QuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=Tibet%3A%20A%20History%20khedrup%20secret%20biography&f=false

 

 

I go with #3.

 

Then why do you have #1 in your signature?

[RongzomFan]

Then why do you have #1 in your signature?

 

 

Did you miss "he is reported to have had"?

[RongzomFan]

Neither do you. Alwaysoff, you don't even know what rigpa means. (maybe if I repeat it, it will sink in.. )

 

Here, I will repeat it for you:

 

Rigpa: (the recognition of) awareness, whereupon the ground of being become evident, with the true nature of mind present as the dynamic energy of that awareness; its "ground aspect" is awareness of the fundamental nature of the ground of being; its "path aspect" is the ongoing experience of unsullied, lucid awareness

 

awareness (CS);

 

cognitive excitation, wholeness in ecstatic intensity, cognitively intensificatory (FRC);

 

immediate awareness, state of contemplation (GL);

 

pure awareness (KB, NJ, PC);

 

pure cognitiveness, non-representationaly cognitive (KB);

 

innate wisdom or wakefulness, pure presence, primordial being (NGP);

 

awareness (NS, WPT);

 

a flash of awareness, flash on knowing that gives awareness its (illumining) quality (PE).

 

 

For a reference to the sources of each definition, see this link:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26115-further-discussion/?p=463151

 

Your own book backtranslates rigpa as vidya, which means knowledge.

 

Do I really have to post all the books that say rigpa=knowledge?

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=9qjS6SXMp7cC&pg=PA148&lpg=PA148&dq=rigpa+knowledge&source=bl&ots=2u-Qx7o6IR&sig=tKvkDZCL-Z6_KZg-9DsY4wiu4wQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yF4EUpC4ObS44AOvjIGoBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=rigpa%20knowledge&f=false

[RongzomFan]

This is one of those cases where people who have access to restricted texts see the latest way rigpa is being translated.

 

The hot thing now is to backtranslate rigpa to vidya and leave it at that.

[manitou]

One of the Bums, maybe vMarco, spells knowledge with a g, not a k when talking about this type of knowledge. To me, this refers to the state of gnosis, wherein the subject 'gnows' rather than 'knows'. The Gnostics understood that there are two types. We all have knowledge to some extent. Some of us are highly educated, others of us are not - personally, I barely made it through the 12th grade. Knowledge is attained from books and transmissions from other sources, Gnowledge is what is discovered inside if the knowledge or transmission lands on the fertile soil within us because we have prepared the soil, removed the weeds and rocks; the seed that was transmitted will grow.

 

The biggest weed of all is ego. When a loving and serious Islamist talks about True Jihad, they are talking about this: Doing battle with and overcoming the flames of Ego. When don Juan had Carlos do a life recapitulation, it was for the purpose of developing humility and overcoming ego. when an AA sponsor has his recovering charge do a personal inventory, he tells him to be ruthless in doing so, to make no excuses for ones' self, and to go back through one's life and make amends to anyone they have harmed. This is a humiliating experience but does ultimately give the gift of overcoming ego (not to say it's not still there to some degree, but much lesser than before; he becomes capable of sidestepping it and making his amend,as Steve did above, which makes it an act of grace). when it is said that the Sage has his treasures as described previously, it is only because he has learned to 'never be the first', or to never stand on your tiptoes, trying to show that we are more than we are in competition with other human beings, and it is because he has this capacity (overcoming ego) that the Sage has developed the pure consciousness, or Love of all. The Christians remain stuck in their box because their idea of Christ as 'the only one through which one can find redemption' is a barrier to their own transmission from something higher, and I don't recall there being a device in place within the structure of Christianity for ego removal. Nevertheless, some can find it on their own and it radiates through their faces, their actions, their transmission of love to others.

 

The Nazarene was a christ consciousness; he taught his apostles to Know Thyself. (Gnow thyself). The Dalai Lama is a Christ consciousness who recognizes that we are temporarily in this learning-ground state of maya. The 33rd degree of the Scottish Rites of Freemasonry is one who has attained the Christ consciousness, as exemplified by Hiram Abiff, the original nature within us all.

 

And what all those who Gnow have in common is that they realize their original nature is that they ARE God (but without ego, otherwise we'd be in serious trouble). We are the Creator, the Manifester, the Thinker (picture Rodin's statue). The picture above that we discussed of the adept connecting the inner with the outer (or the left brain to the right brain) may not be all that much, as someone earlier said. But the Artist who painted the scene clearly understood what it meant to return to our Original self. That we ourselves are It and as such have the paintbrush in our own hand and can create the life and the conditions we want - but not from a selfish perspective; from a perspective of us All being the creator and therefore all deserving of the same Love, whomever we are.

 

We manifest from the inside to the outside, not the other way around. The circumstances we currently see in this troubled world are as a result of those with intense Ego needing more money, more land, more power, more recognition. There is an equally balanced cultivated side consisting of those of us who do not make the news because acts of love and kindness aren't the sort of things that 'sells papers' (certainly an aged metaphor in this day and age).

 

Rigpa, attaining the gnowledge of who we Actually Are, is not a magic pill that can be taken without first preparing the soil. The pill can be taken, but it won't grow. There is a bit of effort involved.

 

Steve motivated me. My apologies for getting a bit caught up in my own ego on this thread and I extend Love to anyone reading this. We Are One.

Edited August 9, 2013 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Yea! Manitou is alive and well!

 

I can't talk in this thread though, someone might think I have an interest in Buddhism.

[C T]

Gnowledge is what is discovered inside if the knowledge or transmission lands on the fertile soil within us because we have prepared the soil, removed the weeds and rocks; the seed that was transmitted will grow.

What wonderful timing!

 

Just this morning i was reading a note a friend sent on, and it was basically about Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche talking about how to invoke Drala (magic) in one's life, and he told of how the American Indians in the Southwest have mastered this, and they were able to grow vegetables in the desert. Its an impossibility to anyone else who attempts to cultivate there because the environment is totally barren and infertile, but the natives knew about Drala, and sacredness, and because of that, they could invoke the magic of the land, to borrow from it respectfully, and because of this attitude of gratitude and deep connection, they are able to invoke magic and allow it to form into something tangible!

 

Rinpoche says, "The attitude of sacredness towards your environment will bring Drala. You may live in a dirt hut with no floor and only one window, but if you regard that space as sacred, if you care for it with your heart and your mind, then it will be a palace."

 

I guess cultivating one's inner landscape would be an identical exercise.

 

 

Thank you for being among us, Manitou!

[Apech]

...

 

Rinpoche says, "The attitude of sacredness towards your environment will bring Drala. You may live in a dirt hut with no floor and only one window, but if you regard that space as sacred, if you care for it with your heart and your mind, then it will be a palace."

 

I guess cultivating one's inner landscape would be an identical exercise.

 

 

Thank you for being among us, Manitou!

 

E ma ho! Dewachen!

[manitou]

And thank you, my darling CT and Marbles, for being among us as well. Apech, what do those words mean? My guess is that they are something wonderful....the only thing I know to say in response is whashte.....

 

CT, your metaphor is similar to the Findhorn community in the highlands of Scotland who were able to grow humongous fruits and vegetables in inhospitable soil because of their reverence for their land.

Edited August 9, 2013 by manitou

[Apech]

And thank you, my darling CT and Marbles, for being among us as well. Apech, what do those words mean? My guess is that they are something wonderful....the only thing I know to say in response is whashte.....

 

CT, your metaphor is similar to the Findhorn community in the highlands of Scotland who were able to grow humongous fruits and vegetables in inhospitable soil because of their reverence for their land.

 

E ma ho! is an expression of joy and wonder and Dewachen (perfect bliss) is the Pure Land of the Buddha Amitabha.