Further discussion

[Apech]

Our true nature is the same, regardless of the conceptual framework that obscures it.

The Daoist, Christian, Dzogchenpa, and new age hippie are of one taste.

All are a dance (thanks Protector) of emptiness and clarity, just as thoughts and the matrix from/within which they arise are of one taste.

 

Steve,

 

I think you have encapsulated very clearly the theme of this thread ... which in itself is a great thing and yet causes some problems. Some of the terms you use 'emptiness and clarity' and 'one taste' are clearly Buddhist. I think some Taoists may talk about emptiness but this is probably where they have been influenced by Buddhism in China. I can't think of any instance in which Jesus talks about emptiness (but will happily stand to be corrected). I think there is a definite link/comparison to be made between the ineffability of the Tao (it cannot be spoken) and the impossibility of expressing directly the dharmakaya ... again where is the Christian 'version'.

 

In non-dual Buddhism's highest teachings the base, path and fruit are the 'same'. The view which supports the path is the view of the emptiness of all phenomena. And yet Christianity talks about worshiping a supreme being. Maybe the end is the same ... but the path is and must be different surely. So to say all paths are one is potentially very confusing. Better to say perhaps all paths have some value if properly followed.

[Apech]

 

watch around 12 - 14 minutes in where he talks about plurality ....

[doc benway]

Steve,

 

I think you have encapsulated very clearly the theme of this thread ... which in itself is a great thing and yet causes some problems. Some of the terms you use 'emptiness and clarity' and 'one taste' are clearly Buddhist. I think some Taoists may talk about emptiness but this is probably where they have been influenced by Buddhism in China. I can't think of any instance in which Jesus talks about emptiness (but will happily stand to be corrected). I think there is a definite link/comparison to be made between the ineffability of the Tao (it cannot be spoken) and the impossibility of expressing directly the dharmakaya ... again where is the Christian 'version'.

 

In non-dual Buddhism's highest teachings the base, path and fruit are the 'same'. The view which supports the path is the view of the emptiness of all phenomena. And yet Christianity talks about worshiping a supreme being. Maybe the end is the same ... but the path is and must be different surely. So to say all paths are one is potentially very confusing. Better to say perhaps all paths have some value if properly followed.

 

I didn't say that all paths are one, did I?

 

And yet, in truth they are. They are all simply manifestations of [insert conceptual term here].

 

I also think that the underlying path of Christianity, the one that the mystics walk, is not to worship a supreme being, but rather to find the supreme [state of] being within... (and without)

[Jetsun]

Steve,

 

I think you have encapsulated very clearly the theme of this thread ... which in itself is a great thing and yet causes some problems. Some of the terms you use 'emptiness and clarity' and 'one taste' are clearly Buddhist. I think some Taoists may talk about emptiness but this is probably where they have been influenced by Buddhism in China. I can't think of any instance in which Jesus talks about emptiness (but will happily stand to be corrected). I think there is a definite link/comparison to be made between the ineffability of the Tao (it cannot be spoken) and the impossibility of expressing directly the dharmakaya ... again where is the Christian 'version'.

 

In non-dual Buddhism's highest teachings the base, path and fruit are the 'same'. The view which supports the path is the view of the emptiness of all phenomena. And yet Christianity talks about worshiping a supreme being. Maybe the end is the same ... but the path is and must be different surely. So to say all paths are one is potentially very confusing. Better to say perhaps all paths have some value if properly followed.

 

"At birth you were One, then you made two.

What will you do"

 

"When you see He who's unborn from a womb,

prostrate and worship, for He's your father"

 

"I'll show you what no eye has seen,no ear has heard,

no hand has touched, and what has not yet risen in men's hearts"

 

"Make the two into One

and the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner,

the above as below, the male and female into a single One."

 

"My soul was afflicted for mankind,

for they are blind at heart and do not see.

Empty they entered this world, empty they will leave!"

 

- The Gospel of Thomas

 

I think Jesus here is talking about non-duality and the unborn awareness, the awareness you had before you were born which the Zen Koan asks you to find. The Buddhist teachings are usually a lot clearer yet the Christian ones have a poetic quality, I heard one Buddhist teacher say that the most poetic and moving poem on emptiness he ever read was The Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross. The genuine Christian path is hard to find but it is there if you look, for example someone like St Theresa of Avilla mapped out the path of moving upwards through the chakras to union, yet she uses Christian terminology and language of her time and talks about the seven mansions rather than chakras.

[RongzomFan]

It sounds more like sex

 

 

"Make the two into One

and the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner,

the above as below, the male and female into a single One."

[rene]

 

 

I didn't say that all paths are one, did I?

 

And yet, in truth they are. They are all simply manifestations of [insert conceptual term here].

 

For me, they are wonderfully different paths that have the potential of helping one to a place of peace, however they perceive it to be. When Buddhists and Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Daoists and even NewAgers - are all within their own places of peace - maybe that is where the destinations converge and the differentiations and definitions fall away.

 

 

 

I also think that the underlying path of Christianity, the one that the mystics walk, is not to worship a supreme being, but rather to find the supreme [state of] being within... (and without)

 

Like you, I enjoy seeing the similarities between paths!

 

I always take care, though, to not read into something that might not be there (just because I might prefer it to be LOL) ; and I can find no reason to not celebrate the differences and the diversities between us all. Something for everyone!

 

warm regards

[C T]

You are supposed to be stuck. Dudjom Rinpoche says "Don't toss away a gem to search for a trinket. Since we have the extreme good fortunate to have met with such profound instructions, the heart blood of the dakinis, be inspired."

 

And where do you get the notion that all paths lead to the same place?

 

There is a difference between Bodhisattvas, pratyekabuddhas and arhats.

 

There are 6 different lokas that people get reborn in samsara.

 

etc. etc.

The Buddha never encouraged any absolutes. Rather, he encouraged every listener to his Dharma to find out if what they are working with will eradicate sorrow and suffering. If someone's practice can lead them to such a state, then we must, as decent, gentle, non-aggressive men and women, celebrate the emancipative potential of that person's (or persons') path.

 

Since i am not a buddha, i do not possess the power to determine if what another practices is actual buddhadharma, or not. Merely observing, looking on from the outside, we cannot (unless we are a fully enlightened buddha) see all the possibilities and potential which another's practice could yield. It may lead them further, and i would certainly hope it will, until they finally gain liberation, and i do sincerely wish this upon others. Having generated this wish, how could i then spout the arrogance of telling someone that they are somehow lacking with regards to their sincere wish to want to be free from unhappiness and experience a higher level of peace and joy in his or her life?

 

Sometimes, we need to exemplify skillful means, which forms the basis of how fledgling buddhas should always try to employ in their words and deeds. Its very easy to tear apart another's path, thats a piece of cake. Maintaining an air of superiority is also very easy. Just take a long, good look at some buddhist sanghas... plenty of 'noble sons and daughters' floating around the place puffily, as if they and they alone know which is the only Way out of samsara. Such feigned attitudes, unfortunately, will only drive people further away from hearing and considering the Buddha's teachings.

 

Dzogchenpas should be able to set the best example, seeing they all think theirs is the best way.

 

In his book The Sacred Path of the Warrior, Trungpa Rinpoche said, "The process of freeing yourself from arrogance and cutting off your habitual tendencies is a very drastic measure, but it is necessary in order to help others in this world."

 

May all be free from the chains of iron and gold.

[RongzomFan]

The Buddha never encouraged any absolutes.

 

HIs teachings are pretty unique and precise. Starting with the Four Noble Truths.

[rene]

The Buddha never encouraged any absolutes. ...

.

 

HIs teachings are pretty unique and precise. Starting with the Four Noble Truths.

 

Hmmm... Can I ask a quick question? I know very little about Buddhism...

 

Just like what Christianity did to the words of Jesus, and like what Taoism did to the words of LaoTzu, did Buddhism do the same kind of thing to the words of Buddha?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Edit: to make the question more clear.

Edited August 12, 2013 by rene

[RongzomFan]

.did Buddhism do the same kind of thing with the words of Buddha?

 

Its a nonissue for me.

 

I follow the teachings of the tertons and Mahasiddhas, not Shakyamuni Buddha.

[rene]

Its a nonissue for me.

 

I follow the teachings of the tertons and Mahasiddhas, not Shakyamuni Buddha.

 

Oh. Okay. Thanks!

[doc benway]

I always take care, though, to not read into something that might not be there (just because I might prefer it to be LOL) ; and I can find no reason to not celebrate the differences and the diversities between us all. Something for everyone!

 

Excellent cautionary reminder Rene, thanks for pointing that out.

The point I made about Christianity comes from one of my favorite teachers, Anthony Demello.

He was a Jesuit - I believe it is part of their practices but I'm no expert.

I also celebrate the differences in the paths and diversities.

And celebrate the underlying wholeness as well.

[rene]

Excellent cautionary reminder Rene, thanks for pointing that out.

 

I only could because I've done it so many many times before. Even now I catch my self doing it... but it's always relating something back to ideas described in the TTC.

[manitou]

I also think that the underlying path of Christianity, the one that the mystics walk, is not to worship a supreme being, but rather to find the supreme [state of] being within... (and without)

 

This is exactly what the Secret gospel of James is about in the Nag Hammadi.

 

Our ego's are a trip, are they not? We all think we have the answer. I think the only path that is wrong is the one that says all other paths are wrong.

Edited August 13, 2013 by manitou

[doc benway]

This is exactly what the Secret gospel of James is about in the Nag Hammadi.

 

Our ego's are a trip, are they not? We all think we have the answer. I think the only path that is wrong is the one that says all other paths are wrong.

I recently posted a quotation in another thread by Nagarjuna that reinforces your opinion:

 

The victorious ones say that emptiness

Undermines all dogmatic views,

Those who take a dogmatic view of emptiness

Are said to be incurable.

[RongzomFan]

This is exactly what the Secret gospel of James is about in the Nag Hammadi.

 

Our ego's are a trip, are they not? We all think we have the answer. I think the only path that is wrong is the one that says all other paths are wrong.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche (the head of the Nyingma school, supreme terton, rainbow body etc.) says that Buddhadharma is the only way to liberation.

 

This is just 1 statement of many similar ones in A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom:

 

"Do not forsake the Three Jewels for any reason, however important, whether to save your own life, for a kingdom, or for a reward."

 

Not only that, within Buddhadharma, Dudjom Rinpoche states:

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived

that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that

never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject

that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in

which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires

purification. They have created division with respect to that

which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be

obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is

naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free

from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore,

they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate

reality as it is (rnal ma’i de kho na nyid)." - Wisdom Nectar, p30-31

 

 

Dudjom Rinpoche even trashes the mind class and space class of atiyoga itself, by citing the Supreme Array of Ati (a ti bkod pa chen po):

 

"O Vajrapani!

If the Pith Instruction Class is not established,

There will be those who cling to deliberate examination [Mind

Class],

And in particular, those who will believe in nothing at all [Vast

Expanse Class].

Therefore, this definitive secret essence [Pith Instruction Class]—

Like a butter lamp amid darkness,

Like an elephant among oxen,

Like a lion among wild animals,

Or like a horseman among those on foot—

Is superior to them all." - Wisdom Nectar, p31

 

 

So at the minimum, we can clearly see that it is the Buddhist norm to put paths in a hierarchical order.

Edited August 13, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

I recently posted a quotation in another thread by Nagarjuna that reinforces your opinion:

 

The victorious ones say that emptiness

Undermines all dogmatic views,

Those who take a dogmatic view of emptiness

Are said to be incurable.

 

Emptiness is freedom from the views of existence and nonexistence.

 

"Nagarjuna taught , "bereft of beginning, middle, and end," meaning that the world is free from creation, duration, and destruction."

-Candrakirti

 

"Against someone who has no thesis of “existence,

nonexistence, or [both] existence and nonexistence,” it is not possible to

level a charge, even if [this is tried] for a long time."

-Aryadeva

[manitou]

Dudjom Rinpoche (the head of the Nyingma school, supreme terton, rainbow body etc.) says that Buddhadharma is the only way to liberation.

 

"Do not forsake the Three Jewels for any reason, however important, whether to save your own life, for a kingdom, or for a reward."

 

Not only that, within Buddhadharma, he states:

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived

that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that

never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject

that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in

which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires

purification. They have created division with respect to that

which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be

obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is

naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free

from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore,

they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate

reality as it is (rnal ma’i de kho na nyid)." - Wisdom Nectar, p30-31

 

 

Dudjom Rinpoche even trashes the mind class and space class of atiyoga, by citing the Supreme Array of Ati (a ti bkod pa chen po):

 

"O Vajrapani!

If the Pith Instruction Class is not established,

There will be those who cling to deliberate examination [Mind

Class],

And in particular, those who will believe in nothing at all [Vast

Expanse Class].

Therefore, this definitive secret essence [Pith Instruction Class]—

Like a butter lamp amid darkness,

Like an elephant among oxen,

Like a lion among wild animals,

Or like a horseman among those on foot—

Is superior to them all." - Wisdom Nectar, p31

 

 

So at the minimum, we can clearly see that is the Buddhist norm to put paths in a hierarchical order.

 

 

It appears that you are playing with a stacked deck. To continually quote only the framework of Buddhism as your authority doesn't cut the mustard. The unenlightened Christians here in the Midwest (I seem to have landed right in the middle of the bible belt pocket when we moved here 5 years ago) will continually quote the bible to prove their point, their point being "only through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior can you reach salvation". What makes your structure any better than that of the Islamist, the Christian, the shamanic path? They all are sure they have the answer too.

 

My personal experience (which is the only lens I can see through) is that by understanding and transcending the structure of any of the religious paths, one can see the communal overlay of the essence of Love, Forgiveness, developing a heart of kindness and mercy, and the consciousness that We are the Creator. This overlay will bring us closer to enlightenment than tightly grasping onto any of the cages.

 

I'm pretty sure that a dream I had last night directly relates to this lengthy discussion we've been having on this thread. I dreamt that there were divers diving down into the water attaching explosives to certain things under the water and blowing them up. Obviously the water is symbolic for the subconscious and our own personal dives down into it to remove that which needs to be removed for clarity. After several explosions, there was one huge fireball of an explosion that went up into the sky. We (I had the impression that it was all of us Bums) were all sitting together in this restaurant across the street from the lake and we were all watching the fireball go up. The funny thing is that there was a path leading from the lake to the restaurant, ending at the restaurant. The path was paved by strips of duct tape, of all things. If you think of what duct tape does, it patches things together, binds that which needs binding. Is this not symbolic of separate paths finding the point of unity, the restaurant in which we all sat?

 

I'm coming to the understanding that our dreams are the face of our Original Nature giving us clues as to what needs to be done for total liberation.

 

Love you, Alwayson. You have been a mighty catalyst for a fabulous discussion. This thread is no accident, despite the fact that it started in The Pit as a conversation between two people about Buddahood Without Meditation and dzogchen. We just wanted to avoid the occasional drive-by shooting, and yet it is the drive-by's that have made this a tremendously lively and informative thread.

Edited August 13, 2013 by manitou

[3bob]

Manitou, A fine post and I think the part about "drive by shootings", (postings) is a good analogy

[manitou]

Thank you, RainbowVein - hope you are doing fine as well. I loved meeting you in person a couple years back - hard to forget your kindness and radiance.

 

And thank you, 3Bob. Best wishes.

Edited August 13, 2013 by manitou

[manitou]

Going back a bit on this thread, I did find the picture of an enlightened one hovering above the path with the sun for a face - it was in A Separate Reality (one of the several covers that were used for this book). I can't figure out how to copy and paste this cover off Amazon, perhaps their structure won't let me. But if anyone is interested, check it out. If anyone actually knows how to copy and paste this picture, I'd be much obliged. What a computer dinosaur I am becoming. I guess I need a 10 year old in my life.

[Apech]

 

right click save image as

[RongzomFan]

What makes your structure any better than that of the Islamist, the Christian, the shamanic path? They all are sure they have the answer too.

 

Jesus had only a physical body, even after resurrection.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche's legs would often be disappearing.

 

He had the ability to go full light body if he wanted.

Edited August 13, 2013 by alwayson

[Apech]

Jesus had only a physical body, even after resurrection.

really? are you sure?

Dudjom Rinpoche's legs would often be disappearing.

 

is this a good thing?

He had the ability to go full light body if he wanted.

 

I think your reasons are little odd to be honest.

[manitou]

Apech, thank you! Do I owe you anything for the instructional?