Different types of Yoga?

[Antares]

Hatha Yoga in the Nath Sampradaya

 

 

Namaste!

 

I've been visiting various Nathas for several months in India, and never saw that they perform asanas and pranayamas. But many smoke ganja. Can anybody explain to me why in the Natha tradition (known as Hatha Yoga Tradition), almost none does asanas, compared to many ashrams in Rishikesh, or Mysore, etc.?

 

 

Namaste Sadhak ji.

 

I think, that this possibility is created for a following reason, when yoga has become widespread and appeared in the West, it became quite independent Western tradition. Therefore, some elements of the Tradition gradually disappeared in the Western society and some the contrary began to develop and acquire hypertrophied form. Moreover, the word "tradition" often came to be applied to different schools, styles, but not to the path of yoga (in the form of life, etc.), so gradually a lot of confusions were created. This was followed by a backward wave from the West to India, especially to the major metropolitan areas and tourist places, where new yoga also gained popularity among tourists looking for gymnastics, not for sadhana, though these things are somewhat different. In connection with such processes, yoga (according to understanding of sadhus) and yoga for people with superficial interests, formed in two different worlds. Many people have become more willing to believe that Hatha Yoga is not Yoga of the Sun and the Moon, but only "yoga of effort," and there appeared even references that the concept of the Sun and the Moon not given in Sanskrit dictionaries. However, many of Nathas concepts represented by a symbolic language (sandhya-bhasha). For example, when talking about the Ganges, the Yamuna in the human body, or the oceans, stars, etc. this may be metaphorical. Dictionaries do not always take this into account in relation to any specific mystical directions, and contain the most usual and popular meanings. I assume, the main thing here is not to make hasty conclusions about what Nathas practice and what not. First of all, you sould learn as much as possible what views these yogis have and what their way is.

http://forum.nathas.org/index.php/topic,180.msg360.html#new

[adept]

We must remember that Yoga is NOT asanas that we see in modern classes, even though the body needs to be kept fit and healthy, well into our senior years.

Yoga = union with the Divine.

It is a complete science from time immemorial.

Here is an excellent article concerning this very point :

 

http://www.swamij.com/traditional-yoga.htm

[Taomeow]

I consider almost every yoga known in the west to be just good calisthenics. Real yoga is far beyond just asanas. And latter is just what western yogis do mainly. Not sure if it even promotes health.

If you want real yoga you have to go to india or Nepal and search for authentic sampradaya

 

I think you should watch Kumare, a documentary recently discussed here. It starts out with an Indian guy who grew up in a family of authentic Hindu practitioners in the US going to India to look for the real masters...

[Taomeow]

We must remember that Yoga is NOT asanas that we see in modern classes, even though the body needs to be kept fit and healthy, well into our senior years.

 

 

Actually, Rāja yoga is a discipline of the mind. Traditionally, because the mind-body is seen as a unity, the practice starts with honing and "taming" the body by the outer, preliminary five limbs of this eightfold yoga, primarily by hatha yoga. The understanding being that a good level of overall physical and psychological health must be attained before pursuing yoga's deeper, inner aspects. So Westerners who start out with asanas are not doing anything wrong or non-traditional. It's just that most don't take it farther than that.

 

I practice some yoga without any other goal than to keep flexible. Minding one's flexibility is a good start for anything you might want to undertake, and what I want to undertake has nothing to do with a deep immersion in yoga. But for someone whose goal is indeed deep immersion, external practices are still the right place to start.

[Mal]

I note a word repeated often above and that is PRACTICE.

Yes asana are just one of the 8 limbs

But I like the quote that yoga is

"99% practice and 1% theory" - Sri K. Pattabhi Jois

[Antares]

I note a word repeated often above and that is PRACTICE.

Yes asana are just one of the 8 limbs

But I like the quote that yoga is

"99% practice and 1% theory" - Sri K. Pattabhi Jois

 

Is Ashtanga Yoga spiritual? Does the practice make person spiritual just by doing asanas and pranayamas?

I would agree that it would cleanse mental and physical body to some degree but not sure it would make person spiritual without considering other aspects of yoga. People have loads of samskaras inherited from many previous lives. OK it might depends on many personal factors as one's personal karma, readiness to put everything to one goal, good yoga teacher and steady practice. But the fact we must consider here that western yoga in not really authentic yoga and it is mostly like calisthenics. Would this yoga even being practiced many hours a day make somebody spiritual? Was P. Jois mentioned above really spiritual? Any evidence of it? Was not his yoga distorted in the West? Did he reveal everything to his students and do they teach all this correctly?

 

I am doing yoga at the moment but use only some elements from there. But I do accent on other practice. I think we can use different tools on the path but do the accent on the major method. What is good in yoga there are many free or almost free and easy accessible practices which can be very handy to use.

I, personally, do some surya namaskar as warm up and basic pranayamas and I introduced yin yoga to my practice. It seems to be very beneficial type of yoga deriving from chinese dao yin with some elements of indian yoga. I personally looking for more flexibility and calming the mind for the meditation. Also I ordered Paulie Zink's dao yin DVD's. Looks like he reveals some interesting aspects there.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Eugene

[dwai]

 

Is Ashtanga Yoga spiritual? Does the practice make person spiritual just by doing asanas and pranayamas?

I would agree that it would cleanse mental and physical body to some degree but not sure it would make person spiritual without considering other aspects of yoga. People have loads of samskaras inherited from many previous lives. OK it might depends on many personal factors as one's personal karma, readiness to put everything to one goal, good yoga teacher and steady practice. But the fact we must consider here that western yoga in not really authentic yoga and it is mostly like calisthenics. Would this yoga even being practiced many hours a day make somebody spiritual? Was P. Jois mentioned above really spiritual? Any evidence of it? Was not his yoga distorted in the West? Did he reveal everything to his students and do they teach all this correctly?

 

I am doing yoga at the moment but use only some elements from there. But I do accent on other practice. I think we can use different tools on the path but do the accent on the major method. What is good in yoga there are many free or almost free and easy accessible practices which can be very handy to use.

I, personally, do some surya namaskar as warm up and basic pranayamas and I introduced yin yoga to my practice. It seems to be very beneficial type of yoga deriving from chinese dao yin with some elements of indian yoga. I personally looking for more flexibility and calming the mind for the meditation. Also I ordered Paulie Zink's dao yin DVD's. Looks like he reveals some interesting aspects there.

 

Asana practice helps prepare for cessation of mental modifications (towards inner silence).

 

Ashtanga yoga is referring to raja yoga - 8 limbs (ashtanga).

 

It involves yama, niyama, asana, pranayama as outer/physical practice and pratyahara (sense withdrawal), dharana (taking up practice seriously), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (union with true self) as inner/spirit-mind practice.

 

Often these processes unfold in course of a good solid asana/pranayama an meditation practice. So someone who does Asana, pranayama and meditation because it feels good will go through the other stages (Yama and niyama - ie observance of common sense rules of nonviolence, honesty, humility, devotion etc) too evolve naturally.

 

During asana / pranayama practice the senses start to withdraw and the mind goes inward - pratyahara. The process elongates - dharana. The meditation happens (dhyana) till thoughts cease (samadhi).

 

 

[Antares]

Theoretically Yes! It is common theory which you can read almost in every book. Go to India and you will find 1000's books there on yoga with this theory. There are loads of different streams of yoga in India. And MOST of them are yoga therapy where people doing some asanas and pranayamas. And only some small percent out of them all is authentic spiritual yoga tradition. All styles that we know in the West are the same subsume yoga-therapy. Yes. It will make one healthier and happier but many people getting injuries. And yes they use this 8 limbs theory because they read about it in books. (yoga sutras). Map is not the territory. You can compare for instance sutras of Patanjali and Tirumantiram Tantra. Two of most ancient texts. Plus you can read Bhajrav Vigyan Tantra of Kashmir Shaivism and then talk to people who was in India and studied there in a traditional sampradaya. They certainly distinguish traditional authentic yoga from the new age yoga therapy. There are many really high level yogis who merely doing asanas and much more yogis who are very flexible but not spiritual. In traditional sampradaya they will not teach any asana first year and you will be just living there with Guru who teaches some another aspects of yoga. But when you come to yoga therapy guy he will teach you asanas straightforward. But what he will teach else? Yoga is not asana. But I can agree that pranayama helps to gain more prana and cleanse

Edited April 19, 2013 by Eugene

[Mal]

IIRC for Ashtanga yoga as taught by Joise, a foundation of yama niyama asana pranayama will lead one to the other limbs (as dwai mentioned)

 

The is it spiritual question, well what I see with the local teachers and their students are people who are happy, calm, loving people; who burn/glow with "health"

 

As my current practice has been reduced to standing meditation (I've some back issues that have flared up again) I'm very attracted to the goal of good health.

 

There was something I read about a family that only did sun salutes (in their entirety not just as an "exercise") who reported good spiritual and health benefits.

 

Sitting, standing still, moving. There are just so many ways to use all or any of these to achieve ones goals

[Antares]

Sitting, standing still, moving. There are just so many ways to use all or any of these to achieve ones goals

 

 

This is purely western approach to seat, stand and move. Yeah it can be something like that in taoist tradition but there is difference between them and even there there are many chikungs derived from authentic taoist neidan. Yeah, people getting benefits from it but the issue was about spirituality - liberation from all karma. When we are talking about Indian spirituality we must discern traditional texts and talk to guys from Indian authentic tradition. It is not to stand move or seat. It is philosophy and way teachers teach how to perceive the world, how to live, and only then there asanas etc. Western guys talking of this too. But talking and knowing is not the same. They will tell much for your money

[Antares]

For example in traditional yoga there is hatha yoga which came from natha sampradaya. But traditionally all asanas were connected with 84 mahasiddhas. In the beginning Guru would give you mantra of Gorakshanath and in general there are many mantras. Gorakshanath is Shiva as they believe. This is foundation. Ashtanga yoga subsume hatha yoga. They say no guru no yoga.

[Guest Jason Croft]

Yoga is going for 150 HK$ an hour in HK . . . I strongly suggest the book "The Five Tibetans by Christopher Kilham." - Although - there are some pretty good E-books on the internet.

The Ancient Secrets of the Fountain of Youth is free, for the Google search, Autobiography of a yoga is free and Raja Yoga (Raja means the highest form of ) is free - albeit both are about 250 pages whereas "The Five Tibetans by Christopher Kilham." is 85 pages with 10 of the 85 pages being pictures.

[Guest Jason Croft]

"The Five Tibetans by Christopher Kilham." also has a very good chapter on 'Kundalini Yoga' that I have practiced for well over 10 years - but I don't teach it.

[dwai]

Theoretically Yes! It is common theory which you can read almost in every book. Go to India and you will find 1000's books there on yoga with this theory. There are loads of different streams of yoga in India. And MOST of them are yoga therapy where people doing some asanas and pranayamas. And only some small percent out of them all is authentic spiritual yoga tradition. All styles that we know in the West are the same subsume yoga-therapy. Yes. It will make one healthier and happier but many people getting injuries. And yes they use this 8 limbs theory because they read about it in books. (yoga sutras). Map is not the territory. You can compare for instance sutras of Patanjali and Tirumantiram Tantra. Two of most ancient texts. Plus you can read Bhajrav Vigyan Tantra of Kashmir Shaivism and then talk to people who was in India and studied there in a traditional sampradaya. They certainly distinguish traditional authentic yoga from the new age yoga therapy. There are many really high level yogis who merely doing asanas and much more yogis who are very flexible but not spiritual. In traditional sampradaya they will not teach any asana first year and you will be just living there with Guru who teaches some another aspects of yoga. But when you come to yoga therapy guy he will teach you asanas straightforward. But what he will teach else? Yoga is not asana. But I can agree that pranayama helps to gain more prana and cleanse

 

If you are talking about yoga as in PatanjAli then there are the 8 limbs. Asana is only one part of it. But what those asana are is a matter of the lineage/ tradition.

 

I think one must take what he/she can get. If it is asana in a western yoga studio then that's what it is. The key differentiator is the personal practice - do you practice at home as well ? Without background music? Without someone telling you what to do? Do you work within the limits of your capacity? Know when to stop?

 

Do you meditate in shavasana?

 

These are important things IMHO.

 

[johndoe2012]

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Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Antares]

"The Five Tibetans by Christopher Kilham." also has a very good chapter on 'Kundalini Yoga' that I have practiced for well over 10 years - but I don't teach it.

 

Nice to hear you have engaged in consistent practice. And I can only wish you the best. But I know few people who have been practicing 5 tibetans for many years and are not getting what is promised in the book. They benefit from it. But remember we are talking of spirituality. But not of therapy. As for kriya yoga you would need a knowledgeable person who will transmit it to you.

[Antares]

If you are talking about yoga as in PatanjAli then there are the 8 limbs. Asana is only one part of it. But what those asana are is a matter of the lineage/ tradition. I think one must take what he/she can get. If it is asana in a western yoga studio then that's what it is. The key differentiator is the personal practice - do you practice at home as well ? Without background music? Without someone telling you what to do? Do you work within the limits of your capacity? Know when to stop? Do you meditate in shavasana? These are important things IMHO.

Just forget about Patanjali for a while. He was just researcher of yoga. I would suggest you better to read

 

 

 

The Tirumandhiram (Tamil:திரு மந்திரம் ) is a Tamil poetic work written in the 5th century CE by Tirumular and is the tenth of the twelve volumes of the Tirumurai, the key texts of Tamil Saivism. It is the first known Tamil work to use the term Shaiva Siddhanta and the earliest known exposition of the Saiva Agamas in Tamil. It consists of over three thousand verses dealing with various aspects of spirituality, ethics and praise of the God Shiva. But it is more spiritual than religious and one can see the difference between Vedanta and Siddhanta from Tirumular's interpretation of the Mahakaavyas

 

This is more practical and this is one of the best text on yoga. Does not matter you practice with music or not if you are practicing not correctly. No guru no yoga. Only guru can explain what is there in the text. Otherwise it is only yoga therapy.

[Antares]

Eugene,

 

why not take up self-inquiry as taught by Ramana Maharshi? IMHO it is the most simple thing you could do to stop questioning at the root.

 

Just two questions: "who am I?" and "To whom did these thoughts arise?".

 

I did it many years ago. I did not benefit from it. There are many different aspects in yoga. I think one needs to have eastern mind and way of life to benefit much from it. As far as I know Maharshi died of cancer

[RongzomFan]

Just forget about Patanjali for a while.

 

I agree. Many people pointed out that Krishnamacharya-Iyengar yoga is downright weird with its constant referral to Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Their type of yoga is really more or less ancient Nath yoga. (Although modern Naths don't practice asanas anymore. Its confusing. )