The most influential Taoist figure in last century: Chen Ying Ning

[LAOLONG]

I am not a "master" but I have my moments

today I was sitting empty minded surrounded

by trees and birds smoke my tobacco drink coffee

remote places didn't attract me

life and death did not bother me

[Walker]

Chen Yingning explains his reasons for believing that the inner secrets of Daoist alchemy should not be shared with foreigners in the foreword to his edited and annotated version of the 《乐育堂语录》. It doesn't come across as particularly racist, especially if his words are taken (as they should be) in light of the historical context of China's subjugation by foreign powers, the Opium Wars, the behavior of the Japanese during WWII, and so forth. These memories are still fresh in China--all the more so when Chen was writing. His main point was that, if even the secrets of subtle cultivation are given away, then China will having nothing left that might save her from yet more foreign aggression in the future.

 

Chen's sentiments might seem a bit nonsensical and superstitious--after all, how could wizards and fortune tellers help China from modern warfare and financial wranglings? Is there any relationship between cultivating Dao and government? Well, though likely very few of them have truly "awakened to reality," nevertheless be sure that all manner of Yi Jing diviners, psychics and spiritualists, feng shui masters, people with "special abilities," and so forth are still to this day engaged (quietly) by the PRC government as well as by the rich and powerful. Cultivators stepping forward from lives of quiet cultivation to change history is a phenomenon all Chinese are aware of--Zhuge Liang and Qiu Chuji are two famous Daoists people on this board might be aware of who did just that--altered the course of history by virtue of the power of their... virtue. More recently, it is widely believed that the Communist victory over Nationalist forces came in part to their superior use of bagua-based strategy in warfare, thanks to the input of various wise men. Is that how it really went down? Who knows. But the belief is real.

 

I have no idea whether or not any foreigners ever sought out Chen in search of esoteric (or exoteric) Daoist knowledge, but if he turned them away, he also would have turned many Chinese away, as well. From what I understand, his actual disciples were very few. I am not certain, but Hu Haiya might have been the only one. The recently-passed Hu Haiya, too, did not have a reputation for handing teachings out freely. In fact, this kind of attitude is a part of the Daoist tradition, as it has always been the case that while some masters may have many, many students, disciples who receive thorough transmission are always very few, including as few as one or, if no worthy heirs appear, zero.

 

Now, if Chen was miserly in handing out koujue (口诀--simple, secret oral instructions that serve as keys which can open the door to real practice and profound understanding of theory if understood and used properly), he was certainly no miser when it came to revealing as much as possibly could be said in publicly-available writings without incurring the wrath of Heaven. I have only read a fraction of his work, but his exposition of the Triplex Unity (《周易参同契》) was extremely useful and clear. When combined with a certain amount of background knowledge to help the reader understand the things that Chen only alludes to, then it easily opens many doors that more abstruse (or mistaken) commentaries on this text leave closed.

 

As for the pasted comments from the Chinese forum above, I agree with Excorcist that they're not particularly racist, except for the use of the word "foreign devils" haha, but even that seems relatively light hearted. And whomever wrote, "翻译者懂参同悟真吗？如此翻译，岂不是骗外国人？" is asking, "does the translator really understand the Triplex Unity? If not, then how is translating it anything other than bamboozling foreigners?" Such is anything but a racist sentiment, and a legitimate question, with foreign practitioners' best interests in mind!

 

Finally, with regards,

 

Another thing my Chinese friends (I visit some forums) are only happy to remind me about 陈撄宁 is his fierce reffutal of the idea of teaching foreigners these 国宝。A view still shared even among the most openminded, as I found out later. Unless your teacher is not from 大陆。Of course, there are a few exceptions.

 

Trust me when I say that, when a "foreign devil" displays a level of sincerity and humility inversely proportionate to the duplicity and arrogance long freely wielded by many foreigners in China, and proves his or her ability to "eat bitter" by learning the language to real proficiency, and eats yet more bitter by doing his or her homework to learn that knowledge of the traditions of China which is freely available... well, when that foreigner walks the streets, more doors will fly open before his or her eyes than there is time to walk through. And as for those teachers whose doors still won't open when the knocker comes clothed in humility, sincerity, and perseverance... well. Either that door is simply not yours by fate... or ain't nothing behind it that you really want anyway. Pick up your begging bowl and walk to the next temple. Sooner or later somebody will give you your ladle-full of gruel... and you only need one or two to fill your belly... knamean?

Edited May 4, 2014 by Walker

[宁]

Chen Yingning explains his reasons for believing that the inner secrets of Daoist alchemy should not be shared with foreigners in the foreword to his edited and annotated version of the 《乐育堂语录》. It doesn't come across as particularly racist, especially if his words are taken (as they should be) in light of the historical context of China's subjugation by foreign powers, the Opium Wars, the behavior of the Japanese during WWII, and so forth. These memories are still fresh in China--all the more so when Chen was writing. His main point was that, if even the secrets of subtle cultivation are given away, then China will having nothing left that might save her from yet more foreign aggression in the future.

 

Chen's sentiments might seem a bit nonsensical and superstitious--after all, how could wizards and fortune tellers help China from modern warfare and financial wranglings? Is there any relationship between cultivating Dao and government? Well, though likely very few of them have truly "awakened to reality," nevertheless be sure that all manner of Yi Jing diviners, psychics and spiritualists, feng shui masters, people with "special abilities," and so forth are still to this day engaged (quietly) by the PRC government as well as by the rich and powerful. Cultivators stepping forward from lives of quiet cultivation to change history is a phenomenon all Chinese are aware of--Zhuge Liang and Qiu Chuji are two famous Daoists people on this board might be aware of who did just that--altered the course of history by virtue of the power of their... virtue. More recently, it is widely believed that the Communist victory over Nationalist forces came in part to their superior use of bagua-based strategy in warfare, thanks to the input of various wise men. Is that how it really went down? Who knows. But the belief is real.

 

I have no idea whether or not any foreigners ever sought out Chen in search of esoteric (or exoteric) Daoist knowledge, but if he turned them away, he also would have turned many Chinese away, as well. From what I understand, his actual disciples were very few. I am not certain, but Hu Haiya might have been the only one. The recently-passed Hu Haiya, too, did not have a reputation for handing teachings out freely. In fact, this kind of attitude is a part of the Daoist tradition, as it has always been the case that while some masters may have many, many students, disciples who receive thorough transmission are always very few, including as few as one or, if no worthy heirs appear, zero.

 

Now, if Chen was miserly in handing out koujue (口诀--simple, secret oral instructions that serve as keys which can open the door to real practice and profound understanding of theory if understood and used properly), he was certainly no miser when it came to revealing as much as possibly could be said in publicly-available writings without incurring the wrath of Heaven. I have only read a fraction of his work, but his exposition of the Triplex Unity (《周易参同契》) was extremely useful and clear. When combined with a certain amount of background knowledge to help the reader understand the things that Chen only alludes to, then it easily opens many doors that more abstruse (or mistaken) commentaries on this text leave closed.

 

As for the pasted comments from the Chinese forum above, I agree with Excorcist that they're not particularly racist, except for the use of the word "foreign devils" haha, but even that seems relatively light hearted. And whomever wrote, "翻译者懂参同悟真吗？如此翻译，岂不是骗外国人？" is asking, "does the translator really understand the Triplex Unity? If not, then how is translating it anything other than bamboozling foreigners?" Such is anything but a racist sentiment, and a legitimate question, with foreign practitioners' best interests in mind!

 

Finally, with regards,

 

 

Trust me when I say that, when a "foreign devil" displays a level of sincerity and humility inversely proportionate to the duplicity and arrogance long freely wielded by many foreigners in China, and proves his or her ability to "eat bitter" by learning the language to real proficiency, and eats yet more bitter by doing his or her homework to learn that knowledge of the traditions of China which is freely available... well, when that foreigner walks the streets, more doors will fly open before his or her eyes than there is time to walk through. And as for those teachers whose doors still won't open when the knocker comes clothed in humility, sincerity, and perseverance... well. Either that door is simply not yours by fate... or ain't nothing behind it that you really want anyway. Pick up your begging bowl and walk to the next temple. Sooner or later somebody will give you your ladle-full of gruel... and you only need one or two to fill your belly... knamean?

 

Thanks Walker, that was a great post!, I agree with many of the ideas mentioned here, knayoumean hehe.

I'll play the naysayer for the sake of argument, polarity is what gives birth to movement and life

 

Fact still remains that both Chen and Hu died without almost any noticeable cultivation accomplishments (by classical standards - in fact Hu was senile at the time of his death, or suffered from early stage of dementia, not clear, while Chen suffered from stomach illness, his wife, a fellow practitioner, died of breast cancer).

 

And the policy against teaching foreigners is still widespread. In rare instances that they agree to teach you somethings you'll only be a student, not a disciple. To become disciple you need alot more conditions and credentials, or an incredible fate with that teacher. There is also 'the red envelope policy', which is normal and part of Chinese tradition. Sincerity is often measured by the thickness of that envelope, and if you lack such means, you have to compensate proportionally with hard work - IF they consider you eligible, and even then you can't be sure about the depth of the teachings that you receive. Most of the times you're being taught simple methods behind closed doors, taking vows of secrecy for things that you should be able to find already in print in the Western Daoist literature (or on a quick 百度search)

 

It's lack of critical thinking that got me in trouble in the past, not lack of trust and confidence, my take is that when examining something, someone or a situation you should look at it from other perspectives that the most obvious ones, for your own sake.

'Tis a combination of different perspectives that may result in the 3D image / understanding you need to make informed decisions.

 

 

am not a "master" but I have my moments

today I was sitting empty minded surrounded

by trees and birds smoke my tobacco drink coffee

remote places didn't attract me

life and death did not bother me

 

 

Aha, I see. Surround yourself with crowds of the suffering (meditating in front of a ER section of a hospital would be my choice for you), whilst yourself sit on an empty stomach (not mind), and tell me how the Tao appears to you then.

 

When I eat potato chips and drink soda on a couch in front of the TV I feel closer to Tao than ever, so I dig you point

Edited May 4, 2014 by 宁

[Andrei]

I wanted to say exactly the same thing, I wouldn't spend too much time with this guy, he did not have any spiritual or else accomplishments apart from the fact that he read all the Daoist texts from Dao Zhang. Yes, he was a scholar but as he himself recognized in his journal, he failed in the Daoist cultivation.

[Walker]

Yes, it is true that nobody walks around claiming that Chen or Hu "made it."

 

However, that does not mean that the ideas they present are valueless to students (though, for the sake of clarity, I have read very little of Hu's writing and thus can't comment on it).

 

Ning, I do not agree with what you say about the red envelope, as my experience with money exchanges has quite often been the exact opposite.

 

As for what can be found on Baidu or in books both English and Chinese... it is not all there, and a massive sea of misinformation and overinformation obscures the gems from those without the various type of fortune that make such things easier to see. Additionally, high-level teachings should be simple, no?

 

Then again, perhaps I am simply fooling myself. Time and many other factors will tell.

 

Finally, a discussion about longevity and state of health at old age and what it means in terms of Daoist cultivation is worth being had. Even the "Seven True Disciples" of Wang Chongyang (and he himself) were not long lived. Yet they remain revered and their teachings to this day are the standards by which many practice. This seeming contradiction is worthy looking at, in another thread.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Walker

[宁]

I respect your view, Walker, and as I said, there are exceptions, this much I know, happy you found yours

 

Chen's story should be read by people with no grasp of Chinese Taoism, because it's not just the metaphysics, it's the traditional culture that comes embedded into, and as I'm sure you know, failure to grasp that results in it's very essence evading you, because you'll end up equating key terms to Western concepts into which they don't translate at all or only in part. Planet China, heh? (btw, there are some 派 that want their materials translated into English)

任法融, the head of the Chinese National Daoist Association, once spoke about the relevance of a 汉字 to Daoist culture and comprehension of Chinese metaphyisics; he kept on and on for three hours. Three hours conference about one single word.

That's why I support your view, biographies like Chen's are much needed as bibliography for Daoist wannabe's, if you want to play this game with seriousness, worry not about too much but about too little information.

[iradie]

Thank You Ning and Walker for this interesting exchange.

[iradie]

Taoism is very simple , zen is very simple,

it hide the world in the world, because it is so simple

people don't grasp it.

so what secret teaching the so called "masters" have

 

Dao De Jing: chapter 70

吾言甚易知，甚易行。

天下莫能知，莫能行。

言有宗，事有君。

夫唯無知，是以不我知。

知我者希，則我者貴。

是以聖人被褐懷玉。

 

- My words are very easy to know, and very easy to practise;

- but there is no one in the world who is able to know and able to practise them.

- There is an originating and all-comprehending (principle) in my words, and an authoritative law for the things (which I enforce).

- It is because they do not know these, that men do not know me.

- They who know me are few, and I am on that account (the more) to be prized.

- It is thus that the sage wears (a poor garb of) hair cloth, while he carries his (signet of) jade in his bosom.

 

translation James Legge

Edited May 4, 2014 by iradie

[Walker]

I respect your view, Walker, and as I said, there are exceptions, this much I know, happy you found yours

The exception?

 

It is the rule.

 

Many a teacher has directly said as much to me,and my own experience has confirmed this to be the case.

 

In a variety of circumstances, paying tuition is fine, but that which is to be had or not by virtue of the power of a fat red envelope... Perhaps it is best for each person to contemplate this question as he or she seeks whatever is being sought.

[Walker]

double post

Edited May 10, 2014 by Walker

[exorcist_1699]

 

 

 

Secondly I liked this model, how he created this journal and a network of lay persons emerged and a dynamic was created which attracted people interested for self-cultivationg methods. I would love behing able to study this magazine which not only had articles, but also letters from the readers.

 

I also liked his open-mindedness, after having studied the taoist canon he spent several years studying bouddhist texts. And even If he in the beginning was very critical of the cloistered and liturgical daoism, he ended supporting it .

 

Clearly Chen was the first person , by using the modern means of mass media ( magazine in 1930s' Shanghai region is something new ) , to talk about the secret of female alchemy .

 

But impress me most is Chen's emphasize on proofs in Taoist practices , which I find it so true. In Chang San Fang and Lu Dong Bin's works, for examples, what we read are , after telling us the Taoist ways of practice , these masters will then point out what physical and spiritual symptoms in our bodies will arise afterwards....that means, if no such symptoms emerge accordingly, we may have done something not so correctly . This, of course, differentiates Taoism from other religions, for most of them claim that their proofs are in the afterlife, somewhere in the Heaven...

Edited May 12, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[GrandmasterP]

Dealing with written text as authoritative, almost 'scriptural'; is very occidental.

Not all exports travel from East to West eh?

Edited May 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[iradie]

Dealing with written text as authoritative, almost 'scriptural'; is very occidental.

Not all exports travel from East to West eh?

[deci belle]

In Chang San Fang and Lu Dong Bin's works, for examples, what we read are , after telling us the Taoist ways of practice , these masters will then point out what physical and spiritual symptoms in our bodies will arise afterwards...

 

Evidences of efficacy.

[Walker]

Dealing with written text as authoritative, almost 'scriptural'; is very occidental.

Not all exports travel from East to West eh?

Treating written texts as authoritative, scriptural, sacred, etc is very common in all aspects of traditional Chinese culture. The habit is still to be found here. This habit was precisely one of the things Chen was trying to change with his "Immortalism Studies," and he said so explicitly.

 

Chinese thought, society, government, medicine, religion, and so forth all unfolded under the influence of "text worship." It continues to this day, though greatly abated.

[GrandmasterP]

Treating written texts as authoritative, scriptural, sacred, etc is very common in all aspects of traditional Chinese culture. The habit is still to be found here. This habit was precisely one of the things Chen was trying to change with his "Immortalism Studies," and he said so explicitly.

Chinese thought, society, government, medicine, religion, and so forth all unfolded under the influence of "text worship." It continues to this day, though greatly abated.

Man now there's a debate we could happily spend the rest of our lives exploring.

I'll see your 'text worship' in and from Confucianism but raise you post-Chan extra or contra-textual praxes.

Out on the ground, in one corner we have textual groupies endlessly trading yards of 'scripture-cum-sutras' and analysing same as per some threads on here.

Over in the other corner we have those who simply get on and cultivate leaving the words to the wordsmiths.

It's horses for courses and personal preference.

Some like to read, write and think about cultivation.

Some just cultivate.

There's room for all sorts and conditions so each to his own say I.

Edited May 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[deci belle]

…and the words by the wordsmiths perpetuate the wordsmithing~ "of the making of books, there is no end".

 

Since cultivation is completely natural and its extraordinary effect, in terms of the material and immaterial body, spontaneous beyond explanation (by me, at least), and I must admit that I didn't learn it— not even from a book, it is most fortunate that there were also attempts by adepts to perpetuate the patterns ascribing the wonder of it all. That's what got me wondering.

 

I can claim zero credit for the workings of energy inside the body other than a subsequent and occasional subtle guidance after the arising of a peculiar flow: how could it ever be taught?

 

Evidently, some have seen to it.

 

We are to be very grateful for that— or something close to it.

[GrandmasterP]

Quite right.

The effects are universally acknowledged across all cultures.

Only the labels vary in describing the same thing perceived through differing linguistic and cultural lenses.

The numinous is indescribable albeit some poets and artists make a fair attempt at doing so.

Edited May 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[iradie]

Dealing with written text as authoritative, almost 'scriptural'; is very occidental.

Not all exports travel from East to West eh?

 

I would like to know some more about what you mean, because I have the impression the chinese culture is so much the culture of the written word.

 

I am not an expert, but after what I have learnt, the texts and written word has a great importance in the chinese culture.

In my field, chinese medicine, the classics are the basis of research. It is a kind of direct link to the great doctors and teachers of history.

And here I sit in the classroom with my teacher talking about Sun Si Miao and he invokes him as an immortel to be with us and inspire us. Yes, he is very serious and professionnal

the link between the text, the presence of the immortels who have written or inspired these texts is very present. When I read them I feel I am in discussion with them.

that is one of the reasons why I feel near the feelings of Chen Ying Ning on this question.

 

But maybe in the daoist tradition, that I do not know so well, things are different.

[宁]

天地 13:15:01
中国绝学不传外国人
大家谨记
天童 13:15:35
@天地 骗人吧 好多东西已经传外了
幸福简单易失去℡ 13:15:55
还绝学呢
中国人都不会
天地 13:16:05
那只是普传的
天童 13:16:35
@天地 好多大师在国外
天地 13:16:37
已经传外了，满地都是神仙了
天地 13:17:53
好多大师在国外。想张洪宝那样的大师都在国外，忽悠外国人
天地 13:21:55
绝学不能传外国人
lk 13:22:54
狭隘，看看遍地十字架，很多外国大师向中国跑。
珈侬 13:23:18
想传也传不了，没中国的思维方式，老外学不去的，当然天童除外
醉眼观浮世 13:24:36
未必
珈侬 13:24:39
我翻译不了，英文没那么好，会看，会写一点点
醉眼观浮世 13:24:55
会意 而已
虚无 13:24:59
天地走了，可惜
天童 13:32:03
@虚无 是可惜，不想惹他了 更遗憾的应该是他的思维方式 很多丹道道家的东西已经在国外是能够学的不错 许多和尚道士在国外普及了中国的国宝，当时，八十年代之前你们中国还没允许练或者研究这方面的传统文化，不过在国外他们很受欢迎了
虚无 13:32:40
他说的是真的
天童13:33:27
恐怕不能这么确定的说吧
虚无13:33:51
真懂的都清楚
、传出去的都是些皮毛·

Edited May 14, 2014 by 宁

[iradie]

@ 宁

 

Why do you find these posts interesting ?

[宁]

The above (current) discussions represent the current mindset of Chinese inner alchemy community (including headmasters of important schools, not all but most, some of them teach some stuff overseas, for a good pay). I tried them out over and over, they're not just saying it, they actually mean it.

It's not the statements that I find interesting, though, it's the implications. Much in line with what Chen used to say. I'd say you need three things to succeed: the blood, the fate and the money.

Anyway this is only my current understanding (however informed it may be, it is subject to change over time), it's not meant to refute other positions, only to complement, if needed. Otherwise it can just be discarded, I could care less take what you need, discard what you don't

[iradie]

In this conversation about learning through books versus learning through experience, I cannot see that there should be a contradiction. We have different tools to realise ourselves on our way.

Writing, reading seems to me just another way to hear, and learn and think about the words of great masters. The advantage is that you do not only communicate with those alive, but also with those who are not longer in their human body, at least until they come and talk directly to you.

 

We learn that when you are in the process of learning it is important not only to hear, but also to understand, to learn and then to put in practice, otherwise the bowl is empty or broken.

that seems to me the same if you talk about the learning from a master who talks to you, or a master whose texts you read.

 

In the taoist temples, the master is teaching his students by showing them through simple everyday life, sometimes they give them a book to read, or even read or translate for them, others do not even want to talk. there are so many ways.

 

In my personal case, I just love texts because they have been a way out of a very narrow existence. Being able to hear some masters talk to us can be the first impulse to find new ways. I still love and need them for these impulses. But of course reading without learning or practicing is a nonsense, and reading without searching ourselves is being lazy.

Edited May 14, 2014 by iradie

[iradie]

In this conversation about learning through books versus learning through experience, I cannot see that there should be a contradiction. We have different tools to realise ourselves on our way.
Writing, reading seems to me just another way to hear, and learn and think about the words of great masters. The advantage is that you do not only communicate with those alive, but also with those who are not longer in their human body, at least until they come and talk directly to you.

We learn that when you are in the process of learning it is important not only to hear, but also to understand, to learn and then to put in practice, otherwise the bowl is empty or broken.
that seems to me the same if you talk about the learning from a master who talks to you, or a master whose texts you read.

In the taoist temples, the master is teaching his students by showing them through simple everyday life, sometimes they give them a book to read, or even read or translate for them, others do not even want to talk. there are so many ways.

In my personal case, I just love texts because they have been a way out of a very narrow existence. Being able to hear some masters talk to us can be the first impulse to find new ways. I still love and need them for these impulses. But of course reading without learning or practicing is a nonsense, and reading without searching ourselves is being lazy.

Edited May 14, 2014 by iradie

[GrandmasterP]

It's maybe not so much a 'versus' in the sense of conflict between two schools but one of approach.

We all read a lot for sure.

No library no Tao Bum.

Most of us cultivate some form or another too.

Those who cultivate will fall into two main camps.

Those who are taught by a teacher and those who have learnt from books and DVDs.

Now I suspect but do not know, that the libraries of those former cultivators, taught by a teacher will have lots of general works and maybe not so many on what teacher teaches.

Some for sure but not to the exclusion of other works.

Whereas the library/ DVD stash of the Bum who has learnt from a book or DVD without a teacher might consist of works chiefly about the form they are currently cultivating with maybe another smaller stash of works on the forms they had a go at before this current one.

Edited May 14, 2014 by GrandmasterP