[HHC Study] Hua Hu Ching Chapter 1

[Aaron]

[Note- Although posted in the Taoist Discussions section of this forum, this thread is intended to be a chapter study of Chapter one of the Hua Hu Ching. With that in mind please restrict your responses to the chapter at hand. Any discussions regarding the validity, origins, or intent of the Hua Hu Ching should be directed to another thread and not this one. I welcome everyone to participate. Questions are welcome, as well as answers. Please follow the FAQ rules located in the Tao Te Ching subforum (changing Tao Te Ching to Hua Hu Ching where needed).]

 

Hua Hu Ching

Chapter One

 

 

I reach the Integral Way of uniting with the great and mysterious Tao. My teachings are simple; if you try to make a religion or science of them, they will elude you. Profound yet plain, they contain the entire truth of the universe. Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them. Having completed it, they take joy in cleansing and feeding themselves. Having cared for others and for themselves, they then turn to the master for instruction. This simple path leads to peace, virtue, and abundance.

 

 

 

Translated by Brian Browne Walker

http://brianbrownewa...m/hua-hu-ching/

Edited January 2, 2013 by Aaron

[Marblehead]

Good advice, IMO.

[Mal]

To “know” simply take joy in doing your work and looking after your bodies needs.

With that done ask your teacher what to do next

[Marblehead]

To “know” simply take joy in doing your work and looking after your bodies needs.

With that done ask your teacher what to do next

 

(Yeah, but I never had much faith in my teachers. I mostly did my own thing.)

[manitou]

Just using the concept of the Integral Way is very telling in itself. This would be another description of The Middle Way, the golden mean - finding balance in all things seen and unseen. One dynamic of The Way in and of itself is not complete - it must be aligned with acceptance of All That Is, combined with the understanding that we, too, are That.

 

As The Way has no rules per se, it would be akin to hearding cats to try and compress it into a specific religion. Specific 'religious' practices may aid one to the experiences required for understanding, but religion in and of itself is not the end result. the end result is to master this thing we call Life - to find the most pragmatic way of merging physical phenomena with the dynamics of the rules of spirit, those dynamics we know are there.

 

What a simple and wonderful concept: to take joy in doing the work and service that comes to us. this thought alone should take much anxiety out of our lives. It is saying, that in essence, there is nothing for us to "do".....we need be concerned only for that which is coming down the pike. the years of fine-tuning that we do within our own characters is one of the integral components that makes this all work - if we are not being led by ego (if we've done our homework and tamed it so that we can see clearly), our lives and our attitudes become aligned with what's going on around us; because at some point, we realize that we are the Tao. As above, so below. This is why the Tao (and the fruits of our previous self-purging actions) manifests even within the minutae of our daily lives - like the concept of micro / macro, our bodies being the physical manifestation, on a micro level, of that great macro entity of the universe and the totality of the Tao.

 

At some point, if we are impeccable with our thoughts and actions, Life becomes the Master. Every single person is our teacher, as they are a reflection of ourselves. We get to the point where we are no longer at the mercy of our monkey-minds; we become the master of what we wish our attitudes to be because we've tamed our thinking mechanism. It's for this reason that 'this simple path leads to peace, virtue, and abundance.' Although the concept of 'abundance' means something different to me now than it did some years back.

[ChiDragon]

Hi, folks.....

 

Before we go too far, let me clarify that the 化胡经(Hua Hu Ching) is a fairy tale written by the Tao Cult. It was praised that Loa Tze as the supreme deity in the Taoist religion. 化胡经(Hua Hu Ching) does not reflect nor represent the principles in the Tao Te Ching because it was only a fairy tale.

Edited January 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hi, folks.....

 

Before we go too far, let me clarify that the 化胡经(Hua Hu Ching) is a fairy tale written by the Tao Cult. It was praised that Loa Tze as the supreme deity in the Taoist religion. 化胡经(Hua Hu Ching) does not reflect nor represent the principles in the Tao Te Ching because it was only a fairy tale.

But even fairy tales are a part of Tao. Hehehe. You did good reminding us. Now be nice and play with us.

[ChiDragon]

Now be nice and play with us.

 

I will, only if you play it right.......

[thelerner]

But even fairy tales are a part of Tao. Hehehe. You did good reminding us. Now be nice and play with us.

Also let us keep in mind (and respect??) rule of post # 1 this thread is intended to be a chapter study of Chapter one of the Hua Hu Ching. With that in mind please restrict your responses to the chapter at hand. Any discussions regarding the validity, origins, or intent of the Hua Hu Ching should be directed to another thread and not this one.

 

While my views are similar to Chi Dragons, there is some good philosophy in the Hua Hu Ching and I look forward to the discussion of them.

Edited January 4, 2013 by thelerner

[Mal]

As The Way has no rules per se, it would be akin to hearding cats to try and compress it into a specific religion. Specific 'religious' practices may aid one to the experiences required for understanding, but religion in and of itself is not the end result. the end result is to master this thing we call Life - to find the most pragmatic way of merging physical phenomena with the dynamics of the rules of spirit, those dynamics we know are there.

 

Lovely

 

And it's not a "science" either (which if often used as the balancing duality to religion) We do not need to investigate, understand, label, and quantify practices.

It’s the “doing” that’s important.

 

Personally I always tried to teach myself … yet it was with the guidance of teachers where I have made greatest progress.

[manitou]

Hi, folks.....

 

Before we go too far, let me clarify that the 化胡经(Hua Hu Ching) is a fairy tale written by the Tao Cult. It was praised that Loa Tze as the supreme deity in the Taoist religion. 化胡经(Hua Hu Ching) does not reflect nor represent the principles in the Tao Te Ching because it was only a fairy tale.

 

I guess you can see it wherever you want to see it...

[ChiDragon]

I guess you can see it wherever you want to see it...

 

It is not the case. I don't want to see what I want to see. I want to see what it says for what it is.

[spiraltao]

edit.

Edited January 4, 2013 by spiraltao

[Aaron]

Chidragon... this debate should end here. This isn't the place for this discussion. If you want to discuss this further take it elsewhere, otherwise I'll ask for moderator action. This is a discussion about the meaning of Chapter One of the Hua Hu Ching, not the place for you to express your notions of veracity or authenticity. This is also the reason why we should have a subforum for Taoists Texts and Studies, so these kinds of off-topic discussions don't occur. I had hoped people would read the original post and respect my requests for an on-topic discussion. Seriously, I'm very disappointed. Please don't reply to this post, send me a personal message. This topic has been taken off-topic enough as it is.

 

Aaron

Edited January 4, 2013 by Aaron

[dawei]

I'll want to join in too when I have time. I have the daoist master Hui-Ching Ni's translation and will post in a new thread his "Introduction" as it is a rather interesting read.

[Mal]

Thanks dawei, I look forward to reading that.

[Aaron]

I like this first chapter, because it speaks volumes about the concepts of compassion and frugality. I think it's interesting that the author makes a point of saying that the concepts being taught will be lost if they are turned into a religion or science. I also think it's important to note that he says, "entire truth of the universe" rather than "entire truth in the universe". Certainly something to remember. The comments about taking joy in your daily life seems absent in most Taoist teachings, so it was kind of refreshing to see it here. Keep in mind, I think the master spoken of here isn't a "guru", but the actual master who ruled the province, which is important, because, if that's true, that denotes that this text isn't intended for the ruling elite, so much as the commoner. Anyways that's my two cents.

 

Aaron

 

edit- The master is something that really deserves more investigation. Depending on what type of master it is, denotes what kind of instruction we're receiving.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Aaron

[Mal]

I like the "pre requisits". The importance of taking joy from what you are doing, from being of service. When you have done that look after your body. Able to do that as well? Got some time left? O.K. turn to the "master" for "instruction"

 

Who or what is the master? We have all walked a path to get to where we are now in our lifes. Most of us are/were searching, who (or where) do we turn to for help? Outside we have parents, friends, teachers, roll models. There is nature, the world itself. Inside we have ourself,

 

We look to the experienced to guide our way, or we use our own experiences and observations to guide us.

[dawei]

Hua Hu Ching

Chapter One

 

I reach the Integral Way of uniting with the great and mysterious Tao. My teachings are simple; if you try to make a religion or science of them, they will elude you. Profound yet plain, they contain the entire truth of the universe. Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them. Having completed it, they take joy in cleansing and feeding themselves. Having cared for others and for themselves, they then turn to the master for instruction. This simple path leads to peace, virtue, and abundance.

 

For a comparison, here is Ni's first chapter... I probably won't type further chapters but this is quite short and easy enough to show the flavor of his writing as a comparison:

 

There once was a great white-bearded master who appeared at the boundary of the Central Territory on his journey west. Followers came from everywhere to sit at hsi feet for he was a model of universal harmony.

 

His teaching was simple, yet profound. His instruction was neither ordinary religion nor worldly wisdom, yet it revealed the truth of every aspect of the universe. All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully. They maintained a peaceful, righteous way of life and enjoyed the abundance of their being. After their daily work was completed, they cleansed themselves carefully and fed themselves properly. Then they went to the garden where the old master stayed and awaited his precious instruction.

 

The line that I like, and which Mal mentioned in Walker's version is:

 

Walker: Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them.

 

Ni: All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully

 

To me, Ni does not have the condition of "if..." and it has a more, natural, Zen flavor to it.

[Aaron]

For a comparison, here is Ni's first chapter... I probably won't type further chapters but this is quite short and easy enough to show the flavor of his writing as a comparison:

 

 

 

The line that I like, and which Mal mentioned in Walker's version is:

 

Walker: Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them.

 

Ni: All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully

 

To me, Ni does not have the condition of "if..." and it has a more, natural, Zen flavor to it.

 

Well it's nice to see that both are quite similar, just a few variations in the translations. Ni's sounds more like a autobiography, sort of like the book of John, whereas Walker's seems more like Psalms. Is that how you would view it?

 

Aaron

 

edit- In Ni's case the master would most likely have been Lao Tzu himself... that is interesting indeed.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Aaron

[Aaron]

I like the "pre requisits". The importance of taking joy from what you are doing, from being of service. When you have done that look after your body. Able to do that as well? Got some time left? O.K. turn to the "master" for "instruction"

 

Who or what is the master? We have all walked a path to get to where we are now in our lifes. Most of us are/were searching, who (or where) do we turn to for help? Outside we have parents, friends, teachers, roll models. There is nature, the world itself. Inside we have ourself,

 

We look to the experienced to guide our way, or we use our own experiences and observations to guide us.

 

Good points. I think if we're to accept that the Master is Lao Tzu (from Ni's translation and the fact that one could even see Walker's as pointing to Lao Tzu,) then where do we go from there? Do we accept the words of Lao Tzu as our master or search for Taoist a master to teach us? Even then how do we know if he's teaching us Lao Tzu's teachings or his own? This is where reading ahead comes in handy, because this is addressed later on, but I don't want to be a spoiler, so I'll leave it at that.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Aaron

[spiraltao]

I am anxiously awaiting to get to that part. ^^^^^

[manitou]

Good points. I think if we're to accept that the Master is Lao Tzu (from Ni's translation and the fact that one could even see Walker's as pointing to Lao Tzu,) then where do we go from there? Do we accept the words of Lao Tzu as our master or search for Taoist master to teach us? Even then how do we know if he's teaching us Lao Tzu's teachings or his own? This is where reading ahead comes in handy, because this addressed later on, but I don't want to be a spoiler, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I don't think it matters that much, actually. If the words of anyone are the true Tao, they will resonate.

[Mal]

I'm not sure it matters if the master was "the old master" (aside from the book telling us that we are reading his words) any "master" would do.

 

I don't want to exclude/devalue being self taught or looking within yourself for answers (as inside is often the correct place to look) but I can't escape the fact that I feel I've progressed most when under the guidance of a teacher.

 

p.s. I love how this new site notifies you of new posts while you are writing

[Aaron]

I'm not sure it matters if the master was "the old master" (aside from the book telling us that we are reading his words) any "master" would do.

 

I don't want to exclude/devalue being self taught or looking within yourself for answers (as inside is often the correct place to look) but I can't escape the fact that I feel I've progressed most when under the guidance of a teacher.

 

p.s. I love how this new site notifies you of new posts while you are writing

 

I agree. (On the side, I don't think Taoism teaches you not to have a teacher, but rather not to blindly follow others.)

 

Aaron