Te Tao Ching...Theistic? A linguistic challenge...

[stefos]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm new to this sub-forum so please understand that I am VERY ignorant about the Te Tao Ching.

 

I have Stephen Hendricks books which contain the Te Tao Ching in translations from the 2 archaeological finds from southwest and northern China respectively.

 

So, My question is this:

 

I've been keeping an eye out for linguistic similarities in various cultures, in particular the use of the the word "God."

 

In the following languages, God or a divine being is described as follows:

Theos (Greek) God.....Theia (Greek) Goddess

Deus (Latin) God

Deva (Sanskrit) God (divine being similar to an angel)

Shang Di/Ti (Chinese) God

Te (Aztec) God....Tenochtitlan....Teotl....etc.

 

Could it be that the Te Tao Ching is actually a Theistic work?

 

I have also noticed that "reuniting" with this consciousness/a state of being outside of space/time is THE main thrust of the Te Tao Ching and not creating elixirs giving a long life span...If I'm right of course. Western Alchemy echos the same sentiment as well.

 

Please comment!

Thank you!

Stefos

[Marblehead]

Hi Stefos,

 

Well, for a newbee you sure do ask challenging questions. Hehehe.

 

Fair question though. My response will present only my perspective and understanding.

 

Could it be that the Te Tao Ching is actually a Theistic work?

 

I have also noticed that "reuniting" with this consciousness/a state of being outside of space/time is THE main thrust of the Te Tao Ching and not creating elixirs giving a long life span...If I'm right of course. Western Alchemy echos the same sentiment as well.

 

IMO, the TTC is a philosophical essay. It contains guidance by which, if followed, will make one's life a little easier to live and enjoy.

 

Yes, within the TTC there are the roots of Alchemic (Shamanistic) Taoism.

 

Yes, within the TTC there are the roots of Religious Taoism.

 

But no, it is not, in my opinion, a Theistic essay. Yes, the TTC speaks of Tao in the noun form (we have da ongoing discussion of that) but it is not in a form that one could justifiably translate into the noun "God" as it is used in religions.

[manitou]

I'd add too that the closest aspect to 'god' in the TTC is more the acknowledgment of The Void - not to be seen as a creature outside of ourselves that's calling the shots, as you have in many religions. It approaches more the 'nature of matter' reality that the Buddhists would be concerned with - trying to align ourselves with the underlying dynamics of this great colloid that we are a part of. One of our TaoBums members likes to say it's the space between the thoughts, this mixture of inner and outer dynamics which are, in the end, all connected.

[三江源]

HI stefos, I'd say you have it right.

 

I can say that because I dont have an image of God as a man with a beard in the sky.. well, I do actually have that image, come to think of it, or I wouldnt have mentioned it...and also.. along with that image, which is something I got from Santa and MichaelAngelo and Blake, I also have a sense of god as the primordial force which manifests in all forms and yes, shows itself as deva's and dakini and shines through us as teh.

 

In taoism, The Primordial is something we can communicate with via trees and planets and stars, our own bodies, water, fire, earth and air... I would say that the primordial is God... if I wanted to use that word.. because we contact all of these elements of creation,in order to empty our ignorance and allow the wisdom of creation to breathe through us.

[ChiDragon]

Fair question though. My response will present only my perspective and understanding.

Yes, within the TTC there are the roots of Alchemic (Shamanistic) Taoism.

Yes, within the TTC there are the roots of Religious Taoism.

 

Hmmm....

Where and how did you get these vague and bogus ideas from reading the Tao Te Ching.....???

Edited January 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

This may be putting the cart before the horse. The TTC is probably the last book to inquiry concerning Shang Di; the full phrase does not exist in the book. Although the more standard 'Di' occurs once, and that formula is in the oracle bones. But the one usage makes it clear that the meaning is, Dao is prior to Di... so how can that be the same

 

It seems to me that you should first inquire as to what/who is Shang Di. This requires looking at chinese history and mythology but it should be realized the two were inseparable to the ancient chinese. This is a hint about the 'inseparable' aspect; Oneness... not transcendence. There are ancient rituals for ancestor worship so as to not separate life and death; to not separate what is on Earth from what is in Heaven. (Do you see their ancient picture of vertical, non-separating aspect for space and time?)

 

"Shang" is simply adding a vertical prefix to Di. But Di was considered the highest deity which oversaw all aspects of life, spirits, gods, etc. Although one might be then inclined to translate "Shang Di" as "God most high", that would simply be a forced western religious conceit. So the addition of "Shang" is more a 'location' pictogram.

 

Di was originally appealed to but was more impersonal. Later was replaced with "Tian" (also used for sky) by the Zhou Dynasty onward. After all, how could the Zhou maintain the word "Shang" for Di when they just defeated the Shang Dynasty

 

There are plenty of myth gods and people who become gods or are ascribed as god over the course of time. Philosophically speaking, Daoism and Buddhism share more of this. Search for ancient chinese mythology or chinese gods. Archaeology shows ancient rituals and objects. It would also help to see how Confucian's viewed divinity. http://www.crvp.org/book/Series03/III-25/chapter-3.htm

 

There are so many chinese myth stories that a few are actually sharing similarity to the christian story of creation. And one might see a similarity to the christian idea to 'reunite with God' and 'reunite with Dao', but it is more like restoring what is dormant or not being utilized. This idea of 'restoring' shows up in many different ways in the TTC, IMO.

 

As for cosmology, one will get a chinese view of how it all begain; more like a big bang with light energy coming forth from a spiritual ancestor called the void;. How did all of that transforming and manifesting process occur?

 

That is what we call Dao.

 

Don't separate how processes may occur in the void from the manifest today. There is a singularity (Way) which oversees it all but what results is ever-changing. The only thing constant is change. So constant and change are really two names which come from the same source and are really the same thing. They are inseparable.

 

Now you can think Yin and Yang. Once light/energy emerges, we see it manifest into it's two building blocks. Those two inseparable parts put in motion the arising of the 10,000 things (physical world in TTC) whereby all things eventually return to their source.

[三江源]

But the one usage makes it clear that the meaning is, Dao is prior to Di... so how can that be the same

 

interesting post, thankyou dawei.

 

If Dao is prior to Di, does that mean that Di is manifestation of Dao, or a facet of Dao.. so not the same, and yet, the same.. or would that be incorrect?

[ChiDragon]

Di was originally appealed to but was more impersonal. Later was replaced with "Tian" (also used for sky) by the Zhou Dynasty onward. After all, how could the Zhou maintain the word "Shang" for Di when they just defeated the Shang Dynasty

 

帝(di): the highest ruler among a kingdom.

上(shang4): upper; above; high; supreme

上帝(shang4 di): it is the supreme ruler in the universe, in the Chinese language, which is God to the Chinese Christians.

 

商朝: Shang1 Dynasty.

You are getting the shang4(上) and shang1(商) mixed up. BTW It's not your fault but the phonetics.

Edited January 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

帝(di): the highest ruler among a kingdom.

上(shang4): upper; above; high; supreme

上帝(shang4 di): it is the supreme ruler in the universe, in the Chinese language, which is God to the Chinese Christians.

 

商朝: Shang1 Dynasty.

You are getting the shang4(上) and shang1(商) mixed up. BTW It's not your fault but the phonetics.

It is good you made that more clear... but I was not confusing two characters... I know they are two. I am suggesting that the mere sound would not be acceptable even if another character.

 

But thanks again so everyone can understand this better.

[ChiDragon]

interesting post, thankyou dawei.

 

If Dao is prior to Di, does that mean that Di is manifestation of Dao, or a facet of Dao.. so not the same, and yet, the same.. or would that be incorrect?

 

"Dao is prior to Di". It was very cleared that Dao is prior and separated from Di which are not the same. BTW Lao Tze is an atheist. "Di" was known to the people; thus he uses the word character of "Di" was only a convenience for the explanation of Dao.

Edited January 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Hmmm....

Where and how did you get these vague and bogus ideas from reading the Tao Te Ching.....???

One has to look very carefully and read the words between the lines.

[ChiDragon]

One thing I learned about other ways of life or religions is that it is better to use the original terms in there rather than translating it into English and filling in the word. For example, prajna, it's better to keep it as prajna because it's hard to translate it into English as the word wisdom does not complete display what the word mean. Once a word is translated and the root is not recognized, you can use that word to rip up anyone.

 

Exactly. I couldn't agree more. It is the same with "Tao". If "way" was translated for "Tao", then the root is not recognized.

 

 

PS....

You are a scholar and a gentleman.....

Edited January 3, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

One has to look very carefully and read the words between the lines.

 

You mean I have not done enough of that.

 

oops.....

Sorry, I was looking at the original classic rather than the various translations. The various translations may lead anybody to believe anything..........

[dawei]

interesting post, thankyou dawei.

 

If Dao is prior to Di, does that mean that Di is manifestation of Dao, or a facet of Dao.. so not the same, and yet, the same.. or would that be incorrect?

I think all of the above.

 

I know others don't share my point of view on this... but I see Dao as part of the Oneness; not the Ultimate Oneness of everything itself... it is the mechanism the [anything which is a part of the] Oneness follows, how it all works, regardless of the state (void, manifest).

 

Using Man: Dao is prior to Heaven and Earth; Earth is prior to Man...

 

While Lao Zi said Dao is prior to Heaven and Earth, Zhuangzi said something like: I was born at the same time as Heaven and Earth... So what can truly be prior to what?

 

Anything that is a part of the Oneness aspect arises from Dao; But Dao is a part of the Oneness aspect so everything exists together at one time.

 

I'll finish the conundrum with: Chinese use words to describe some aspect and that is no different for how they viewed that part which makes up the metaphysical or spiritual realm (or those parts of the Oneness which cannot be seen or unmanifest). They could of just left it all as 'spirit' but it turned to 'spirits' and then they for the mountain, sea, sky, ground, river, rain, etc...

[dawei]

"Di" was known to the people; thus he uses the word character of "Di" was only a convenience for the explanation of Dao.

I do agree with this and why I made mention that they used some way of expressing what they understood.

[flowing hands]

Dao and God are completely two different things. There has been a huge misnoma about the idea of God. The word has been used to describe things that maybe the creator or maybe a person ascribed to have created the universes. All this is complete and utter nonsense. If god was a human he would be a she and she would have given birth to man not the other way round. The word Dao simply means 'way' or 'path'. It is made up of two characters; the shaman's head wearing deer antlers and the character to walk. So we have the word which means to walk in a wise and knowing way, to find one's path through the intracacies of life by wisdom and knowledge. This can be applied literally to all aspects of life. If one is talking about the spiritual side or path then this is called Dao Xin, for here lies the root of the spiritual path. The DDJ touches on all aspects of the Dao, this is why it can be misleading when one does not know the origin or understand what Dao actually means.

 

God does not exists in Dao, Gods exist in Dao xin, for they are created by the 'universal life force' which is the creator of all things; call it the big bang. Once this came into existence the Dao and Dao xin came into existence. So were Gods created and Immortality for those who practiced the Dao Xin path. The 'universal life force' was the original force behind the big bang, no God or Dao.

[GrandmasterP]

TTC cannot be a theistic text by any classical definition of theistic as it nowhere posits, specifies nor identifies a deity.

HTH

[ChiDragon]

"The word Dao simply means 'way' or 'path'. It is made up of two characters; the shaman's head wearing deer antlers and the character to walk. So we have the word which means to walk in a wise and knowing way, to find one's path through the intracacies of life by wisdom and knowledge."

 

Is that your finding for the root of the character Tao

 

It is a pity for someone who has such a narrow view. I grant you that was the definition from the outside view of the TTC. It seems to me that you have not studied the main Chapters in the TTC with a close look.

Edited January 4, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

You mean I have not done enough of that.

 

oops.....

Sorry, I was looking at the original classic rather than the various translations. The various translations may lead anybody to believe anything..........

Your perception is almost mysical. (But only almost.)

 

Edited January 4, 2013 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

While Lao Zi said Dao is prior to Heaven and Earth, Zhuangzi said something like: I was born at the same time as Heaven and Earth... So what can truly be prior to what?

If I remember correctly he was speaking to the concept that time is cyuclical when he said that. (He was in one of his mystical states at that time. Hehehe.)

Edited January 4, 2013 by Marblehead

[ShenLung]

Chi Dragon: Knowing as you do, the ancient chinese ideograms and their colloquialisms, and knowing, as you do, the modern english (american, generally, I hope) and it's colloquialisms, I am hoping for a more comprehendable rendering of TTC from you. What I can grok, I grok .. but the stuff that gets me stuck is in those coloquial expressions that make sense for the people at the time, and get lost in translation.

 

A gentleman, telling a lady " I will knock you up" means two entirely differnt things, depending upon whether one is a gentleman in America, or a Gentleman in England. Getting a translation that can cut through this miasma of meanings is of vital impotance. Can you help with this?

[dawei]

"The word Dao simply means 'way' or 'path'. It is made up of two characters; the shaman's head wearing deer antlers and the character to walk. So we have the word which means to walk in a wise and knowing way, to find one's path through the intracacies of life by wisdom and knowledge."

 

Is that your finding for the root of the character Tao

 

It is a pity for someone who has such a narrow view. I grant you that was the definition from the outside view of the TTC. It seems to me that you have not studied the main Chapters in the TTC with a close look.

Coming from a Shaman master, does his explanation really surprise you?

 

And consider that Xi Wang Mu (Queen Mother of the West) and Lao Zi are depicted at times with deer. Xi Wang Mu is said to have taught Yu the Great (think the shamanistic dance, the 'pace of Yu'). Deer antlers are symbols of longevity.

 

I had read somewhere the shamanistic origin was: The path imparted by the shaman [with deer antlers as a head dressing].

 

Edited January 4, 2013 by dawei

[dawei]

God does not exists in Dao, Gods exist in Dao xin, for they are created by the 'universal life force' which is the creator of all things; call it the big bang. Once this came into existence the Dao and Dao xin came into existence. So were Gods created and Immortality for those who practiced the Dao Xin path. The 'universal life force' was the original force behind the big bang, no God or Dao.

Thanks for that... it is the closest confirmation I've had to my idea of some singularity above Dao.

 

The Huainanzi cosmology is the best I have seen to suggest this. I call it in my translation of the section, 'the Primal Illumination':

 

 

 

天墜未形，Prior to the Opening of the Universe

馮馮翼翼，and the great outpouring

洞洞灟灟，of all life forms

故曰太昭。This is called the Primal Illumination.

道始于虛霩，Dao awoke out of this boundless void.

虛霩生宇宙，The boundless void gave rise to the cosmos;

宇宙生氣, The cosmos gave rise to [Primal] Qi.

氣有涯垠. [Primal] Qi spread [through space] as a shoreline.

. . .

[Marblehead]

天墜未形，Prior to the Opening of the Universe

馮馮翼翼，and the great outpouring

洞洞灟灟，of all life forms

故曰太昭。This is called the Primal Illumination.

道始于虛霩，Dao awoke out of this boundless void.

虛霩生宇宙，The boundless void gave rise to the cosmos;

宇宙生氣, The cosmos gave rise to [Primal] Qi.

氣有涯垠. [Primal] Qi spread [through space] as a shoreline.. . .

I like that. It does not contradict anything I hold as true.

[flowing hands]

"The word Dao simply means 'way' or 'path'. It is made up of two characters; the shaman's head wearing deer antlers and the character to walk. So we have the word which means to walk in a wise and knowing way, to find one's path through the intracacies of life by wisdom and knowledge."

 

Is that your finding for the root of the character Tao

 

It is a pity for someone who has such a narrow view. I grant you that was the definition from the outside view of the TTC. It seems to me that you have not studied the main Chapters in the TTC with a close look.

 

It most definately is! It is a shame that you do not study the ancient times of China, you would know more of the basics about the source of words and the surounding culture that these words emerged from. Deer were venerated as symbols of long life and Immortality, so were cranes. Deer antlers were worn by shamans in ancient history to help them (they believed) to connect with the divine while they danced. Shamans were the hub and source of all wisdom in that culture and at that time, so the head of a shaman wearing deer antlers combined with a left foot character bring together an ancient understanding that literally means in English 'way'. But as we know it means far more than that because the use of two such important pictogrammes coming together has boundless interpretations for our view and perspective of life. No narrow view I don't think. Most ancient cultures were shamanistic before the great perversion began, understand this and then ancient writings like the DDJ, Chuang Tzu etc will be better understood. To take a scholarly/intellectual view of such works means you will only have a limited understanding and view. Look through the lens from over 3,000 years ago, see it different!