The pursuit of happiness is the road to hell...

[Marblehead]

Are the wise always happy I wonder?

I don't know. Where is a wise man I can ask the question to?

[Protector]

I don't know. Where is a wise man I can ask the question to?

 

I'm very busy actually, so many an appointment

[Marblehead]

To smile without knowing why one has smiled.

 

To arrive without knowing how one got there.

 

Yes, Sinfest, I will call for an appointment later.

[GrandmasterP]

I knew a wise man once, he was pretty chipper most of the time.

Not always though.

[Marblehead]

Are we talking about external happiness or internal happiness?

[Marblehead]

Can we consider a chirping bird in a cage happy?

[Protector]

Birds are small, they don't need much

Them humans keep growing

[i am]

It's an interesting debate, which ShenLung is getting after. Seeing the poor, brown people of other countries slaving away for barely-livable wages, making the throw-away products we use so thoughtlessly brings out gutteral reactions.

 

But what was their life like before they had jobs? Maybe they lived in some money-free utopia, with fruit on the trees, clean water in the streams/wells, and everybody got along. Or maybe, shitty as it is, this job has actually improved their quality of life. Not up to a level of something we would call a quality life, but much better than where they were before.

 

There's got to be a better way, both you and I would say. Yes. But...what is it? I'm sure there are plenty of ideas out there. But that soulless executive who doesn't care one bit about how hard life is for his factory workers, so long as they keep his manufacturing costs down, may have significantly improved the living conditions of many poor people.

 

It's not a fact any of us like to admit to. Surely there's a way to raise the poor without putting them in dirty factories with no time off and only maybe just enough money to keep from starving. But maybe as of yet, this is the best option which has come along...

[Marblehead]

Birds are small, they don't need much

Them humans keep growing

Good try but that didn't answer the question.

[Protector]

Then I will give you the best answer. The one so many people want to hear. Yes.

[Marblehead]

Then I will give you the best answer. The one so many people want to hear. Yes.

Hehehe. Thank you for taking a stand. I would disagree though.

[Protector]

Hehehe. Thank you for taking a stand. I would disagree though.

 

I know, some people are so hardheaded that hair stops growing, or something

[Marblehead]

I know, some people are so hardheaded that hair stops growing, or something

Hehehe. Good boy!

 

Ah, taking an aggressive posture only indicates that you are unable to support the stand taken.

 

We say the bird is happy in order to justify our act of imprisoning the bird. We never asked the bird if it would rather fly free.

 

Just perhaps the bird's chirping is saying, "Let me out of this freakin' place so that I can fly and seek out my own food. That would give me great happiness."

[Protector]

Hehehe. Good boy!

 

Ah, taking an aggressive posture only indicates that you are unable to support the stand taken.

 

We say the bird is happy in order to justify our act of imprisoning the bird. We never asked the bird if it would rather fly free.

 

Just perhaps the bird's chirping is saying, "Let me out of this freakin' place so that I can fly and seek out my own food. That would give me great happiness."

 

Then I should be unhappy as well.

 

You see, when I look up at the sky and see how endless it is, I wish I could touch it but I wasn't born with wings to fly. I don't even have a limo that would take me where ever I want. My house is too small to house thousands of models that I don't have with me either.

 

There are many more things I could gain to give me more happiness, but there are too many of them for me to own them all. Even worse, I could loose what I already have. If I loose my legs, I can only play basketball in a very sad way with my very sad team of sad legless players.

 

No, I can't live like this. Take your marbles and live like that instead. Your happiness requires too much energy from me. I already have an endless source of happiness and the only one who can feel it is me. It is my own responsibility to be happy and I can do that myself. Being ripped apart chained down and put in a cage I can still have that and be happy.

I don't need anything at all to be happy.

[Marblehead]

I don't need anything at all to be happy.

Indeed. That is the bottom line, isn't it? Our inner happiness. I would suggest that it is the very rare person who can say that they are always happy with their external conditions. But inner happiness? That is a lot easier to attain.

[hydrogen]

 

just as say the consumption of meat (other sentience / beings) steals the life + joy of another

 

but we are caught in this vicious cycle, this machine where people are $ and little else.

 

I am not advocating poverty etc... just awareness, to end exploitation of peoples / animals + the environment

 

 

"If you want to awaken all of humanity,

then awaken all of yourself.

 

If you want to eliminate the suffering in the world,

then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself.

 

Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your

own self-transformation."

 

A quote from Hua Hu Jing. Another good one is

 

"Those who wish to embody the Tao should embrace all things.

 

To embrace all things means first that one holds no

anger or resistance toward any idea or thing, living

or dead, formed or formless.

 

Acceptance is the very essence of the Tao."

 

Whenever I read something that disturbs my balance (not that hard though ), I'd question myself "are you willing to donate 10% of your income or time (2 hours a day) to fight this particular perceived injustice?" So far I realized that I just wish that God would take care of the problem, and I personally am just plainly too lazy and too selfish to care enough to put into action.

[ShenLung]

Sorry, WW, I was feeling a bit grouchy yesterday.

Thinking about the vast amounts of resources that are available, proportional to the number of people is something that I've pondered for a bit, too. Living like kings and queens is a good description of what it might look like, but I have no idea of how to transform the world to that image without some very hardcore violence. Given that violence breeds more violence, that route cannot work, either. One possibility might be the development of a more enlightened capitalism, but this thought is still embryonic .. and no good means of delivering it as of yet.

 

Those people who are wealthy, or want to be wealthy in material things have to do certain things to get their wealth, and to perpetrate it. The wealthy generally want to become more wealthy. In doing this, the thoughts are spent on their money, how to preserve it, how to increase it, how to spend it. Making the world a better place is not typically tied into the mindset of wealth creation, but it would be unfair to paint all of them with the same brush. Some really do think of the lives of their workers, their families, when planning to open a new factory. The profit margin might be less, but these are not the folks who set up sweat shops in poor countries, or pay farmers pennies for coffee that will be sold at ridiculous prices to the end consumer.

 

I've flirted a bit with capitalism; it is hard work, many worries, and no guarantee of success. Living a simpler life is, well, simpler. Few needs, fewer wants, and much more inner peace works for me, and yet - All around me are the products that came into being due to someone who was seeking wealth. The electric lighting, air conditioning, computer, gas heat, refrigeration, car (old, battered, but running), even the chair that I'm sitting on came from the efforts of someone seeking wealth. If all of these things were gone tommorrow, and I were to live in the forest picking berries and cracking nuts, I would have no less happiness, and no less peace, but I think I would miss the luxuries, somewhat.

 

Thinking about the generalions that came before this one, carving out their lives without these luxuries, no air conditioning, imagine, no AC! They had no experience of it, and did not feel that they were suffering from the lack of it. Would people be better off never experiencing the modern miracles, and so not feel the lack of such things? Now we have television, the dissatisfaction machine. It shows people a distorted picture of life, bringing about a contrast of all the things that they do not have ... the entire world cannot live like the characters displayed in television shows; not even the common person in the first world nations can match the image.

 

I'm sorry, again, i've been droning on. At the end of it all, the personal discovery of happiness is something that one has to find within themselves; it seems that the only thing that can come from outside is discontent.

[GrandmasterP]

We did not have the electricity until 1958 and it was a real novelty when it arrived in our village.

My grandad said... "Well it's alright, but it'll not catch on round here"

He was wrong.

What you've never had you don't miss.

The big change came over a couple of years as people began to get TV sets, only two channels back then but once most folk had a TV people just did not socialise and neighbour as much.

Pre-TV there'd always be one or two neighbours sitting in our kitchen having tea and chatting or we'd be round at a neighbours.

That all went and life became more privatised somehow.

[Marblehead]

Whenever I read something that disturbs my balance (not that hard though ), I'd question myself "are you willing to donate 10% of your income or time (2 hours a day) to fight this particular perceived injustice?" So far I realized that I just wish that God would take care of the problem, and I personally am just plainly too lazy and too selfish to care enough to put into action.

Yeah, life gets a little more personal when we have to put our money where our mouth is.

[eye_of_the_storm]

"If you want to awaken all of humanity,

then awaken all of yourself.

 

If you want to eliminate the suffering in the world,

then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself.

 

Truly, the greatest gift you have to give is that of your

own self-transformation."

 

A quote from Hua Hu Jing. Another good one is

 

"Those who wish to embody the Tao should embrace all things.

 

To embrace all things means first that one holds no

anger or resistance toward any idea or thing, living

or dead, formed or formless.

 

Acceptance is the very essence of the Tao."

 

Whenever I read something that disturbs my balance (not that hard though ), I'd question myself "are you willing to donate 10% of your income or time (2 hours a day) to fight this particular perceived injustice?" So far I realized that I just wish that God would take care of the problem, and I personally am just plainly too lazy and too selfish to care enough to put into action.

 

I believe one can be without resistance and still move to change things... I think resistance refers to conflict within the mind which obstructs clarity / right action...

 

Mushin no shin /Zen / Samurai was developed... warrior mind... they still fought and died for whichever cause they believed in

 

Maybe we accept that life is a battlefield? and it is our duty to overcome ignorance / greed and other vices

 

just as spirituality self v self is the greatest battle ever waged

 

Transforming the self in to something finer /higher more noble / divine etc

 

One can get resist/ get caught in the web that is...all being discussed here... or one can accept the situation... not to be overcome with emotion and move in clarity to bring harmony.

 

Let us not make the mistake that non resistance and acceptance etc = doing nothing (have been there myself)

 

In terms of donating money/charities etc to make change... I don't believe so

 

that would only be addressing the symptoms and not the cause

 

While you are trying to build schools etc NATO/US will be carpet bombing

 

and so on

 

and as people are pursuing happiness... and not truth/ wisdom / justice / compassion etc nothing will change

Edited January 5, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

compassion doesn't = soft either

 

If someone has a heroin addiction the most compassionate thing someone could do may be to lock them in a room for however long until the addiction is broken.

 

"tough love"

 

Even violence could be considered compassionate depending on the situation etc ??

Edited January 5, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

everyone is waiting on the Tao?? The Way / Universe for things to happen?

 

What if we are the Tao/Way/ Universe and we are all waiting on ourselves to do something about ourselves? haha

 

Similar to the God save us! ...well what if we are God?

[Marblehead]

In terms of donating money/charities etc to make change... I don't believe so

that would only be addressing the symptoms and not the cause

 

So you think that just because we cannot address the cause we should ignore the effects? No, I will continue to contribute to charitable organizations that help those who have been left behind by most parts of society. I can't change the world but I might be able to change one person's life. If we don't try then we are part of the cause.

 

While you are trying to build schools etc NATO/US will be carpet bombing and so on

 

But NATO/US will rebuild those schools that they bomb because they were being used to house military armaments that were killing innocent people. Not everything NATO/US does is bad. They have stopped genocide in many nations around the world. I'm not saying they are squeeky clean but they are not all dirty. There are a lot of the senior leaders truely wanting peace and for the factional killing to stop. And even more than that, we don't want their problem bleeding over into ours.

 

This is why Turkey requested and has recieved defense assistance from NATO/US. Turkey feared Syria's violence would bleed over into Turkey. And it is known that Syria has chemical weapons and the government will be using it against its own people as a last straw.

 

and as people are pursuing happiness... and not truth/ wisdom / justice / compassion etc nothing will change

And I suggest that if you are not happy you will not pursue truth, wisdom, justice, compassion, etc. If you are not happy you will never find ways to help others because you will be stuck in your own little world trying to find happiness while you world crumbles down around you.

 

Only when a person is happy in knowing that they can make a difference will there be change.

[Marblehead]

compassion doesn't = soft either

I do agree with these last two posts.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Thanks for your response too Shenlung

 

Good stuff

 

I am thinking we need a.tactical response team haha

 

I think hacktivism will play a big role in the future/now also

Edited January 5, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air