meditation - not contriving the breath

[konchog uma]

I have been working in my meditation for the last few weeks on not contriving the breath at all. It has been very fruitful, and amazing to me how resting the attention on the breath causes, automatically, the diaphram or belly muscles to contrive in subtle ways. I received this insight from the B Alan Wallace retreat called introduction to dzogchen that i was listening to just recently. In it he says that monks would typically have to go on retreat to figure out how to rest their mind on the breath without contriving it. So i decided to try to be aware of my breath but from the point of view of non-action, and i can corroborate that it is very hard not to try subconsciously to regulate the breath! Especially if you have done a lot of bellows breathing, or reverse breathing, but i suspect, even if you have just done basic mediation on the breath.

 

I have had a modicum of success, nothing to speak of yet, but i have noticed that when i really let my breath go, it gets shallow and more subtle, but that it brings on a state of stillness and relaxation that is very deep. I just don't want to move at all.. like even a tiny muscle twitch would stand out.. my shoulders relax and my arms feel like lead weights, and my eyelids just freeze where they are. Its very interesting.. i just sit there in a state of nondoing, aware.

 

I have found it at times very easy to remain in a state of non-thought (which, from a dzogchen point of view, seems to be just another distraction, but anyway...) and at times i have found that letting go of the control of my breath has caused thoughts to flow very freely... i can't quite say what makes this difference, as such things are complicated in their cause and effect.. could be planets, could be what i ate for breakfast, could be anything...

 

So i am wondering has anyone else tried this? if not you should lol.. it is said to take weeks in retreat to really deprogram the mind from contriving the breath, but wow is it an amazing feeling just to sit in even a *partially* unmanipulated state. I can't claim to be completely uncontrived, but i am going to keep working on this sincerely, as the early fruits have been very sweet, and i am inspired by the idea of uncontrived meditation. Anyway, if you have tried this, do you have anything to share about it? I am curious of others experiences with this sort of "technique"

[konchog uma]

what you are talking about is still regulating the diaphram. i am trying to not do that. the result is the same, cessation of breath as it grows increasingly more subtle, but i think you are doing something different to get there.

 

good luck to you in your practice!

[konchog uma]

@malikshreds, right it sounds like the goal is the same, and it sounds like a great practice.. i do wish you success with it

 

@rv, yeah i was blown away twice by the practice, the first time by how f-ing HARD it is to do, and then when i finally had some success in it, how amazingly relaxing and tranquilizing it is to engage in. Im looking forward to seeing how deep that rabbit hole goes..

 

i really recommend anyone who feels intrigued by this to just try it next time youre meditating on the breath.. pay attention to the diaphram and belly muscles (assuming you breath from your belly) and feel how you are manipulating them subtly, and try not to. It is such a neat experiment! lol

[Creation]

I have been investigating ways to feel less closed down and dead inside. One thing that occurred to me relatively recently was the relevance of Mark Griffin speaking of the breath as a "spontaneously arising expression of the life force". So I decided to focus on the breath as just that, a spontaneously arising expression of the life force. I too realized just how much I was not-entirely-consciously controlling the breath, and got immediately results from relaxing this control. So this has become my default way to focus on the breath.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Creation

[C T]

If this exercise is maintained, in a few years, the breath will be barely perceptible. Mine is already very slow, and feels very light. Got my pulse down to about 60 now, even with activity. Was 80 not too long ago. Occasionally, it will still go crazy, like when i go driving at high speeds, and the adrenaline pump kicks up a few notches, other than this, mostly sedate nowadays. Some nights my partner would have to watch close just to see if i am still breathing, that kind of way.

 

I do a similar practice. Apologies, but i cant speak more on it.

 

I think you are moving along just fine, friend with new name

 

Percolating's such a nice description, RV

[C T]

Afterthought: I was diagnosed with a heart condition known as SVT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supraventricular_tachycardia back in 95. Doctors said it was genetic, and that i should/could never again attempt strenuous activities, plus, they advised medication for the rest of my life.

 

Like a good lad, i listened to the experts, took the pills, managed the condition as expected, but later, sickened by this new dependency, i realized that this was not my life plan (to be on drugs indefinitely) -- that was when i decided to delve deeper into meditative practices.

 

After about a year of non-activity (except work), including full-time celibacy (even though i had a partner then) and practicing certain meditative techniques which my Tibetan teacher ascribed, i felt confident enough to stop medication. Enhanced by the release, i eased back slowly into sporting activity (badminton nut that i am), gradually building back stamina and speed, enough to eventually play top-level competitions. Back then, the episodes would recur off and on, but the frequency of occurrence lengthened. From maybe once every 3 weeks, to once every 3 months, then 5 months, and after about 3 years from that first rush to the hospital, the condition has so far never recurred.

 

During the first few months after the medication had been abandoned, whenever the condition took hold, i found that with mindful breath manipulation, i could willfully overpower the irregular heartbeats, returning the arrhythmia back to normality. There was only one occasion, actually during a break at a badminton training session, that a massive SVT came on which i just could not manipulate nor control. It was really scary then -- heart-rate shot from about 90 to like 200 bpm, gasping for breath, cold sweat and all of that. Fortunately a doctor friend was also at that particular session, and rendered assistance immediately.

 

Its been years and years now since the last episode. For me, its kudos to my teacher whose invaluable advise released me from a potentially debilitating heart condition... more than this, from the courage and wisdom gained from dispensing with the reliance on medication, my heart now is even healthier than before, moving and beating in rhythm with the mind, and the body, as a whole.

 

I still play badminton competitively, swim, speed-drive, trek cliffs in the summer, fish, have regular love sessions (ahem..)

 

Just wanted to share this with you (after i read about the injuries to your legs). With time, i am sure you will make great progress, on an overall level.

 

Peace and love!

[Aaron]

So i am wondering has anyone else tried this?

 

With practice you can reach a point where you don't pay attention to your breathing. I discussed this briefly in my Introduction to Silent Mind Meditation awhile back. It takes some time. For most focusing on breathing is the easiest way to reach a silent-mind state, but at some point it does become a distraction, because you are subtly still thinking of your breathing. In the end you have to let the thought of breathing go, which can become difficult, (some people even hyperventilate when they do this), but if you continue to let the conscious thought of breathing go, eventually you can begin your meditation without having to focus on anything, but simply entering a silent-mind state.

 

(Note- I would suggest not paying attention to the effects on the diaphragm and instead letting these things go as well. In the end they are just more distractions.)

 

Good luck with your practice. It sounds like you're on the right track. Remember practice is the key.

 

Aaron

Edited January 5, 2013 by Aaron

[thelerner]

I'm moving in the opposite direction..more contrived breath . I recognize this isn't where I want to end up, but I want to spend one month, on deeper slower breathing. Maybe its a nostalgic thing. See how far I can push it in 4 weeks then drop the practice and sink back into natural. I noticed and been a little disturbed by how shallow my breathing was during meditation last month. Maybe I shouldn't care.

 

Still I'm committed to one month. I'll add after 15 or 30 minutes I drop the long breath and settle into what ever my body wants. If I can hit close to a 40-40 breath cycle, I may go into the programs 3 cycled breath work of inhale, long hold, exhale.

Edited January 5, 2013 by thelerner

[C T]

Americans may not be familiar with badminton. Here's a peep at how concentrative freneticism becomes the highpoint of every competitive event.

 

[Aaron]

Afterthought: I was diagnosed with a heart condition known as SVT http://en.wikipedia....lar_tachycardia back in 95. Doctors said it was genetic, and that i should/could never again attempt strenuous activities, plus, they advised medication for the rest of my life.

 

Like a good lad, i listened to the experts, took the pills, managed the condition as expected, but later, sickened by this new dependency, i realized that this was not my life plan (to be on drugs indefinitely) -- that was when i decided to delve deeper into meditative practices.

 

After about a year of non-activity (except work), including full-time celibacy (even though i had a partner then) and practicing certain meditative techniques which my Tibetan teacher ascribed, i felt confident enough to stop medication. Enhanced by the release, i eased back slowly into sporting activity (badminton nut that i am), gradually building back stamina and speed, enough to eventually play top-level competitions. Back then, the episodes would recur off and on, but the frequency of occurrence lengthened. From maybe once every 3 weeks, to once every 3 months, then 5 months, and after about 3 years from that first rush to the hospital, the condition has so far never recurred.

 

During the first few months after the medication had been abandoned, whenever the condition took hold, i found that with mindful breath manipulation, i could willfully overpower the irregular heartbeats, returning the arrhythmia back to normality. There was only one occasion, actually during a break at a badminton training session, that a massive SVT came on which i just could not manipulate nor control. It was really scary then -- heart-rate shot from about 90 to like 200 bpm, gasping for breath, cold sweat and all of that. Fortunately a doctor friend was also at that particular session, and rendered assistance immediately.

 

Its been years and years now since the last episode. For me, its kudos to my teacher whose invaluable advise released me from a potentially debilitating heart condition... more than this, from the courage and wisdom gained from dispensing with the reliance on medication, my heart now is even healthier than before, moving and beating in rhythm with the mind, and the body, as a whole.

 

I still play badminton competitively, swim, speed-drive, trek cliffs in the summer, fish, have regular love sessions (ahem..)

 

Just wanted to share this with you (after i read about the injuries to your legs). With time, i am sure you will make great progress, on an overall level.

 

Peace and love!

 

Great story! I'm happy to see that you found an alternative to modern "medicine". I ended up the emergency room recently because of severe stomach pain and the nurse commented that my heart rate was very low and asked if that was normal, I asked her, "well is it?" Anyways, I credit it to meditation. (It ended up being Irritable Bowel Syndrome.)

 

Aaron

[thetaoiseasy]

. oops

Edited January 5, 2013 by thetaoiseasy

[Tibetan_Ice]

With practice you can reach a point where you don't pay attention to your breathing. I discussed this briefly in my Introduction to Silent Mind Meditation awhile back. It takes some time. For most focusing on breathing is the easiest way to reach a silent-mind state, but at some point it does become a distraction, because you are subtly still thinking of your breathing. In the end you have to let the thought of breathing go, which can become difficult, (some people even hyperventilate when they do this), but if you continue to let the conscious thought of breathing go, eventually you can begin your meditation without having to focus on anything, but simply entering a silent-mind state.

 

(Note- I would suggest not paying attention to the effects on the diaphragm and instead letting these things go as well. In the end they are just more distractions.)

 

Good luck with your practice. It sounds like you're on the right track. Remember practice is the key.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron

There you go again. Imposing your views on others. You just have no idea do you? Radical lessez faire.

 

Just let go of everything and that will take you there. To emptiness. Well, you are wrong.

 

You did not ever perceive emptiness, nor do you even know how to get there.

 

Your practice, what you've described will lead you straight into the substrate consciousness where you will stagnate, fall into laxity and dullness, mistake it for emptiness and think you've accomplished something. You've accomplished nothing.

 

The acid test is like Alan Wallace says. The experience is authentic if it liberates. No liberation? No awakening.

 

If you took a moment to read the many buddhist books that are out there, you know the ones I'm talking about.. the ones with maps. But then, you wouldn't know that. You think maps are bad. Well radical rationalism will get you nowhere. Entropy is your elixir. It all falls apart.

 

There is a reason why people follow teachings and maps. It is because some people have learned certain methods and ways based on their experiences, and they have the capacity and intention to convey that knowledge to others. We should be grateful that other people have written maps. Knowledge is a benefit, not a detriment as you so foolishly have been supporting in your radical posts.

 

A silent mind state is not emptiness, it is not awakening, nor is it anything useful. As a matter of fact, it is regarded by most Buddhists as intellectually damaging. It makes you stupid. You are a prisoner of your radical belief system. Why don't you try letting go of that for a change and follow somebody else's map? You know, the Buddhists who become rainbow bodies. The ones that draw pictures of cows on the wall and then milk them, producing real milk. The ones who have realized true emptiness.

 

I have seen other posts of yours where you declare that you have realized emptiness. I do not believe you. I'm sure others here don't either. From a few of your posts I would say that you don't even believe yourself. But, if you believe that sitting in silence is emptiness, then perhaps you have realized silence. But that is not emptiness.

 

Had you realized emptiness, you could walk though walls, you could turn into a rainbow body at will. You could manifest forms at will. You could tell me what I look like. You would know your previous lives. After all, life is only a dream. It's all space and light, smoke and mirrors.

 

Instead of trying to spread your brand of enlightment, your erroneous methodology, your bad advice, why don't you learn about the proper progression of events that occur during breath meditation?

 

If you had proper breath meditation techniques, you would have learned that by calming the mind, the breathing slows, the mind calms even more and then the breath seems almost nonexistant. It lets go all by itself without any conscious effort of letting go. At that point, you switch from the 'learning sign' -nimitta to the counterpoint sign (which may look like a star, a sun, a ball of light). After you gain stability in that, the counterpoint sign engulfs you and your coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. The substrate consciousness is that which continues from life to life. The substrate consciousness is the alaya. That is the silent state that you are trying to teach everyone to remain in. But it is not so silent. It's not even not the final goal. If you stay in the alaya too long, your awareness will degrade and morph into dullness and laxity. Beyond the substrate is Primordial Awareness. The realization of that is the realization of emptiness..

 

The proper procedure is not to "let the conscious thought of breathing go" as you suggest. The proper procedure is to cultivate attention on the breath, and sustain it. Vitakka and Vicara. It is not a letting go. The letting go, the dissolution will occur if you follow the proper steps.

 

And when you say "eventually you can begin your meditation without having to focus on anything, but simply entering a silent-mind state." this is not a goal, it is not a good thing. You've trained yourself to sit in dullness and laxity, probably stilted your intelligence and cut short your spiritual development.

 

Now, I'm not going to educate you as to the proper Buddhist breathing meditaiton techinques. But I will say this. Silence is not a goal as it pertains to "no thoughts". Part of what you will discover as your progress in proper techinique is clarity, vividness of thoughts. Absence of thoughts is not a goal as there are always thoughts, or forms. But when the center of your awareness becomes very clear and you can see each thought, clear and separate, dissolve into the luminous space, you are getting closer.

 

You know, nobody ever got entlightened by your method, just letting go. Letting go is a form of aversion. Sustained mindfulness is the key. Sustained awareness. Neither averting nor grasping. It requires relaxation and sustained attention. 24/7. That is the goal. That is what most all teachings teach. I suggest you look into it. Your "Silent Mind Meditation" is bad advice and you should seriously consider the effects of what you write on others. Or if you insist on pushing your brand of spiritualism, then maybe instead of copping out and avoiding revealing your wisdom from realizing emptiness as you continually do, you could tell the rest of us about the fruits of your brand of practice so that we may assess the validity of your claims, especially the realization of what you call "emptiness". (Actually, I'm not all that interested in hearing about it anyway because I've seen the fruits of your practice in most of your posts.).

 

Good luck in your journey. I think you'll need it.

 

TI

 

For anyone else who is interested in learning proper breath meditation I would suggest reading Shaila Catherine, Ajahn Brahm, Alan Wallace, Dudjom Lingpa, anything on Dzogchen preliminary practices or any other of the serious Buddhists with maps to follow.

[RiverSnake]

I have noted recently in my own practice that there is a difference between Emptiness Meditation and Focused meditation....albeit they can have similar results. I can go into the void easily....but when it comes to concentrating my mind I have difficulty....been experimenting with some basic concentration techniques like holding one idea or image in your mind to the exclusion of all others recently.....it helps strengthen ones concentration and thus allows one to "watch the breath" without distraction. In a way it's the complete opposite of emptiness meditation but I think they complement each other quite well.

 

My 2 cents, peace

Edited January 5, 2013 by OldGreen

[konchog uma]

If this exercise is maintained, in a few years, the breath will be barely perceptible. Mine is already very slow, and feels very light. Got my pulse down to about 60 now, even with activity. Was 80 not too long ago. Occasionally, it will still go crazy, like when i go driving at high speeds, and the adrenaline pump kicks up a few notches, other than this, mostly sedate nowadays. Some nights my partner would have to watch close just to see if i am still breathing, that kind of way.

 

I do a similar practice. Apologies, but i cant speak more on it.

 

I think you are moving along just fine, friend with new name

 

Percolating's such a nice description, RV

 

yeah i am definitely going to stick with this... and i hear you about talking about personal practices in public... i never do that, but this isnt secret or personal or tantric or anything so i thought i would share, in the hope that people benefit

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron

There you go again. Imposing your views on others. You just have no idea do you? Radical lessez faire.

 

Just let go of everything and that will take you there. To emptiness. Well, you are wrong.

 

You did not ever perceive emptiness, nor do you even know how to get there.

 

Your practice, what you've described will lead you straight into the substrate consciousness where you will stagnate, fall into laxity and dullness, mistake it for emptiness and think you've accomplished something. You've accomplished nothing.

 

The acid test is like Alan Wallace says. The experience is authentic if it liberates. No liberation? No awakening.

 

If you took a moment to read the many buddhist books that are out there, you know the ones I'm talking about.. the ones with maps. But then, you wouldn't know that. You think maps are bad. Well radical rationalism will get you nowhere. Entropy is your elixir. It all falls apart.

 

There is a reason why people follow teachings and maps. It is because some people have learned certain methods and ways based on their experiences, and they have the capacity and intention to convey that knowledge to others. We should be grateful that other people have written maps. Knowledge is a benefit, not a detriment as you so foolishly have been supporting in your radical posts.

 

A silent mind state is not emptiness, it is not awakening, nor is it anything useful. As a matter of fact, it is regarded by most Buddhists as intellectually damaging. It makes you stupid. You are a prisoner of your radical belief system. Why don't you try letting go of that for a change and follow somebody else's map? You know, the Buddhists who become rainbow bodies. The ones that draw pictures of cows on the wall and then milk them, producing real milk. The ones who have realized true emptiness.

 

I have seen other posts of yours where you declare that you have realized emptiness. I do not believe you. I'm sure others here don't either. From a few of your posts I would say that you don't even believe yourself. But, if you believe that sitting in silence is emptiness, then perhaps you have realized silence. But that is not emptiness.

 

Had you realized emptiness, you could walk though walls, you could turn into a rainbow body at will. You could manifest forms at will. You could tell me what I look like. You would know your previous lives. After all, life is only a dream. It's all space and light, smoke and mirrors.

 

Instead of trying to spread your brand of enlightment, your erroneous methodology, your bad advice, why don't you learn about the proper progression of events that occur during breath meditation?

 

If you had proper breath meditation techniques, you would have learned that by calming the mind, the breathing slows, the mind calms even more and then the breath seems almost nonexistant. It lets go all by itself without any conscious effort of letting go. At that point, you switch from the 'learning sign' -nimitta to the counterpoint sign (which may look like a star, a sun, a ball of light). After you gain stability in that, the counterpoint sign engulfs you and your coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. The substrate consciousness is that which continues from life to life. The substrate consciousness is the alaya. That is the silent state that you are trying to teach everyone to remain in. But it is not so silent. It's not even not the final goal. If you stay in the alaya too long, your awareness will degrade and morph into dullness and laxity. Beyond the substrate is Primordial Awareness. The realization of that is the realization of emptiness..

 

The proper procedure is not to "let the conscious thought of breathing go" as you suggest. The proper procedure is to cultivate attention on the breath, and sustain it. Vitakka and Vicara. It is not a letting go. The letting go, the dissolution will occur if you follow the proper steps.

 

And when you say "eventually you can begin your meditation without having to focus on anything, but simply entering a silent-mind state." this is not a goal, it is not a good thing. You've trained yourself to sit in dullness and laxity, probably stilted your intelligence and cut short your spiritual development.

 

Now, I'm not going to educate you as to the proper Buddhist breathing meditaiton techinques. But I will say this. Silence is not a goal as it pertains to "no thoughts". Part of what you will discover as your progress in proper techinique is clarity, vividness of thoughts. Absence of thoughts is not a goal as there are always thoughts, or forms. But when the center of your awareness becomes very clear and you can see each thought, clear and separate, dissolve into the luminous space, you are getting closer.

 

You know, nobody ever got entlightened by your method, just letting go. Letting go is a form of aversion. Sustained mindfulness is the key. Sustained awareness. Neither averting nor grasping. It requires relaxation and sustained attention. 24/7. That is the goal. That is what most all teachings teach. I suggest you look into it. Your "Silent Mind Meditation" is bad advice and you should seriously consider the effects of what you write on others. Or if you insist on pushing your brand of spiritualism, then maybe instead of copping out and avoiding revealing your wisdom from realizing emptiness as you continually do, you could tell the rest of us about the fruits of your brand of practice so that we may assess the validity of your claims, especially the realization of what you call "emptiness". (Actually, I'm not all that interested in hearing about it anyway because I've seen the fruits of your practice in most of your posts.).

 

Good luck in your journey. I think you'll need it.

 

TI

 

For anyone else who is interested in learning proper breath meditation I would suggest reading Shaila Catherine, Ajahn Brahm, Alan Wallace, Dudjom Lingpa, anything on Dzogchen preliminary practices or any other of the serious Buddhists with maps to follow.

 

Hmm... ideology has run amock in this post. You've been told 'tis so, so 'tis so, is it not?

 

Obviously since my experience deviates from what you've been taught, it has to be false. Quit listening to the truth and discover it for yourself.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Oh and in case you missed it in my signature, can you recognize your response here...

 

"The last and favorite resort of the clergy when they are questioned too closely is: their questioners simply don't understand; they are "uninstructed and amateurish." "Unless you accept our interpretation of the texts," the layman is told, "you obviously do not understand them. And if you don't understand them, you have no right to question our interpretation of them!"

 

And so the layman is put in his place. The guarded degree, the closed corporation, the technical vocabulary, these are the inner redoubt, the inviolable stronghold of usurped authority. Locked safe within the massive and forbidding walls of institution and formality lies what the Egyptians called "the king's secret," the secret of controlling the past." - Hugh Nibley

Edited January 5, 2013 by Aaron

[thetaoiseasy]

Here are some small ideas for people to reach "non-contrivance" from my personal experience. I may be talking to the choir, though. The best way to reach non-contrivance is to either imitate it, or to start from contrivance.

 

1. Alter between action and non-action. Breath 10 intentional breaths, then follow with 10 "free" breaths.

2. Inhale and exhale, then halt your breath for 10 seconds. Then let your body take the next few breaths. Observe. Your body knows how breath properly.

3. Pore breathing is a very effective way to train. For you, place your intention at the upper dan-tien. On inhale, your pores open and air enters through all the pores in your body. On exhale, your pores close and noxious gases are expelled through the pores. In my experience, I find pore breathing the best way to align the internal and external reality of your being.

4. Use physical motions. It's much easier to reach emptiness with hand coordination. Expand the ball with your hands on inhale, condense the ball between your hands on exhale. This is a common qigong exercise you probably know of. The idea here is use the hand coordination for 10 breaths, then without for the next 10 breaths.

5. Hollow your armpits, like you are holding a tennis ball between the armpit. Open your fingers. Drop your shoulders

6. An important point is to learn how to use breath to coordinate upward and downward flow of energy. Typically, on inhale, the energy rises from the perineum to the crown, on exhale it descends from the crown to the perineum. If you can make this an energetic exercise, you quickly forget about the breath. Because after you use the breath to guide the energy for a few repetitions, you can begin using the energy to guide the breath. Further attainment is when you can't tell between whether the breath is moving the energy, or the energy the breath.

7. You may use mantras to prepare your intention. For example, you can say a simple affirmation, "my respiration is soft, gentle, but deep." Repeat it a few times and see how your body responds to that intention.

8. Practice the inhale-exhale-pause series. The pause is the most importance, in my experience. As you gain proficiency, the pause will extend longer and longer. The more effective the pause, the more natural breath that ensues.

Edited January 6, 2013 by thetaoiseasy

[ChiDragon]

All these are non-contriving....???

[thetaoiseasy]

Yep, I like to fake things.

 

All these are non-contriving....???

[konchog uma]

thanks thetaoiseasy... what i am doing is just trying to use no muscular effort nor manipulate the breath (making it slower, longer, deeper etc) in any way. Its pretty straightforward. Just letting my breath happen naturally.

 

this morning i was slowing my breath down with my mind, just intending it mentally to be slower, but still not manipulating it physically.. it might sound like splitting hairs but what i mean is that i was able to maintain a sense of non-contrivance physically while still being able to affect the rate of breathing with my mentality. It was interesting. Different from how i usually slow my breathing down...

[ChiDragon]

thanks thetaoiseasy... what i am doing is just trying to use no muscular effort nor manipulate the breath (making it slower, longer, deeper etc) in any way. Its pretty straightforward. Just letting my breath happen naturally.

 

this morning i was slowing my breath down with my mind, just intending it mentally to be slower, but still not manipulating it physically..

 

I am just curious. What do you think that you have accomplished....???

[konchog uma]

I am just curious. What do you think that you have accomplished....???

 

well so far, i have lessened the habitual tendency to manipulate the breath. It has become easier in the few weeks i have worked with this technique to just sit and watch my breathing without trying to slow it down or deepen it etc.

[konchog uma]

Private, or secret, breath practices? Interesting.

 

its not that i do anything that is sworn to secrecy.. i haven't reached that stage of my studies and practice yet. But its that i have been advised, and found it wise, not to talk about my cultivation practices in a public place. Of course i break that rule from time to time, but i still understand when people don't want to share..

[joeblast]

Contrived or not, the practice-exercises are always to be done fully utilizing the force of awareness. (Always mindful, yet not necessarily notating phenomenon.) The best method to non-contrivance is through the rote method of contrivance - by taking the time to analyze the mechanics and interactions of the breath mechanisms, we can streamline them to a high efficiency state.

 

We all know that when something gets repetitive, it gets boring - ok, now think deeper, what is the source of boredom? Correlate to applying the awareness to the mechanisms of breath and what is happening is the subconscious processes are being programmed. Hence my idea of "establishing breath protocol" - re-wiring the subconscious to breathe in a very efficient manner. Like playing guitar or badminton, when in good practice it flows and the subconsciously-trained more readily manifests.

 

This is what the rote method towards non contrivance establishes - the brain builds neural networks upon habit and experience - so in effect, non-contrivance is leveraging that habit and experience. If you've put in the time analyzing and practicing, leveraging becomes as easy as turning one's hands over.

 

It is similar to your mom, endless talker that she is, her voice starting to sound like the teachers and parents on Peanuts, if you're not paying good attention to what she's saying. Your brain gets enough of a signal and begins to attenuate it. Apply this concept to meditation, the breath structures, the energy, and these phenomena will be classified and attenuated by the brain.

 

Toss in the feedback-mechanisms and how it affects meditation and it becomes apparent the need to do the work in the first place - grab the matrix of feedbacks by the horns and bring the force of awareness about it for a gong or two's time, done sincerely, there's no way you will fail.

 

Sure you can non-contrive, but prepare, season, cook the meal, set the table before eating. Its a better meal than nuking something from the freezer

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hmm... ideology has run amock in this post. You've been told 'tis so, so 'tis so, is it not?

 

Obviously since my experience deviates from what you've been taught, it has to be false. Quit listening to the truth and discover it for yourself.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Oh and in case you missed it in my signature, can you recognize your response here...

 

"The last and favorite resort of the clergy when they are questioned too closely is: their questioners simply don't understand; they are "uninstructed and amateurish." "Unless you accept our interpretation of the texts," the layman is told, "you obviously do not understand them. And if you don't understand them, you have no right to question our interpretation of them!"

 

And so the layman is put in his place. The guarded degree, the closed corporation, the technical vocabulary, these are the inner redoubt, the inviolable stronghold of usurped authority. Locked safe within the massive and forbidding walls of institution and formality lies what the Egyptians called "the king's secret," the secret of controlling the past." - Hugh Nibley

Hi Aaron,

I can see it is almost useless talking to you. You don't seem to get it.

 

YES, you have discovered a black hole, that which most inauthentic and authentic psychics have realized. If there is no way to validate a premise, you can tell someone anything you'd like and they can neither prove nor disprove it. Like telling someone about a previous life that they may have had. You can tell them absolutely anything and they can't dispute it as there is no means to verify or validate it. So yes, you hold up your experience like the unfathomable black hole and then lord it over others in your condescending attitude and offer it as proof that your practice is authentic. You offer no evidence, nor demonstrate any behaviour that would support your "experience" other than the fact that you merely state it.

 

You also seem to think that you are the only person who can think for themselves.

 

You do realize that your statement has an implication that is not only grossly insulting but not logical.

You say:

"Obviously since my experience deviates from what you've been taught, it has to be false. Quit listening to the truth and discover it for yourself."

 

You know, one of the first things I learned when I got my philosophy degree is that "truth is where you find it". Just because someone claims to be a such-and-such doesn't mean that what comes out of their mouth is the truth. And here you've resorted to that classic foolishness in an effort to claim authority. But you claim a false authority. Just because you think you've discovered 'emptiness' does not mean that everything that comes out of your mouth is true.

 

I am not only the cumulation of "what I've been taught". And you are not only the result of your experiences. Do you think you are the only person who has had experiences?

 

In order to think outside of the box, one must first have a box.

 

The method that you 'teach', the method of "letting go" with which you have arrived at your experiences has been known by others who have had the experiences and they have said that that method is a pitfall, a downfall, not a valid method. For, if you had arrived at the final experience that those others whom have written about it have, you would have achieved the same results as they have. Therefore I conclude that your experience of emptiness is a delusion.

 

There is a fine line between imagination, psychotic delusion and reality. Quit supporting the former and get with the latter..

 

TI

 

P.S. And quit quoting me crap statements about political organizations, clergy or institutions. You may have a personal vendeta against organized anything, but I do not. There is value and non-value in every conglomerate.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Tibetan_Ice

[ChiDragon]

well so far, i have lessened the habitual tendency to manipulate the breath. It has become easier in the few weeks i have worked with this technique to just sit and watch my breathing without trying to slow it down or deepen it etc.

 

Okay, my question now is do you think that was the right approach. Without trying to slow it down or deepen it, you don't think that you are defeating the purpose of this practice(Chi Kung).....???

Edited January 7, 2013 by ChiDragon