Jetsun Posted January 7, 2013 Okay, my question now is do you think that was the right approach. Without trying to slow it down or deepen it, you don't think that you are defeating the purpose of this practice(Chi Kung).....??? Contrivance comes from the ego, it is pretty difficult to overcome the tyranny of the ego doing a method driven by the ego itself as it by nature wants to survive and won't do something leading to its own destruction, so unless your contrived method leads to non-contrivance and your meditation leads to non-meditation it won't get you anywhere except maybe give you some minor health benefits. Which is why people like Liu I Ming say all contrived methods such as forcing the breath are useless for obtaining the Tao. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 7, 2013 Okay, my question now is do you think that was the right approach. Without trying to slow it down or deepen it, you don't think that you are defeating the purpose of this practice(Chi Kung).....??? its not a qigong practice. the purpose of the practice is to do exactly what i described. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 7, 2013 Contrivance comes from the ego, it is pretty difficult to overcome the tyranny of the ego doing a method driven by the ego itself as it by nature wants to survive and won't do something leading to its own destruction, so unless your contrived method leads to non-contrivance and your meditation leads to non-meditation it won't get you anywhere except maybe give you some minor health benefits. Which is why people like Liu I Ming say all contrived methods such as forcing the breath are useless for obtaining the Tao. right Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 7, 2013 its not a qigong practice. the purpose of the practice is to do exactly what i described. Okay,....!!! Then, why did you relate breathing into your meditation in the first place as stated in the title of this thread......??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 7, 2013 Okay,....!!! Then, why did you relate breathing into your meditation in the first place as stated in the title of this thread......??? because its a meditation that deals with non-contrivance of the breath. As stated in the title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 8, 2013 yeah good luck letting go of those.. "holdings" i like that, good way to say it. i found that it lead me to very similar findings, realizing my own holdings has been part of my process today was a mess, only sat 20 minutes this morning, skipped out on sitting at the sangha tonight, busy day. Ah well. Tomorrow... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 12, 2013 Anyone reached the part where the breath disappears yet? You will never hear from this person......... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 12, 2013 you might like this book malikshreds: Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm he talks about cessation of pulse and respiration 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 12, 2013 You will never hear from this person......... Unless of course thhey happen to post while not meditating I've described phenomena that happen when the flow of air drops below the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways - you really have to have coherent mechanics in order to sustain such a state, otherwise hypoxia comes on fast and you will be forced to create signal chains again. Like with full lotus, there's no fakin' the funk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted January 12, 2013 I have been working in my meditation for the last few weeks on not contriving the breath at all. It has been very fruitful, and amazing to me how resting the attention on the breath causes, automatically, the diaphram or belly muscles to contrive in subtle ways. I received this insight from the B Alan Wallace retreat called introduction to dzogchen that i was listening to just recently. In it he says that monks would typically have to go on retreat to figure out how to rest their mind on the breath without contriving it. So i decided to try to be aware of my breath but from the point of view of non-action, and i can corroborate that it is very hard not to try subconsciously to regulate the breath! Especially if you have done a lot of bellows breathing, or reverse breathing, but i suspect, even if you have just done basic mediation on the breath. I have had a modicum of success, nothing to speak of yet, but i have noticed that when i really let my breath go, it gets shallow and more subtle, but that it brings on a state of stillness and relaxation that is very deep. I just don't want to move at all.. like even a tiny muscle twitch would stand out.. my shoulders relax and my arms feel like lead weights, and my eyelids just freeze where they are. Its very interesting.. i just sit there in a state of nondoing, aware. I have found it at times very easy to remain in a state of non-thought (which, from a dzogchen point of view, seems to be just another distraction, but anyway...) and at times i have found that letting go of the control of my breath has caused thoughts to flow very freely... i can't quite say what makes this difference, as such things are complicated in their cause and effect.. could be planets, could be what i ate for breakfast, could be anything... So i am wondering has anyone else tried this? if not you should lol.. it is said to take weeks in retreat to really deprogram the mind from contriving the breath, but wow is it an amazing feeling just to sit in even a *partially* unmanipulated state. I can't claim to be completely uncontrived, but i am going to keep working on this sincerely, as the early fruits have been very sweet, and i am inspired by the idea of uncontrived meditation. Anyway, if you have tried this, do you have anything to share about it? I am curious of others experiences with this sort of "technique" Y'know, i seem to recall our discussions last year to detail the breathing patterns and autonomous breathing as opposed to conscious awareness of autonomous breathing... anyways, it's been since about last year around april that i'd done anything with any mantras, mudras, or kujiin... i should open up the old emails and find out where i left off we had some good discussions i think. i kind of miss that. perhaps i need to find out a way of taking on a full time teacher (see what i did there? ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 13, 2013 yes good discussions.. good luck with finding a teacher. you can always send me questions about kuji-in. no guarantee i will have an answer, but i'll address it in the most helpful way i can Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted January 16, 2013 soon as weather starts warming up, you bet i will... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 17, 2013 Y'know, i seem to recall our discussions last year to detail the breathing patterns and autonomous breathing as opposed to conscious awareness of autonomous breathing... anyways, it's been since about last year around april that i'd done anything with any mantras, mudras, or kujiin... i should open up the old emails and find out where i left off we had some good discussions i think. i kind of miss that. perhaps i need to find out a way of taking on a full time teacher (see what i did there? ) That's where my concept of "breath protocol" came from - it is basically referring to what your subconscious is programmed with in regards to breath mechanics. By mindfully asserting your will over the mechanics, it slowly reprograms your subconscious. Do it enough and you have effectively rewritten it - and like turning a prayer wheel, you mindfully do the practice every day, and give your new habit-energy more angular momentum, ingraining the correct breath patterns more fully. So you really only get truly coherent breath mechanics by putting in the time, you truly only reprogram the subconscious processes by putting in the time, you are only able to truly let go and have the inertia from your gongfu of putting in the time on breath mechanics carry/fuel the meditation by "just letting go" Sure one can just let go, but it will not be as efficient and productive as if one has put the time and concentration in. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted January 17, 2013 I like that, thanks! You bring up a very great point that, in spite of how obvious it is (at least it is to me now), pulling back on the toy car makes it zip forward real fast lolJust dont keep "reprogramming the subconscious" after you hear it "click-click-click-ing" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) ah, but the car has a more quickly reached maximal extent - since your intent doesnt reprogram as directly as pulling the car back, the analogy does have its limits of applicability. of course, you have to pull the car back to charge it to go forward - luckily the body can both charge and go forward simultaneously Edited January 17, 2013 by joeblast 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted January 17, 2013 yeah... sometimes in "dumbing it down" to make it easier for *some* others to grasp, you wind up throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
