Fascism + Solutions

[joeblast]

presented with no comment too much to replicate, worth a perusal if not a study

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-06/guest-post-all-well

 

 

related,

 

http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/mortgage-purchase-applications-increase-2-but-remain-numb-to-fed-easing/

 

ok, two word comment that I've said many a time: government distortion.

Edited February 7, 2013 by joeblast

[eye_of_the_storm]

Such direct democracy cuts both ways. Look at California. Irresponsible people will vote themselves benefits, bread and circus, until the money's gone and they're bankrupt. Other times corporations have funneled billions into swaying public opinion there, often through fake grass root funding.

 

With power to vote there should be some level of understanding. Public money for well publicized non partisan policy papers that clearly lay out costs and benefits. I am often embarrassed by the crooks and low lifes we elect here in Illinois. I'm talking convicted criminals, people on death beds who'll give the job to there kids, literally mentally ill people, its a joke. The newspapers and media have failed to educate the public.

 

Yes I agree with you there.

 

I think a solution to part of that problem ^ is to have 0 forced welfare.

 

People will naturally form charities etc... as they already do

 

+ same with hospitals + education etc

 

Looking into the past I have found that these services were much more affordable before government etc got involved.

 

... so tax can be dropped significantly and people can use that money to support themselves better.

 

+ regarding welfare... subsidies totally scrap.

 

One of the reasons organic food is more expensive than chemically sprayed GMO etc... is because of the heavy subsidies the Oil Cos etc get...

 

Which ends up undercutting the organic farmer etc

 

Same also regarding Oil Cos + Petrol... V Solar Power

 

If people weren't being taxed so heavily to subsidies Oil Cos + friends... they could easily afford Solar + healthy organic food etc.

 

---

 

With there being no subsidies probably would mean no special interest groups / lobbies.

 

I think...

 

With government officials... pay is set... to the national average.

 

No special retirement incentives...

 

No donations etc...

 

I think tax corporations ^^^% once they go over a certain threshold to prevent monopolies.

 

Allow small local / unique businesses to flourish

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[joeblast]

 

Same also regarding Oil Cos + Petrol... V Solar Power

 

If people weren't being taxed so heavily to subsidies Oil Cos + friends... they could easily afford Solar + healthy organic food etc.

 

 

Gotta disagree on this point. The ONLY reason most solar/"green energy" is "affordable" is because of the stupendous amount of subsidies given to the industry. Why do you think so many (solyndra et al) have failed? Because the government cannot create demand. They can incentivize things, like offering you tax credits and such, but they cannot create demand for a product. Its not a matter of "if you build it, they will come," which has been the thinking thus far. And by any rational observation, oil and gas are mispriced on the high end as things stand - all because of government pushing.

 

Giving a tax break for R&D is not quite so much subsidy as it is explicit money-handout for the "green" industry. Oil companies pay just about more tax money than any other industry - cant say the same for green industry, because it is a net drain and not a net contributor by any stretch of the imagination. What we have with the green industry is the government up and trying to create an industry and push it before reality is ready for it. And the cumulative effects of the government's myriad market interventions merely distort the market signals that are relied upon for business planning, otherwise the case for showing massive oversubsidization of green energies would be even easier to make!

Edited February 7, 2013 by joeblast

[Marblehead]

I once would have called myself an Anarchist haha... MH / soon realized that was far too idealist.

 

Nothing wrong with having ideas even if they are unachievable. Gives us something to shoot for (at if it were politicians).

[eye_of_the_storm]

indeed

[gendao]

Such direct democracy cuts both ways. Look at California. Irresponsible people will vote themselves benefits, bread and circus, until the money's gone and they're bankrupt. Other times corporations have funneled billions into swaying public opinion there, often through fake grass root funding.

 

With power to vote there should be some level of understanding. Public money for well publicized non partisan policy papers that clearly lay out costs and benefits. I am often embarrassed by the crooks and low lifes we elect here in Illinois. I'm talking convicted criminals, people on death beds who'll give the job to there kids, literally mentally ill people, its a joke. The newspapers and media have failed to educate the public.

That is known as "tyranny of the masses/mob rule' - the growing risk of a true democracy that progressively slides down the slippery slope into its lowest (self-serving) common denominator...

The founding fathers were intellectual elites who knew their history. They knew that a democracy was unsustainable, for it was in essence a rule by a lawless mob. The fundamental flaw in a true democracy is that the majority is unrestrained.

 

"Democracy is like three wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner." In other words, if 51 percent of the population voted to harm or seize the property of the other 49 percent, who's going to protect the 49 percent? This reveals the inherent flaw in democracy, which America does not dare bring light to.

 

US Constitution and Bill of Rights were designed to PROTECT you FROM a democracy! (Most Americans would flip if they heard that) For example, in a true democracy, or a "rule by majority", if most people in your town voted to seize your property and hang you, your assets would be confiscated and you'd be hanged. Simple as that. But in a Republic with a Constitution of rights, your rights and property are protected by law. If you are accused of anything, you have the right to a fair trial. That's how a Republic works. And that's how it PROTECTS you from a true democracy.

 

So why doesn't a true democracy work, you might ask? Well you see, most people are followers, not leaders or thinkers. They are emotional, not logical or rational. Being gullible, they are changeable on a whim, quick to jump to conclusions, and not wise. A true democracy is like having a mob take control (as in Socrates' example above) without laws or protection. It is neither efficient, stable nor sustainable. And besides, there is no logical reason to presuppose that the majority is always right either

 

Though on paper, America began as a Constitutional Republic, it gradually evolved into a form of oligarchy (rule by the elite), plutocracy (rule by the rich) and corporatocracy (rule by corporations). These terms are more accurate to describe America's governance than the term "democracy". Any unbrainwashed observer can see why. Yet the elite continue to perpetuate the democracy propaganda to instill patriot religious pride and fervor in its citizens, to get their compliance and obedience (ironically). They see it as a "necessary illusion" as Noam Chomsky, the renowned intellectual and American critic, would say.

For example, most Americans did not want the Vietnam War or the Iraq War, yet the US leaders insisted on them and shoved them down our throats, with the help of the media of course (see the film "War Made Easy" on Google Video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ykd6gOk8vM

Noam Chomsky, explained in his film Manufacturing Consent that since America does not have a totalitarian government militarily, the elite must control the masses thoughts instead. Therefore, they are engaging in a form of totalitarian thought control rather than by military rule. This means that they gain control of you one way or another.

 

You might think that myths about freedom and democracy are harmless beliefs that merely instill pride in people. But it goes beyond that. These myths also serve the function of garnering public compliance when America gets involved in wars or invades other countries and occupies them, such as Iraq, killing millions of innocent people for profit, greed and power, or other ulterior motives.

 

What the religion of patriotism says is that it is your duty to support all US sponsored wars even if it is in the wrong or are "the bad guys" in the conflict. Anyone who doesn't is condemned as "unpatriotic" or a heretic. Even celebrities and public officials are afraid to speak out against the Iraq War for fear of jeopardizing their position and careers. (so much for free speech) America uses a sick form of mind control that insinuates that if you are loyal to your country, you will support all its wars and invasions, even when it is in the wrong or on the side of evil. Otherwise, you are seen as a "traitor" and there is something wrong with you.

 

In essence, what America is saying is that loyalty and patriotism are above truth, justice and even life itself. It is willing to sacrifice innocent lives, including its own, and spread lies, for its diabolical purposes. This is plain wrong as well as evil. It is the total antithesis of freedom and justice. As a chilling reminder, Hitler also did the same.

 

In doing so, America again contradicts itself in claiming freedom of speech, while at the same time forbidding you to question what it preaches. In effect, America is saying "You are free, but you are required to agree with everything we say and do without question", which is total hypocrisy.

 

The elite understand that they must hide their motives for getting involved in wars all the time. If the public was told the truth, that America's wars are about power, greed, control and acquisition, the American people would not be willing to risk the lives of its troops. That's why the sheeple have to be deceived. The elite behind the military industrial complex know that they are lying, but believe that they can get away with it because they are at the top of the pyramid, have a "God complex" and are "above the law".

What those in the armed forces, or considering joining it, need to understand is that when you join the military, you are not serving your country. You are serving a cabal that wishes to destroy and enslave others, including you and your own family.

In order to keep them motivated with these conditions, people in the US escape into TV at the end of their days. They are encouraged to go to church (as black slave owners in the 19th century also encouraged their slaves to go to church, using religion to give them something to live for and feel content in their position so they wouldn't rebel), read self-help/New Age books, go out and buy material things (sometimes on credit) that give them a temporary fleeting sense of satisfaction, indulge in junk food, and are given daily network media entertainment in the form of television shows that are complete trash in quality and substance. These are all ways that our society distracts and stimulates the majority of people so they can maintain their meager existence in a mind-numbing consumerist society, serving the interests of those at the top.

Most Americans opposed immense issues of national importance like the Iraq War, Obamacare, etc etc. Yet, our Presidents/Congress still pushed them through, regardless. So clearly, there is no "democracy" here where it really counts!

 

America seems to be ruled by the worst of both worlds - brainwashed mobs of self-centered sheeple and their cunning puppetmaster overlords. And anyone in between these 2 extremes who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid pretty much gets financially/societally/politically screwed and tooled for either end..

Edited February 8, 2013 by vortex

[eye_of_the_storm]

^ excellent post

[eye_of_the_storm]

 

Gotta disagree on this point. The ONLY reason most solar/"green energy" is "affordable" is because of the stupendous amount of subsidies given to the industry. Why do you think so many (solyndra et al) have failed? Because the government cannot create demand. They can incentivize things, like offering you tax credits and such, but they cannot create demand for a product. Its not a matter of "if you build it, they will come," which has been the thinking thus far. And by any rational observation, oil and gas are mispriced on the high end as things stand - all because of government pushing.

 

Giving a tax break for R&D is not quite so much subsidy as it is explicit money-handout for the "green" industry. Oil companies pay just about more tax money than any other industry - cant say the same for green industry, because it is a net drain and not a net contributor by any stretch of the imagination. What we have with the green industry is the government up and trying to create an industry and push it before reality is ready for it. And the cumulative effects of the government's myriad market interventions merely distort the market signals that are relied upon for business planning, otherwise the case for showing massive oversubsidization of green energies would be even easier to make!

 

My post regarding above was based on information I had read some time ago... perhaps I am off.

 

I think there was a true green movement at one point which was destroyed/ suppression by ^ under the guise of an environmental movement.... + Tech suppression

 

I'd have to look into this again.

 

No subsidies in general?

 

I think it only fair to have things reflect true value/ cost etc

 

Maintain transparency, fairness etc

 

 

 

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

... and we're talking baout it. just talking...

[eye_of_the_storm]

Haha yeh

MH >

 

Nothing wrong with having ideas even if they are unachievable. Gives us something to shoot for (at if it were politicians).

+ what happens after the revolution?

[Marblehead]

Haha yeh

 

MH >

 

 

+ what happens after the revolution?

Therein lies the problem. Revolutions have never worked. Those who are overthrown are replaced by the leaders of the revolution and this normally results in having conditions worse than they were before the revolution.

 

There needs be evolution. A return of the power to the people.

 

And yes, even this is not perfect because it will be control of the total by the majority. The minority will lose every time.

 

Even my (universal) individual anarchy won't work because there needs be those who take care of the infrastructure.

 

The more I think about it the more I think a Social Anarchy might work. I don't know if anyone has ever established a plan for such a social organization. It would require individuals to participate in the best way they can or to opt out and not recieve the benefits of the organization. It would also require a gross reduction of individual greed replaced by the best interests of the organization. I don't know if humans could handle this.

[joeblast]

 

My post regarding above was based on information I had read some time ago... perhaps I am off.

 

I think there was a true green movement at one point which was destroyed/ suppression by ^ under the guise of an environmental movement.... + Tech suppression

 

I'd have to look into this again.

 

No subsidies in general?

 

I think it only fair to have things reflect true value/ cost etc

 

Maintain transparency, fairness etc

 

Most of what you see referred to as "oil subsidies" are tax credits for R&D. But if you treat all money as the government's money, then that tax credit is no different than the government simply handing you some money to operate, therein is how tax credits for oil companies' r&d gets conflated with explicit handouts of money for operating expenses to "green energy" firms.

 

Sometimes technology can receive excellent little bursts from the government that have great value...and sometimes the government can push tech itself and try to manufacture artificial EROI by ignoring how much is spent on this or that, as you see with EPA's 99mpg estimates that dont even consider the production of the electricity in their calculations for the darn cars. So basically when the subsidy dries up, so does the industry - look at what happened in Spain with windmills & solar, they spent scads of money on green investments, and as soon as the gravy stopped flowing the businesses and the industry went pretty much kaput. Whereas if such a thing happened to the oil companies, what we pay would simply increase, there would be no reduction in availability (outside of the political considerations that wind up driving the availability game anyway...)

 

That's why a free and open internet is our biggest weapon. When the shit is hitting the fan in a lot of these countries, the first thing the government does is try to cut them off from the rest of the world's flow of information (although that's usually so word of their atrocities wont get out as opposed to outside info getting in.)

[joeblast]

Guest Post: Why Reforms Won't Work

 

Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith of OfTwoMinds blog,

 

Regardless of the need for reform, it isn't going to happen for these structural reasons.

 

The list of public/private institutions that desperately need structural reform is long: the Pentagon, healthcare (a.k.a. sickcare), Social Security, the complex mish-mash of programs that make up the Welfare State, the 73,000 page tax code, public pensions and the financial sector, to name just the top few.

 

Every reasonably informed person knows that all these institutions need deep, systemic reforms, not another layer of bureaucratic oversight or a few policy tweaks. As evidence that the Status Quo is finally confessing to the obvious, please read Can America Be Fixed? The New Crisis of Democracy by Fareed Zakaria (Foreign Affairs).

 

The article lays out the unsustainability of current public/private institutions and policies in irrefutable detail.

 

 

 

Regardless of the need for reform, it isn't going to happen for these structural reasons. In a nutshell, the public-relations America presented by the mainstream media and the State bears little resemblance to the actual machinery of finance and governance.

 

1. Elections have become the means to control the redistribution of national wealth to politically powerful cartels and constituencies rather than the pathway to good governance. Good governance gets abundant lip-service (propaganda supporting the flimsy facade of PR America), but American government has by and large lost the institutional memory of actual (as opposed to PR) good governance.

 

We might use the career of Paul Volcker as a window into what has been lost. As Austan Goolsbee writes in his review of Volcker: The Triumph of Persistence by William L. Silber: "Volcker still believes that public service is the most important thing someone can do, but he fears that this attitude may be a relic of a bygone era."

 

Why be coy? In a nation of revolving doors between public service and fat-cat corporate lobbying positions, it is decidedly a relic of a bygone era.

 

As Mr. Zakaria observes, "The system works better as a mechanism for campaign fundraising than it does as an instrument for financial oversight."

 

This institutional corruption and loss of good governance cannot be repaired in a single election, and it renders real reform impossible.

 

 

 

2. In a bought-and-paid for democracy like America's, vested interests protect their perquisites, power and share of the swag/national income regardless of the costs to the economy and society at large. This perversion of "national interest" to serve provincial, neofeudal fiefdoms necessarily leads to the real national interest being subverted and sacrificed on the altar of expediency and protection of the Status Quo at all costs.

 

In a bought-and-paid for democracy like America's, it is impossible for a government whose first priority is serving and maintaining vested interests to assert the national interest if that requires dismantling the vested interests' power and share of the swag.

 

 

 

3. This feeds a self-reinforcing feedback loop of political expediency. Since real reform requires cutting the perquisites and swag of self-serving fiefdoms and crony-capitalist cartels, phony "reforms" are passed in a purposefully obscure flurry of complex legislation that leaves all the real work to regulators who are politically in thrall to the very interests they are supposed to regulate.

 

These simulacra reforms feed the PR need to "do something to fix the problems" while doing nothing but extending the Status Quo and making the problem's next crisis that much worse.

Here is the perverse feedback loop: when the next crisis hits, the cuts to the Aristocracy's fiefdoms and constituencies would need to be even deeper and are therefore even more repellent, so real reform is even more impossible than in the initial crisis. Another round of toothless, hyper-complex regulation is hurriedly enacted, erecting a Complexity Fortess around the parasitic fiefdoms and cartels.

 

 

 

4. The political, corporate/financial and National Security State Elites represent a vanishingly thin layer of the American economy and society. America today is the nightmare scenario feared by James Madison and other Federalists: a covertly created monarchical (what I term neofeudal) empire much like the Roman Empire--a republic in name but in reality a highly centralized Empire operated for the benefit of tiny Elites who buy complicity of the masses with free bread and circuses.

 

The "Monarchical Federalists" Madison and Jefferson feared have indeed established a neofeudal, neocolonialist Empire.

 

In this context, it is interesting to note that fully 20% of all entitlements (tax credits, Medicare, Social Security, etc.) flows to the top 10%, 58% goes to middle-income households and 32% goes to the bottom 20%. The swag of bread and circuses is remarkably well-distributed, buying off every sector of the populace.

 

 

 

5. Behind the PR facade of democracy and free-market capitalism, a parasitic Aristocracy extracts income and wealth from a financially indentured class of serfs. This Aristocracy is composed of several Elites which are served by what I term the Upper Caste of technocrats (prep-school/Ivy League graduates who enter technical/managerial service in key institutions, plus a handful of officers brought up through the service academies and war colleges).

 

These Elites and the Upper Caste serve each others interests, a social heirarchy that Hilton Root characterized as a "society divided into closed, self-regarding groups." The slow trickle of the "best and brightest" into the Upper Caste via Ivy League university admission is also a propaganda facade, as Ron Unz ably and exhaustively proves in The Myth of American Meritocracy How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?

 

The trick is enable just enough meritocracy to support the PR facade. The Ivy League has mastered that balancing act.

 

These Elites have few if any links to the social layers below. Charles Murray spoke to some aspects of this trend of financial/social Elitist isolation from the debt-serfs and middle managerial class below in Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010, but the key dynamic that is outside Murray's sociological purview is the stark reality that the Elite class is devoid of any real feeling for or interest in the common good or public weal.

 

That is, not only have the key institutions of American governance and power lost the memory and mechanics of good governance, the Elites running the institutions have become an inbred neofeudal Aristocracy characterized by an unexamined (and thus deeply adolescent) sense of entitlement to the reins of power and control of the national income.

 

It's not just the institutions that have lost any conception of good governance-- the Aristocracy ruling the nation has lost all interest or recognition of the common good. This is of course not unique to America; the same disregard for the common good is at the root of Greece's status as a failed state.

 

The incestuous embrace of privilege and power by protected, socially isolated Elites characterizes failed states and brittle, doomed regimes throughout history. It is painful to recognize that this is precisely what America has become: a failed state that refuses to admit to its institutional failure because that would require the recognition of a neofeudal, neocolonial Empire ruled by a small, self-serving, parasitic political and financial Elite.

 

There is one last dynamic that has yet to unfold: the disconnected, protected and politically incestuous Elites at the top of the monarchical Empire recognize the need for real reform at the last minute, when it is too late to effect repairs on a rotten-to-the-core and bankrupt State.

 

America may be as long as a decade away from this final recognition and frenzied rush to reform what has already been destroyed by self-serving Elites and parasitic, parochial fiefdoms.

 

One key element in this dissolution of the corrupt regime is the wholesale abandonment of the Elites by the managerial class which belated grasps its role as enforcers of the parasitic class and accepts that its naive aspirational ties to the Elites were illusory: When Belief in the System Fades (March 12, 2008).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

And the million ~210 trillion dollar question, how the *$% do we fix that????

 

This gets at the heart of the structural problems in the country.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Therein lies the problem. Revolutions have never worked. Those who are overthrown are replaced by the leaders of the revolution and this normally results in having conditions worse than they were before the revolution.

 

There needs be evolution. A return of the power to the people.

 

And yes, even this is not perfect because it will be control of the total by the majority. The minority will lose every time.

 

Even my (universal) individual anarchy won't work because there needs be those who take care of the infrastructure.

 

The more I think about it the more I think a Social Anarchy might work. I don't know if anyone has ever established a plan for such a social organization. It would require individuals to participate in the best way they can or to opt out and not recieve the benefits of the organization. It would also require a gross reduction of individual greed replaced by the best interests of the organization. I don't know if humans could handle this.

 

A constant and consistent state of revolution MUST be and cannot fail; the inspiration for perfect governance via perfect government: The Earth, and its eco system.

 

A CONSTANT STATE OF REVOLUTION AROUND SURVIVAL AND THRIVING.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I do like MHs change of word to Evolution...

I didn't much like typing revolution myself...

the word even implies a cyclic nature rather than true progressive.


@ At Joe Blast

Excellent post above

The problem does appear insurmountable...

The mountains are looking better and better everyday.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

"true progress" is somewhat an illusion, as all things (in/of progress) that can be, have been and will be aggain; there is a limit to "how far we can go" in all things: distances, time, length, duration, "progression". at the maximum level of "progress" then were?


Revolution. the earth isnt in a hurry to get away from the sun, why should civilization be in such a hurry to "progress" away from humans?

[Marblehead]

Revolution. the earth isnt in a hurry to get away from the sun, why should civilization be in such a hurry to "progress" away from humans?

Progress used to mean making life better for humans and allowing them more time to actually live. Now it means something totally different.

 

There is a Hank Williams Sr. song where he sings about his uncle who will be a horse-drawn man till his dying days. His uncle wanted no part of progress.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Progress is looking like hell more and more (not all things)

hmm

You may have noticed my ref to horses, bikes and walking

Ah the good old days... that I never witnessed...

ahaha

Edited February 9, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

You may have noticed my ref to horses, bikes and walking

 

Ah the good old days... that I never witnessed...

 

ahaha

Well, I'm not old enough to remember the horses but I do remember bikes and walking. (I actually have two Classic Cruiser bikes that I take out when the weather is nice and I'm in the mood for that type of exercise.)

[zerostao]

Revolutions have never worked.

not even our 1776 ? or the french revolution? and whether they actually work or not they need to take place to keep tyranny in check.

 

A return of the power to the people.

the people do hold the power, it will be great when the people wake up and realize they have the power.

 

Even my (universal) individual anarchy won't work because there needs be those who take care of the infrastructure.

good point, it is true that for 99% of us, even if we took every cent we earned in a lifetime , we could not finance one single mile of interstate hiway. much to our demise, america has quit investing into infrastructure and r&d. we are content to import what we could produce on our own. we are happy to outsource all of our jobs. i think this is done so other countries can have dollars and that gives our military leaders the idea that they need to be out there in the world to keep an eye on the dollars that are floating in other countries.

i mentioned somewhere how in my neck of the woods, anarchy is becoming the norm and the authorities are quick to notice.

in my little town now, if you drive one mile per hour over the posted speed limit you will be pulled over by the state police.

both sides (the anarchists and the police) are pushing the envelopes here.

[Marblehead]

Revolutions have never worked.

not even our 1776 ? or the french revolution? and whether they actually work or not they need to take place to keep tyranny in check.

I was wondering if anyone would catch me on that statement. You get one point.

 

Yes, there are many examples of revolts against control by external forces of a society. America, India, many nations in Africa, and the list goes on.

 

Revolts against internal control is what I was speaking to. Yes, I suppose that there are a few examples where there were civil wars (internal revolts) where the outcome was positive. We could even look at the American Civil War and say that the outcome was positive.

 

Bad me for making a generalized statement. Hehehe.

[joeblast]

Well, I'm not old enough to remember the horses but I do remember bikes and walking. (I actually have two Classic Cruiser bikes that I take out when the weather is nice and I'm in the mood for that type of exercise.)

My brother was talking about living in Skagway and how it was one huge party at the solstice. There was a communal pool of bikes - he'd get out of work, grab one of a dozen or two sitting around the hangar, and they'd peddle off to the bar. Gets out later, crap, somebody took my bike...well, it wasnt mine at any rate, just git another! The town paper has as many reports of found bikes as it did "stolen" ones

[joeblast]

Well, if anyone was wondering how the drone warfare against US citizens was going to start...

 

...I guess apparently they've already condemned the LAPD shooter to death via drone?

 

trial? trial? we dont need no stinking trial!

Edited February 11, 2013 by joeblast

[zerostao]

Well, if anyone was wondering how the drone warfare against US citizens was going to start...

 

...I guess apparently they've already condemned the LAPD shooter to death via drone?

 

trial? trial? we dont need no stinking trial!

using our military against our citizens!!

wasnt this not allowed? oh, thats right those little changes made for our protection

coincidently just this week i didnt get a trial either, will post in pp

[Trunk]

Vortex,

 

What's the link to your quoted text that starts,

"The founding fathers were intellectual elites who knew their history. They knew that a democracy was unsustainable, ... "

 

That was one of the most f###ing right-on political posts I've ever seen!, lol

I'd like to see who wrote it and read the whole article (if that's not it already).

 

- Trunk