breath meditation, difference between concentration and insight?

[Flolfolil]

really confused about this. i am reading that it can be one or the other depending on how you do it. Can someone explain this in detail for my simple mind? Also is there any way it could be both at once?

[ChiDragon]

By the Chinese definition of Chi Kung. It cultivates in breathing, the mind and the body, three-in-one. If anyone of the three was left out will be considered to be incomplete and less effective; especially, when the breathing was left out. It is because breathing was the major factor that give the body a better physical health. Finally, cultivating the mind was for concentration.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I think concentration leads to insight?

[Ish]

If you use the breath like an object that you are just deepening your focus on then it's concentration.

 

If you are being AWARE of the breath, it's sensations etc. this is like directly investigating which can lead to insight.

 

 

As White Wolf said if you deepen your concentration enough then once you enter a jhana state you can investigate this state with awareness rather than strengthening it further with more concentration.

[deci belle]

When concentration and insight are spoken of together in meditation manuals, they are not properly limited to techniques gaining entry to single-mindedness, The breath is used as an expedient device because undisciplined mind needs something at first to rely on— where it is described as using the sickness itself as the medicine.

 

Eventually, the breath should be forgotten in terms of being used as an aid in gaining entry to single minded concentration and insight into aware nature. Meditation is attaining single mindedness; it doesn't have to be deliberate. As such, meditation based on anything is a temporary expedient because aware nature itself is concentration and insight all-at-once without having to be broken down into two things based on observation of breath, thoughts, movement, stillness, etc…

 

But at first we could say meditation is concentration and single-mindedness is insight, because one leads to the other.

 

There are many pairs of terms describing the relationship between concentration and insight.

 

Another pair used in manuals is stopping and seeing. Google "stopping and seeing".

 

They are like one to the other; like respiration itself, alternating endlessly.

 

This is no different than movement and stillness.

 

Movement takes place on the in and out breaths, but it is the stillness that is the alternation between the breaths, so it is not just the alternating direction of the breathing itself …watching this and letting it go …and then letting the letting go too.

 

So the alternations and the relationships constituting the alternations become more and more subtle as practice deepens.

 

Concentration, stopping, stillness; insight, seeing, movement.

 

Because awareness itself is what is unborn, is the primordial itself, we use conditioned awareness (the sickness) to enter the inconceivable (the medicine). Awareness itself is inconceivable, its contents relative. So in this regard, we stop the conditioned aspect to see the absolute. Once we see the absolute, we do not then cling to insight, nor do we cling to the relative. The ultimate is seeing the real from within the conditioned as a natural fact of being aware.

 

Stopping aberrant views results in seeing reality as is, no longer in terms of self and other in everyday ordinary situations.

[GrandmasterP]

Just cultivate until it becomes so much a part of yourself that you do it automatically without having to think about what you are doing.

Best to stick to one form.

It takes a while but eventually everything sorta comes together. Regular cultivation is the key each and every day and ideally... same times, same place, same form.

Edited January 9, 2013 by GrandmasterP

[konchog uma]

what kind of meditation are you reading about?

 

shamatha/vipashyana is buddhist meditation where shamatha watches the breath until the mind is calmed and then various vipashyana techniques (some of them just different focuses on the breath) are used to gain different kinds of insight

 

but i am not sure thats what youre asking about.

[RiverSnake]

They are complementary, I recommend practicing both. Concentration exercises like gazing at a candle are good for when you are just beginning and give you a taste of emptiness so that you can eventually deepen ones practice in the insight area of practice. A healthy combination of each is good, they help refine and contribute to each other.

 

-my 2 cents, peace

[ChiDragon]

really confused about this. i am reading that it can be one or the other depending on how you do it. Can someone explain this in detail for my simple mind? Also is there any way it could be both at once?

 

My advice is to stick with one definition which make sense or works for you; and stay with it but disregard all the others' understanding to avoid confusion.

Edited January 9, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Flolfolil]

well what i do when i meditate is i use a double sided mantra, i say half of it when i inhale and the other half when i exhale. i am definitely gaining deeper concentration from it as i get effects like forgetting my body on some small level (basically nerves relax and i don't feel pain anymore) and i feel some sort of chemical-high-peacefulness feeling. But, i feel like i am getting stuck at that feeling. Even when i try to gently ignore it and continue, i stop at that feeling. i think i am making progress on that level, because i can now conjure that feeling at any time during everyday life. The mantra i use is training in morality, and depending on the situation i alternate between 2 or 3 mantras based on what i feel i need most. So while i am repeating the morality mantras, i am contemplating those too. i feel as if maybe i might be stalling in progress with concentration because i am contemplating the meanings of the mantras at the same time and how to integrate them with my life.

 

 

TLDR should i separate my training in morality mantras from my concentration practice? Is this holding me back in concentration?

[Ish]

Yeah doing some intellectual stuff at the same time would definitely hinder you. If you're trying to deepen concentration keep it one pointed.

[Flolfolil]

okay got it. i will separate those practices. But how is concentration on the breath one pointed if there is inhale and exhale? i have trouble with this as well

[laughingblade]

Shamatha and Vipassana are specifically buddhist approaches. Taoism doesn't understand them, perhaps because many of the more well-known Taoist cultivation practises are about qi development, and it's not afaik until Taoism gets to Shen development that such mind practises would even be relevant. You have to do a lot of horse stance to get off the wheel of Samsara. However I think these are complementary, and it seems to me reasonable in an integrative/mixin approach not only to do body, mind, and spirit practises but also to take from the traditions that have the 'best' tools. Ken Wilber has a lot to say about this.

 

So shamatha is about achieving a one-pointed tranquility through concentration on e.g. mantra, flame. Then vipassana is about moment-to-moment mindfulness. If shamatha isn't achieved then vipassana tends to scatter or dis-connect IMO. If only shamatha is pursued then one can become quite the cold and unfeeling spiritual tough guy. Balance the two and you have clarity with compassion: bodhisattva here we come!

[laughingblade]

okay got it. i will separate those practices. But how is concentration on the breath one pointed if there is inhale and exhale? i have trouble with this as well

Either:

Make the breathing soft and smooth so the inbreath and outbreath flow into each other with no gap, holding or 'mental pushing/anticipation'. You'll find you can ride the breath with your attention at a slightly 'higher'level than the flow of air and movement of body. That's maybe a more vipassana approach - mindful.

Or:

Get right down and dirty with every little movement and sensation. Follow one in-breath from tip of nostril all the way to the belly. Every millimetre of the way. That's more concentrative. You don't care about in or out because you're concentrating finer and finer.

Or:

Pick a point - the tip of the nose is common - and concentrate on what happens there. Another concentrative option maybe.

 

Did I get this right? Like GMP says above: cultivate and then some more. Attitude - interested aware attention is key. Without such then you can sit on your arse for lifetimes and not progress at all.

[Ish]

okay got it. i will separate those practices. But how is concentration on the breath one pointed if there is inhale and exhale? i have trouble with this as well

 

It is the mind that is one pointed.

 

For example one time I was practicing vipassana, just being aware of the body and whatever arose- sensations etc. After a while i just instantly made my mind one pointed and in that instant shot directly into a concentration jhana.

There wasn't any particular object that i concentrated my mind on, i just made the mind concentrate rather than pure awareness like vipassana.

 

So what i'm trying to communicate is that it's the quality of mind rather than the object that is important.

 

 

I've also entered the jhanas with mantra - Om Mani Padme Hum, Namo Amituofo, Namo Guan Shi Yin Pu Sa. As you can see there are multiple syllables but it is the quality of mind focusing that can lead you into these states.

 

 

 

^ Just my personal experience not a qualified teacher, so feel free to correct me anyone ^

[Flolfolil]

alright, so i have switched to one pointed focusing on the rise and fall of my belly. i think i get what you mean on quality of mind

[ShivaShakti]

I think being more "aware" leads to insight. Insights will more come to you when are in a state of more/high awareness.

 

While concentration practice is more to develop will power and focus power (and I.Q.)

Edited January 17, 2013 by ShivaShakti