Problems with visualizing the MCO

[Starjumper]

Yes, perhaps we are using the term water method and meaning two different things.

 

B.K. Frantzis, who has been the main driving force behind classifying his school as the true water method, has no guiding of the chi whatsoever. Very bad to guide the chi with physical movement or thought.

 

Chi awareness is developed through his dissolving process where you start from the top of your head and slowly, inch by inch, scan your body for anything uncomfortable, any blockage and then you focus on it and feel it slowly dissolve like ice to water and then water to vapor.

 

All chi kung movements involve deep breathing into the dan tien and then simultaneously focusing on the downward dissolving process at all times. No guiding the energy with your hands or intent. Focus is always on down, energy going down into the ground as you move, do tai chi, or sit in meditation. Down, down, down is the mantra. Water goes down, fire goes up.

 

That type of practice sounds like it would turn anyone into an inert lump of poo pretty fast, LOL. I can see that I was pretty far off in my interpretation of water water method means. I did a Google search and it looks like B. K. invented the term water method, I've also heard he is a nut =)

 

I have a couple of articles by him about Taoist meditation and water method. I'm not the kind of person who likes to read a lot of this ind of stuff but I slogged most of the way through the first article. I guess I picked up on some of the aspects I liked which seemed to match my practice and ignored others. My practice is definitely not water method according to your description of what you did. I read another article by him about Nei Kung and it also seemd to match my practice pretty well so I assumed that was the same as water method. Anyway, here are the articles, I guess maybe I'll try to read through them again. I reread parts of it tonight and this time i saw some things that I definitely disagree with.

 

Part one:

http://www.energyarts.com/lores/library/me...qisummer94.html

 

Part two:

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/media/qifall94.html

 

Moving energy up the spine is a definite no-no, and many of the students would feel very threatened if you even mentioned the MCO. Such a dangerous fire practice, we certainly don't do that here.

 

We are like fountains, taking a lot of energy up from the ground and broadcasting it outwards, that's where we go. Standing on the ground, even people that don't do Chi Kung take on the static electric charge of the Earth and conduct it upwards into differently charged levels, so being an upwards energy fountain is an embelishment of this natural process.

 

I understand that Earth energy is considered yin so that's one reason I associated it with water method.

 

So when you said water method is the best, that's what I assumed you referring to.

 

Bottom line, no method is best, no matter what your teacher says. Only what's best for you.

 

My method is best for me to brag about

[Jonah]

I hear ya brother. Again, I want to say that B.K. Frantzis's techniques are still excellent and I use many of them to this day, but not as a stand alone system anymore. I personally found that I needed other yang practices to balance them out.

 

And hey, I'm all for bragging Starjumper. I've got to say it's really hard to be humble when you're as great as I am... lol

 

Talk to you later.

[Spectrum]

Yes thelerner, some people do have more chi.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by madlib, but power is definitely the key word.....

 

That is my point exactly. Fill in madlib, w/ "power".

 

So maybe you don't actually have more, but you can have a lot higher flow rate. Radiating a lot of energy outwards is different than circulating it around internally, of course.

 

Can you explain the contradictory terms of language here? At first you say to thelerner some people have more chi, then to me you say so maybe you don't.... (?) not trying to jab you, just asking for clarification on your perspective.

 

 

There is no doubt that some people have more chi power

 

 

Then here again you say some people do.

 

One person who is sensitive to energy said my energy is very strong and he could feel it strongly from fifteen feet away even when I wasn't projecting energy at him and obviously most people can't do that.

 

How many more?

 

 

My teacher leaves energy trails,

 

 

Thats cool, From my perspective all people leave trails. like ducks swimming through a pond of jello.

 

 

as he walks through a room, that other people can pick up on and follow.

 

We practice this in darkened rooms for locating, then first contact is sticky/push hands practice. Pretty fun really, you start off picking up on just heat, but as it sounds like you know moves quickly through the spectrum, pun intended, what you describe is common for chi gung groups who congregate and practice together.

 

 

He has so much energy that a person I know, standing inside a large building can feel his energy radiating through the walls when he (my teacher) is standing around ourtside, and he can follow tthis feeling to locate him.

 

Again back to the idea of "more" or "more refined"?

 

 

"I disagree, yi is an important tool to combine with hand movements, in my case the yi focus are the hands themselves, but it's a tool and the result of more chi is due to the practice and repetitions, repetitions, repetitions. Repetitions (or time spent) are additive for chi power."

 

Am I incorrect in thinking "Yi" is about intent and not neccessarrily connected to physical movement? In this context the cultivation of Yi doesn't have much to do with physical movement, although I get what your saying about oribiting using your hands to guide, it's a GOOD idea, and obviously produces results for you, I have been paying attention to your posts and you have continuity in what you're saying. To me that means your practicing something.

 

 

That's part of it, but it appears you're resisting the idea of having more, because it's also possible to have 'more' unrefined energy too.

 

I'm resisting the idea of focusing on "more power" as some type of answer or truth to the condition most adepts start at. Less is more. If your wiring is yet screwy, more is not the answer... That's like saying that a good fix for a car w/ poor steering is to take corners harder.... It's natural to store and release, you can amplify any stage of the natural cycle. What about balancing and cultivating the forces between store and release... ? If you accumulate w/o balancing arn't you inviting a swing of extremes between storing and releasing w/o any type of balancing? Doesn't matter how big the battery is if what you're saving a few boulders that you can't carry on your back. Increase the size of your pack? Doesn't matter how big the pack is if you can't carry the weight. If we use what we have to our fullest ability, it makes sense to me we'll grow naturally. Obviously no offense intended, just friendly dialog w/ an obvious seeker.

 

Spectrum

Edited January 23, 2007 by Spectrum

[witch]

Sticking my nose in here, because I am trying to figure out what has happened to me. For me the energy wasn't visualized, but it did rise and it certainly wasn't through any sort of martial arts training. Marital arts training maybe. I'm relatively sure I did generate this energy, and it was through PC muscle flexing, not chi kung or anything like that.

 

I still don't know what the energy is called, whether chi or jing or kundalini, but I had some startling and life-changing experiences and just trying to figure out what happened.

[Starjumper]

Spectrum, I don't mind clarifying things but I have no patience for playing word games. Perhaps a person can't have more chi but they certainly can have more chi power, and I tend to call that more chi. WHATEVER you want to call it, I have a lot more of it than Joe Blow down the street and also more than most Tai Chi and Chi kung practitioners too, and my Chi Kung teacher has WAY more than I do, end of story.

 

Perhaps you don't agree with the idea that having chi power is possible or even a good thing but I have a lot of reasons for thinking it's a good thing and I don't want to bother explaining it right now. Whether you like it or not, real Chi Kung masters have a lot of chi power, it's true the world over, so you go deal with it.

 

If anyone wants to discuss the pros and cons of having a lot of life energy then start a new thread and I might add something to it.

 

 

 

Sticking my nose in here, because I am trying to figure out what has happened to me. For me the energy wasn't visualized, but it did rise and it certainly wasn't through any sort of martial arts training. Marital arts training maybe. I'm relatively sure I did generate this energy, and it was through PC muscle flexing, not chi kung or anything like that.

 

Yes, you did generate the energy. Muscle tension generates energy, which is why Zhan Zhuang works to generate more energy. If you use your perineum muscles then the energy generated tends to travel up to your head even if you don't visualize it.

 

I still don't know what the energy is called, whether chi or jing or kundalini, but I had some startling and life-changing experiences and just trying to figure out what happened.

 

I don't differentiate between those types of energy myself, to me it's either good energy or sick energy. So what probably happened is you sent some good energy up to your head and you may have had an enlightenment experience or else simply energized your head more and experienced the results of that..

Edited January 24, 2007 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

I hear ya brother. Again, I want to say that B.K. Frantzis's techniques are still excellent and I use many of them to this day, but not as a stand alone system anymore. I personally found that I needed other yang practices to balance them out.

 

I'm curious, what kind of hand position did you guys use with your BK method? I get a lot out of knowing that kind of thing. Also whether you were sitting in chairs or cross legged.

 

The idea of balancing is good. In my system we used more downward focus in the beginning because that is how you get rid of sick energy, once a person is healthier then down focus just wastes good energy so it is counterproductive. Later the focus is neither up nor down, it's centered, to increase power, after that the focus is more up, for spiritual purposes.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Starjumper7

[Jonah]

I'm curious, what kind of hand position did you guys use with your BK method? I get a lot out of knowing that kind of thing. Also whether you were sitting in chairs or cross legged.

 

Hand position generally palms down on legs. Sitting in chair or on the floor cross-legged.

[Starjumper]

Hand position generally palms down on legs.

 

 

That corresponds well with the intent of that practice: low energy, calming, draining down. Also, thanks for helping me figure out that my concept of water method was all wet.

[三江源]

Sticking my nose in here, because I am trying to figure out what has happened to me. For me the energy wasn't visualized, but it did rise and it certainly wasn't through any sort of martial arts training. Marital arts training maybe. I'm relatively sure I did generate this energy, and it was through PC muscle flexing, not chi kung or anything like that.

 

I still don't know what the energy is called, whether chi or jing or kundalini, but I had some startling and life-changing experiences and just trying to figure out what happened.

 

hello witch.

 

''pull up , squeeze'' is a healing tao basic excercise, referring to the pelvic floor area - the sacral pump. when I first began qigong I felt a spontaneous impulse to do this. It generates more energy in the body. Naturally the energy wants to travel up the spine. (when it happened to me, my spine b-u-r-n-e-d and I thought I was contracting some terrible spinal disease.) Then it reaches the head. this can create all sorts of feelings and effects, depending upon who you are, your state of health, and your personal issues. the next step is it for to flow down the front of the body, pooling again at the base, to loop it's way round again.If it doesnt do this naturally, it is guidable with intent. Ideally it will not stay stuck at the head, as that causes headaches and even what people sometines refer to as qigong psychosis. I have certainly met people with a lot of chi who are ungrounded and too yang. The front channel cools the chi as it flows down, and the process of circulation refines the chi. It can be pretty raw when it is unrefined.

 

You did generate the energy, muscle flexing that way is part of qigong. I dont know if it is chi, or the coiled serpent of kundalini, awakening.

 

People argue about that sort of thing and assert opinions about it.

 

hth, a bit.

Edited January 25, 2007 by cat

[lino]

I haven't felt this completely yet and I've felt just parts of this.

One time with vibrations dissipating in the middle of my back, and one time with absolutely no feeling in my back and somehow the vibrations reached the front of my forehead.

I'm trying to increase my body awareness right now. For the exception of Da Mo's Cave(which I haven't done yet), I'm going try to keep visualization to a minimum. I don't really want to get stuck visualizing all of the time, if I do then I start having speech problems.

[witch]

hello witch.

 

''pull up , squeeze'' is a healing tao basic excercise, referring to the pelvic floor area - the sacral pump. when I first began qigong I felt a spontaneous impulse to do this. It generates more energy in the body. Naturally the energy wants to travel up the spine. (when it happened to me, my spine b-u-r-n-e-d and I thought I was contracting some terrible spinal disease.) Then it reaches the head. this can create all sorts of feelings and effects, depending upon who you are, your state of health, and your personal issues. the next step is it for to flow down the front of the body, pooling again at the base, to loop it's way round again.If it doesnt do this naturally, it is guidable with intent.

hth, a bit.

 

That's not what happened to me. It went up to my heart and then came out in orgasmic bursts. The last few months I've been feeling it returned at my sixth chakra. I know that sounds really nutty but there it is. That one time when I was sitting up, then that energy was released through the top of my head and I had that CCO thing. But usually I try to cycle the sixth chakra energy down and release it through my heart again, this time going down instead of up. Like a 8, that is if I were exchanging energy with a man.

[三江源]

That's not what happened to me. It went up to my heart and then came out in orgasmic bursts. The last few months I've been feeling it returned at my sixth chakra. I know that sounds really nutty but there it is. That one time when I was sitting up, then that energy was released through the top of my head and I had that CCO thing. But usually I try to cycle the sixth chakra energy down and release it through my heart again, this time going down instead of up. Like a 8, that is if I were exchanging energy with a man.

 

Did you feel like the energy went straight up your core channel, perhaps. I had a lot of heart turbulence when I first began these practises, a lot of heart fire. I think the fact that you were contained and focused inside an eros vessel, would have dictated the nature of the flow and of your release. I'm trying to remember if I had heart bursts of orgasmic energy, and in fact, yes, I did. My teacher told me to write everything that I experienced down, and of course I didnt. I thought I'd never forget it. But I have forgotten it. I used to get them while doing standing meditation.

It doesnt sound nutty at all. The third eye sometimes activates a lot and one feels one 'knows' things, or 'senses' things in a fine tuned way, and that area is orgasmic. Yes. I remember it more now. the Body Electric!

To me the third eye felt peculiarly feminine. I wonder how it feels to the men.

 

I dont know if you are at all interested in this, but Eric Yudelove's book 'Taoist Yoga and Sexual Energy' is interesting in this area, imho.

[witch]

Yes, I'm very interested! Thank you, will get the book today. I'm just trying to get a frame of reference for what has happened to me. It's reassuring you have experienced the same thing. And if by peculiarly feminine you mean feels like a never mind.

 

So all this is going to stop and I will move on to something different? I've been having regular heart chakra orgasms for years now.

[mYTHmAKER]

To me the third eye felt peculiarly feminine. I wonder how it feels to the men.

 

Never thought of in masculine - feminine terms.

Just plain old energy.

I have traveled through the tunnel of the third eye.

I could go back if I focused on the third eye - but hey been there done that.

I no longer focus on anything. Que sera

[Jonah]

Yes, I'm very interested! Thank you, will get the book today. I'm just trying to get a frame of reference for what has happened to me. It's reassuring you have experienced the same thing. And if by peculiarly feminine you mean feels like a never mind.

 

So all this is going to stop and I will move on to something different? I've been having regular heart chakra orgasms for years now.

 

Witch, as much as Eric's first book "100 Days to Better Health, Good Sex and Long Life," has been invaluable to my own practice, I think his second book on sexual energy may not be as useful as actually talking one on one with another female who has experience and knowledge of sexual energetics and can help you out.

 

Two women I know personally who have such experience are within the Healing Tao, and are both top-notch instructors. I think contacting them and seeing if they could help you manage your energy flow would be really beneficial.

 

Karin Sorvik

 

http://www.healingtaousa.com/cgi-bin/prod_list.pl?rteach=16

 

email - [email protected]

 

 

Marie Favorito

 

http://www.bostonhealingtao.com/rts/index.asp?siteid=1159

 

email - [email protected]

 

 

Good luck!

 

Jonah

Edited January 25, 2007 by Jonah

[三江源]

So all this is going to stop and I will move on to something different? I've been having regular heart chakra orgasms for years now.

 

Not if you dont want to move onto something different ! Maybe it will organically shift if you stay with your process, or maybe Eric's book will give you some ideas. Playing with energy and moving it in and out of the third eye and looping it through the heart centre etc is all good, ( I have done it too.) it's like energetic flossing. Ken Cohen has exercises like that in his book, though he speaks of using 'regular' chi in this way.

 

If you meet Karin Sorvik, as Jonah suggests, it will be fun, she is lovely. I dont know Marie.

 

Do you have a goal with your energy, witch, or are you just happy to have it? Do you use it for magic?

 

 

Mythmaker - what happened with the travel through the tunnel?

[mYTHmAKER]

Mythmaker - what happened with the travel through the tunnel?

You've heard it before - There's light at the end of the tunnel

And I did come back.

Glad you asked as it made me look up my notes - 1986

Condensed:

The light was blue. I was following the Blue Pearl through a curving tunnel.

The most beautiful blue I have ever seen.

There were many angels and saints, crystaline forms , cherubs snakes and

faces along the way. I also saw voyager one - I was out in space with it.

And then the Blue Pearl exploded. The blue pearl is the vehicle that takes you to other realms

and the other place when you leave your body.

I was in full lotus tongue straight out and then to the back of my throat,

arms straight out overhead in chin mudra - also had an erection and a whole body orgasm without ejaculation.

I was feeling the cold but not bothered by it. ( it was winter 3 am not much heat in our loft.

I was crying, laughing

I was receiving answers to questions I had been thinking about.

I was communicating telepathacillay with mYTHISmAKER.

I had her get incense and I started doing arati - worship to all the pictures in our loft

and to her and our cats.

The atmoshere changed, the energy shifted the air was palpable as was the silence.

A feeling of being.

Now when I play tai chi the atmosphere also changes as though the air has substance

and that reminds me.

They say playing tai chi is like swimming in air

If one meditates on the third eye - eyes closed looking slightly up and toward

your third eye with your other two eyes you might make the trip.

Thanks my mind had forgotten much of it

PS I just remembered when I was seeing all this I opened my eyes and I was still

going through the tunnel seeing and experiencing everything.

Edited January 27, 2007 by mYTHmAKER

[Spectrum]

In true jedi form... preach it. Nice notes. Can't overemphasis the importance of notes for journey references. Even if they only make sense to myself.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Spectrum

[witch]

I live in Boston. I will make an appointment with Marie Favorito for a one-on-one class. Thank you!

[三江源]

Thanks for sharing that mythmaker.

 

It made me go "yowser!" type thing.

 

[Spectrum]

Edited January 27, 2007 by Spectrum

[Starjumper]

… but it sounds like that's just the start of your story…

 

My story is very long, yes, and most of it is yet to be experienced.

 

 

I just don't think it's good to be obsessed with obtaining power. It's the same attitude adopted by immature martial artists who are bent on being right by being tough. If you're training correctly percieved power will grow naturally with maturity.

 

Your use of the words perceived, and naturally, and relating it with maturity indicates you don't have a clue, but anyway, it's good I waited a couple of days before responding because at first I thought you were saying I was obsessed, ROFL. I WISH.

 

So if the top Chi Kung masters in the world are all about cultivating chi power then they are like immature martial artists, is that what you're saying?

 

Remember, we're talking about Chi power here, not political power. I've been around for quite some time and I am familiar with people who are repelled by the idea of cultivating power, I generally find them repulsive.

 

Power means being effective. Chi power means being an effective healer, it means being immersed in an ocean of bliss and great physical comfort. It means the inner smile is something that arises spontaneously, and not a pathetic inner visualization excersise.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Starjumper7

[Spectrum]

My story is very long, yes, and most of it is yet to be experienced.

Your use of the word perceived and relating it with maturity indicates you don't have a clue,

 

 

Cool man. I'll pay attention to you're posts; or not; maybe I'll learn something from you. You're flamboyant nature suggests a lack of maturity; my apologies if the idea of symbolic representation of soul through words offends the primitive mind you've awakened through chi gung practice. I guess I'm human yet; dialoging analog transitions through ambitions mission for secret knowledge observes natures replaced replications with mediated meditations.

 

So if the top Chi Kung masters in the world are all about cultivating chi power then they are immature martial artist, is that what you're saying?

 

The softest things in the world overcome the hardest. If there isn't any one of them that will talk about power in yeilding then you're right, i'm not interested in the power you are.

 

I am familiar with people who are repelled by the idea of cultivating power, I generally find them repulsive.

 

Oh yes, it sounds very Spontaneous.

 

Power means being effective. Chi power means being an effective healer, it means being immersed in an ocean of bliss and great physical comfort. It means the inner smile is something that arises spontaneously, and not a pathetic inner visualization excercise.

 

Wow it's hard to keep smiling when you read someone's critisisms of some second hand new age crap taking it all serious like you've got a serious chip on your shoulder bro. Healers without compassion arn't effective. You're right; chi means being effective, if you hold you're charge right, and don't become a little monster like in so many dark little kwons w/ power obsessive little chi mongers.

 

Spectrum

 

Spectrum

[lino]

I'm not sure if this is it but I feel a vibration after squeezing my taint and everything in it's vicinity. The vibration moves up my spine, spreads to about three inches at the top of my head, and now I feel it go to what feels like the left side of my sternum and down to the stomach and it happens without meditation or breathing:blink:

Is there a way to slow it down so that it feels more pronounced?

[thaddeus]

I'm not sure if this is it but I feel a vibration after squeezing my taint and everything in it's vicinity.

What's a taint?