Bodhisattva vow

[RongzomFan]

A bodhisattva understands sunyata.

[Cheshire Cat]

hehe I like your post, reminds me of finding loopholes.. hahaha

 

[Vmarco]

A bodhisattva understands sunyata.

 

It's further than that,...a bodhisattva "sees" sunyata.

[RongzomFan]

It's further than that,...a bodhisattva "sees" sunyata.

 

 

That would exclude most bodhisattvas. Understanding Madhyamaka is sufficient for now.

[Vmarco]

That would exclude most bodhisattvas. Understanding Madhyamaka is sufficient for now.

 

No,...that would not exclude any Bodhisattvas according to the Heart Sutra, and whole of the prajnaparamita,...Avalokitesvara is quite specific on how a Bodhisattva sees,...if you don't see that way, you're not a Bodhisattva.

 

If one follows the Mādhyamika orthydoxy, then perhaps they are Mādhyamikas. But what is Mādhyamika? If one is a follower of Thich Nhat Hanh Mādhyamika, then forget about waking up in this lifetime.

 

If Mādhyamika is pointing to all phenomena as empty of essence, as Nagarjuna implied, then those who can "see" that are likewise Bodhisattvas. If one comprehends the highest realization of Mādhyamika, they simultaneously realize prajnaparamita.

 

Nothing is sufficient except the perfection of insight,..to see things as they are.

[RongzomFan]

No,...that would not exclude any Bodhisattvas

 

It would exclude both you and I

[RongzomFan]

Realizing emptiness means you are on the first bhumi, atleast.

[Apech]

Realizing emptiness means you are on the first bhumi, atleast.

 

 

Exactly ,,, the first bhumi is the first stage of bodhisattva path. The realisation of emptiness. Until then its just a philosophical view.

[RongzomFan]

Yes thats right. Philosophical emptiness is supposed to help in realizing emptiness though.

[Vmarco]

Realizing emptiness means you are on the first bhumi, atleast.

 

Are not bhumis intellectual ideas to sustain some tradition, like a belt system in martial arts? One either realizes emptiness or not. One either perceives the world as it is, or one does not.

 

The idea of, "oh, I'm a first level bhumi,..I realize part of the truth" is Lineage BS IMO. How does one realize part of the truth? Which part of what they realize is the truth?

 

As Jed McKenna said, "One millionth of 1% false is completely false"

 

The bhumis, from what I've seen of them, are a Mahayana invention to signify some ridiculous ranking among deeply asleep monks. I suppose Nagarjuna had a 3rd century reason for using them,...teachers are so coddling. The prajnaparamita on the hand, implies that one is either aware of emptiness, or one is not. Who cares how relatively close one is?

 

If you're traveling at 160K mps, and another is traveling at 152k mps,...light is going by them both at 186k mps. Who cares what bhumi level someone says you're on? Of course, if you are running a big lamastary, then these levels seem important,...and if you look, no one can be at a higher level than head guys. No one is allowed to see the Suchness of 186k mps.

[RongzomFan]

Yes you correct in that the bhumis are illusory, as is the path in general.

 

Technically speaking the only difference between you and a Buddha is delusion.

[Vmarco]

Exactly ,,, the first bhumi is the first stage of bodhisattva path. The realisation of emptiness. Until then its just a philosophical view.

 

I'm in no way qualified to discussed the bhumis, and happily so. From what I've just read, the first bhumi is the realization of emptiness, but the person is still motivated by faith. What kind of nonsense is that? Once emptiness is realized, all faith instantly dissolves. There is no need for faith. A bodhisattva, that is, a bodhisattva that "sees" like a bodhisattva according to the prajnaparamitas, sees faith as empty. Why would an authentic bodhisattva, that is, one who sees like a bodhisattva according to the prajnaparamita, which is one who realizes emptiness, still cling to faith,...which is a empty as one can get.

[RongzomFan]

Vajrayana makes more sense to me. Its simpler.

[Vmarco]

Yes you correct in that the bhumis are illusory, as is the path in general.

 

Technically speaking the only difference between you and a Buddha is delusion.

 

Surely! A Buddha does not "see" by way of sentience,...whereas sentient beings do. In other words,...don't seek Buddha, or Emptiness, but seek and find all the barriers your sentience has built against it.

[Vmarco]

Vajrayana makes more sense to me. Its simpler.

 

I grew up in the Vajrayana vehicle,...specifically the Red Hats. Thus, was exposed to the Short Path at an early age.

http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/notebooks/23

[Birch]

Blofeld has an interesting commentary about it in http://www.amazon.com/Bodhisattva-Compassion-Mystical-Tradition-Shambhala/dp/1590307356

[RongzomFan]

Curious. Can you, Apech, "know" when someoene is speaking from a place of realization vs. philosophical understanding? Is the realization transmitted through the person? Is it "know"able to the listener/recipient?

 

 

Even Buddhahood is not knowable by others. Its impossible to judge realization.

[Apech]

Curious. Can you, Apech, "know" when someoene is speaking from a place of realization vs. philosophical understanding? Is the realization transmitted through the person? Is it "know"able to the listener/recipient?

 

 

When I have met those more advanced than me (yes I know its hard to believe they exist lol) I have sensed something that told me this was so. Since I am naturally skeptical I am not liable to follow anyone. However something draws you to first respect what that person is saying or doing, to listen and watch over a period of time, feel a connection hopefully and learn for yourself that what they say works and makes sense ... so confidence (rather than faith) can be built into a relationship which allows some kind of transmission to occur. At no point is it necessary to regard them as a god or infallible in any ordinary way ... if they suggest you do this ... or ask for lots of money then run away quickly (). Ultimately the interaction should make you feel closer to your own buddha-nature and not further from it.

[Apech]

I'm in no way qualified to discussed the bhumis, and happily so. From what I've just read, the first bhumi is the realization of emptiness, but the person is still motivated by faith. What kind of nonsense is that? Once emptiness is realized, all faith instantly dissolves. There is no need for faith. A bodhisattva, that is, a bodhisattva that "sees" like a bodhisattva according to the prajnaparamitas, sees faith as empty. Why would an authentic bodhisattva, that is, one who sees like a bodhisattva according to the prajnaparamita, which is one who realizes emptiness, still cling to faith,...which is a empty as one can get.

A quick read of Gampopa on the first bhumi I can't see anything about faith. It is called 'Great Joy' because (I think) it is the first break through when what was previously words and intellectual attainment becomes realisation. It seems to herald both a step change in determination to attain complete Buddha-hood and also give access to numerous states of absorbtion.

 

I think that problems emerge when someone who has not attained the first Bhumi writes about it ... this gives a lot of distorted literature ... I am including some quite eminent names when I say this. In fact quite a lot of dharma teaching is a bit 'off' like this in my (not so) humble opinion.

[Cheshire Cat]

Curious. Can you, Apech, "know" when someoene is speaking from a place of realization vs. philosophical understanding? Is the realization transmitted through the person? Is it "know"able to the listener/recipient?

 

I'm not apech, but I want to speak from my personal understanding of this matter.

 

I don't know if emptiness is something objectively real or some form of supreme view...

what matters to me is the practical application of something.

 

Emptiness is the essential device to transform the body in meditation. In gtu-mo for example, if you practice with a certain understanding of emptiness, you get bliss (mahamudra)... if you practice with undivided attention and nothing else, you get heat.

 

In my opinion, the real understanding of emptiness is reflected in the physical conditions of the individual.

Of course, this is not a general rule because you should know if the person had accident or illnesses, etc...

[Jeff]

Exactly ,,, the first bhumi is the first stage of bodhisattva path. The realisation of emptiness. Until then its just a philosophical view.

 

Hi Apech,

 

IMHO I would disagree that emptiness is realized at the first bhumi. The joy of the first blumi comes from the silencing of mind. Depending on your definition, I would say that emptiness is not "realized" until at least the fifth or sixth bhumi. The description of "Hard to train" (fifth) points to "understanding" emptiness, but still not able to explain/show emptiness to others.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[Jeff]

I'm not apech, but I want to speak from my personal understanding of this matter.

 

I don't know if emptiness is something objectively real or some form of supreme view...

what matters to me is the practical application of something.

 

Emptiness is the essential device to transform the body in meditation. In gtu-mo for example, if you practice with a certain understanding of emptiness, you get bliss (mahamudra)... if you practice with undivided attention and nothing else, you get heat.

 

In my opinion, the real understanding of emptiness is reflected in the physical conditions of the individual.

Of course, this is not a general rule because you should know if the person had accident or illnesses, etc...

 

Hi Dao,

 

I would argue that the "realization of emptiness" is something that is "objectively real/noticable". In many traditions, masters/gurus can transmit "light transmissions". Light transmissions are only possible if one has realized emptiness, because a light transmission is the transfer of "direct knowledge" thru/with Void. It is the blending of energy/form and void, or as the heart sutra describes... The realization of Form is Void, and Void is Form.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

[Vmarco]

A quick read of Gampopa on the first bhumi I can't see anything about faith. It is called 'Great Joy' because (I think) it is the first break through when what was previously words and intellectual attainment becomes realisation. It seems to herald both a step change in determination to attain complete Buddha-hood and also give access to numerous states of absorbtion.

 

I think that problems emerge when someone who has not attained the first Bhumi writes about it ... this gives a lot of distorted literature ... I am including some quite eminent names when I say this. In fact quite a lot of dharma teaching is a bit 'off' like this in my (not so) humble opinion.

 

As I'm not at all familiar with the Bhumi's,...thus my first stop was Wiki:

 

The First bhūmi, called the "Very Joyous", is attained with the first direct perception of emptiness and is simultaneous with entry into the third of the five paths to awakening, the path of seeing.....Despite having directly Perceived emptiness, bodhisattvas on the first level are primarily motivated by faith.

 

For me, I knew I was Kagyu as young as 8, just from investigating the spontaneous things coming from my mouth. Not suprizingly, Tilopa's Mahamudra was my first external guidance. For dozens of years, I've not only pondered daily from various translations, but did my own translation of those 28 verses.

 

Through Mahamudra instruction, I was impelled to let go of hope, fear, and faith. At 19 I uncovered that I have every right to sow, but none to reap what I've sown,...a very non-american point of view. Thus reading that this First Bhumi, from perhaps a 3rd Century perspective, said "motivated by faith" it doesn't resonate with my own experience in unfolding.

 

My basic assumptions regarding bodhisattvas arose from the Heart Sutra, which is the essence of how a bodhisattva sees. When I first read it, from my background in Mahamudra, it rang clear and simple. Afterwards however, reading various commentaries, like Thich Nhat Hanh's first commentary, I realized that very few had a clue what the Heart Sutra is about,...until last year, when prajnaparamita scholar Karl Brunnholzl published The Heart Attack Sutra. Although he has a few misunderstandings,...the overall book is more than 90% correct.

[Apech]

Hi Apech,

 

IMHO I would disagree that emptiness is realized at the first bhumi. The joy of the first blumi comes from the silencing of mind. Depending on your definition, I would say that emptiness is not "realized" until at least the fifth or sixth bhumi. The description of "Hard to train" (fifth) points to "understanding" emptiness, but still not able to explain/show emptiness to others.

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

Jeff,

 

You may well be right and I would be interested as to why you have reached this conclusion ... Gampopa "Jewel Ornament of Liberation" is not all that clear on this point ... or rather not clear enough for me to understand it. So I googled and found this:

 

http://www.heartspace.org/writings/traditional/TenBhumis.html

 

 

 

 

The first stage is called in Sanskrit Pramudita, or Very Happy. Bhumi means stage or ground. From the position of Bodhisattva to become a Buddha, one must go through the ten Bhumis, the ten stages or stations. The first is called the Very Happy station because in this first stage the Bodhisattva has recognized the Sunyata not only by thinking or just by visualization, but he has exactly and truly realized the Sunyata. Because he recognized the Sunyata, he is in another world, a world of Sunyata, not a world of ignorance or selfishness. So he feels very happy, and feels joy at having overcome the former difficulties. So it is called the Very Happy Station.

 

 

Which seems to confirm what I was saying ... but I have no idea how authoritative this is. So if you have other sources could you share them.

 

Thanks.

 

A.

[Apech]

As I'm not at all familiar with the Bhumi's,...thus my first stop was Wiki:

 

The First bhūmi, called the "Very Joyous", is attained with the first direct perception of emptiness and is simultaneous with entry into the third of the five paths to awakening, the path of seeing.....Despite having directly Perceived emptiness, bodhisattvas on the first level are primarily motivated by faith.

 

For me, I knew I was Kagyu as young as 8, just from investigating the spontaneous things coming from my mouth. Not suprizingly, Tilopa's Mahamudra was my first external guidance. For dozens of years, I've not only pondered daily from various translations, but did my own translation of those 28 verses.

 

Through Mahamudra instruction, I was impelled to let go of hope, fear, and faith. At 19 I uncovered that I have every right to sow, but none to reap what I've sown,...a very non-american point of view. Thus reading that this First Bhumi, from perhaps a 3rd Century perspective, said "motivated by faith" it doesn't resonate with my own experience in unfolding.

 

My basic assumptions regarding bodhisattvas arose from the Heart Sutra, which is the essence of how a bodhisattva sees. When I first read it, from my background in Mahamudra, it rang clear and simple. Afterwards however, reading various commentaries, like Thich Nhat Hanh's first commentary, I realized that very few had a clue what the Heart Sutra is about,...until last year, when prajnaparamita scholar Karl Brunnholzl published The Heart Attack Sutra. Although he has a few misunderstandings,...the overall book is more than 90% correct.

 

Hi,

 

That wiki quote looks a bit dodgy to me - it has no citation and I am unwilling to go back through the history page to see who added it and when. With wiki it could be part of a main edit or just a bit tacked on by someone on the basis of ... a brainwave. I am using Gampopa's "Jewel Ornament ..." as reference and I can see no reference to this idea of being motivated by faith. In fact I think I agree with you that you may well be sustained by faith (in the sense of confidence in the path and masters etc.) up to the 1st Bhumi but if it is what I think it is ... then faith would no longer be a motivation ... but rather you would be spurred on by having made this breakthrough progress.

 

The Bhumi's are not something which I have studied properly or received competent teachings on so I am willing to overruled on this if someone can provide a good source and not opinion.