Embryonic Breathing Questions

[i am]

I'm reading Dr. Yang's book. I finally got through the hundreds of pages of theory, and into the dozen or so pages of actual practice, and I've found that it's not laid out in a way that makes the actual practice clear to me.

 

I won't go into how he has it laid out, I'll just say that there aren't clear stages I can find...he says do this, or do this, or after a while do this, for enlightenment do this, etc...

 

If someone does this practice, can you spell it out a little better for me?

 

I gather than I should start with abdominal breathing, and after a while of that, when I'm comfortable with it, I can use reverse-abdominal breathing instead. Ok.

 

He says I need to increase the ability of my LDT to store qi, but says those practices are in another book. Ok...

 

He talks about leading the qi and shen to the LDT and all that stuff, but it kind of seems like that's something you do at a later stage?

 

My point is that he has all these separate instructions, and it's kind of clear that some are more advanced practices, but what are the basic practices? What am I doing when I'm sitting there, before I'm doing the more advanced stuff?

 

At first, for how ever many months, am I just breathing? Sitting in meditation, abdominal breathing, keeping my intent at my LDT? Then move on to the same thing except with reverse abdominal breathing? Then after a while of that, I start actual embryonic breathing, which I'm gathering is basically moving my lower back along with the abdomen? Not to say "just breathing" like it's some minimal thing, I'm just asking if that's really all I need to be doing.

 

Is this still reverse breathing? So my lower back is going out while my abdomen is going in, on the inhale? Or is the abdomen going out, and the lower back going out, on the inhale?

 

There isn't really instruction saying "at first do this (this being, sit, do this kind of breathing, focus here), then after so many months, start doing this also" etc. It just kind of says at first the kind of breathing you do is this kind, then this kind, then you start leading shen and qi and all that.

 

So am I right that at first, I'm just breathing, with my focus on my LDT? I move eventually from abdominal to reverse abdominal? Then actual embryonic breathing? Then at some point I start actually working on the spiritual embryo and all that?

 

I'd appreciate some insight..

[Aetherous]

My view:

 

Natural breathing...breathe within the lower dantien (slightly below the navel) and have no movement in the chest or solar plexus area. On the exhales, gently close the anus. When inhaling expand the front, sides and back of the lower dantien.

 

Reverse breathing...on the inhales, gently close the anus, pull the navel inward toward the spine, and very slightly lean forward so the lower back opens...on the exhales, relax.

 

When I have practiced this stuff, I preferred to do natural breathing until very calm, then reverse breathing to kick up energy, then natural again to calm and go back to normal...then breathe out the mouth a few times to purify the qi...then I would put the palms over the dantien and store the sensations there.

 

This practice kind of accomplishes everything...so maybe that answers some of your questions.

 

Embryonic breathing is something that will happen naturally later on. Spiritual embryo is something that is occurring during practice.

Edited January 13, 2013 by turtle shell

[konchog uma]

common problem with the book. A qigong teacher and lineage student of DrYJM told me that it was next to impossible to learn from that book. sorry to say, but he said that to learn from a qualified teacher was best by far.

 

but you're not missing anything, the book just doesn't really give instructions on the practice. Its more like a collection of texts than a practice manual.

[RiverSnake]

I bought one of his books "Small Circulation". Had a similar experience, couldn't get through all the intellectual mumbo jumbo...when i went to the practical sections i was just lost. I think its meant to serve as an Academic text in order to bring some reputability to Qigong methods in a western medical setting. Just my opinion though.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[i am]

Ok, thanks everybody.

 

Turtle Shell: thanks.

 

I think as I was typing my post, it was starting to make more sense how to approach it.

 

For now, I'll sit, cross-legged, "natural" breathing. Move on to reverse as it feels comfortable. After that...I guess I'll need a teacher if I want to progress.

 

And the confirmation of how hard it is to learn actual practice from his books is good...I don't need to spend any more money on them.

 

Thanks!

[joeblast]

I'm reading Dr. Yang's book. I finally got through the hundreds of pages of theory, and into the dozen or so pages of actual practice, and I've found that it's not laid out in a way that makes the actual practice clear to me.

 

I won't go into how he has it laid out, I'll just say that there aren't clear stages I can find...he says do this, or do this, or after a while do this, for enlightenment do this, etc...

 

If someone does this practice, can you spell it out a little better for me?

 

I gather than I should start with abdominal breathing, and after a while of that, when I'm comfortable with it, I can use reverse-abdominal breathing instead. Ok. The method is up to you, some people find natural easier, some people can do reverse with ease - reverse generates higher energetic amplitudes as compared to natural, generally speaking.

 

He says I need to increase the ability of my LDT to store qi, but says those practices are in another book. Ok... Check the verbiage a little more closely - these practices are the foundation of it, he mentions more advanced extraction methods are in more detail in secret of youth and small circulation.

 

He talks about leading the qi and shen to the LDT and all that stuff, but it kind of seems like that's something you do at a later stage? Once certain concepts are grasped and experienced it forms a basis for further things.

 

My point is that he has all these separate instructions, and it's kind of clear that some are more advanced practices, but what are the basic practices? What am I doing when I'm sitting there, before I'm doing the more advanced stuff? EB is relevant no matter what level of practice you are at - it is setting the foundation so that the more advanced things have this gongfu to leverage. There is a substantial matrix of inputs, feedbacks, etc that have to be mitigated in order to establish a solid foundation, good practice habit. When just sitting there...heh, just sit there and enjoy what you are doing. Take it from an objective perspective, what could be more wonderful than having the opportunity to cultivate the foundation for enlightenment?

 

At first, for how ever many months, am I just breathing? Sitting in meditation, abdominal breathing, keeping my intent at my LDT? Then move on to the same thing except with reverse abdominal breathing? Then after a while of that, I start actual embryonic breathing, which I'm gathering is basically moving my lower back along with the abdomen? Not to say "just breathing" like it's some minimal thing, I'm just asking if that's really all I need to be doing. Cultivate until there is nothing left but your own shining awareness. Keep intent on the breath mechanisms, awareness at the niwan, that will help attenuate the cranial nerves - the CNs are your interface of the senses, only once they are sufficiently quiet will the "noise floor" drop substantially. Learn to let go of the air passages and eventually forget about the movement of air completely, cease using the sinuses to buffer incoming air and rely solely on the diaphragm-psoas-perineum dynamic for all of the breath. Descend the diaphragm from the very rear and imagine descending the adjacent-overlap of the diaphragm and psoas down to the dantien 2 inches below the navel, front:back=3:7, investigate the motion of each physical structure, find the energetic culmination of each, and time them concurrently about the dantien. Continue until you cant hear your breath any longer. Then put earplugs in and continue until you cant hear breath then. After that, try lying back in the tub and listen to your breath, smooth it all out until you cant hear or feel any of the movement of air. All of that energy normally used will go to "core processes."

 

Is this still reverse breathing? So my lower back is going out while my abdomen is going in, on the inhale? Or is the abdomen going out, and the lower back going out, on the inhale? I simplify it by not focusing on the front of the abdomen in either scenario of breath strategy - for when everything is streamlined enough, "the breath externally disappears" which really just means you've shifted the onus fully onto the diaphragm-psoas-perineum dynamic and are getting good internal movement of all of it. So in focusing on reverse breath in this regard, descend the diaphragm from the bottom rear just like I mentioned before, but also lift the perineum when you do it. Relax all on inhale. That's it.

 

The only difference for Natural Abdominal Breathing is the perineum relaxes on inhale and lifts on the exhale. If you consider contraction as yang then we see a good balance of yin & yang motions in Natural; Reverse we see yang all at once, yin all at once.

 

The front of the abdomen is really a sort of "martial modifier" in that it is used to manifest as opposed to its usage in the "One Breath" or a longevity breath. So if you punch something, push a car, you tense the front to have an effect on your energy-intent-direction. Hence Yang's mention that the qihai point on the front of the abdomen being considered the "false" dantien since by its location on the conception vessel, energy-manifestation there readily flows into the MCO and other vessels/meridians. You point to it and say "that's where the dantien is" but you are only pointing externally, so that which you physically point at isnt "the real."

 

....The one thing I missed in there was that in the same vein, a certain amount from the front (and sides, and rear, all in their respective extent, duration) is necessary and beneficial for a great many stages of practice, the disregard almost completely can be taken in a longevity breathing context - remember the energetic culminations being focused about the dantien - iotw like the bow that shoots an arrow, each individual portion of the mechanics has an energetic vector potential to manifest and direct - so direct them to coincide at the dantien - like any waves meeting, if they're timed well then the energetic potential is higher. Keep in mind that there's a gain/loss ratio there too, it takes a certain amount of energy to manifest a given vector potential, manifest harder can go higher, there is a certain curve-relationship of energy production vs consumption to manifest it! So investigate that like looking at a car's dyno readout, one for each component, now go play with experiential equations and then consider it in light of the "trying to attenuate all this other stuff" context, and you have quite a rubicks cube there .....

 

There isn't really instruction saying "at first do this (this being, sit, do this kind of breathing, focus here), then after so many months, start doing this also" etc. It just kind of says at first the kind of breathing you do is this kind, then this kind, then you start leading shen and qi and all that.

 

So am I right that at first, I'm just breathing, with my focus on my LDT? I move eventually from abdominal to reverse abdominal? Then actual embryonic breathing? Then at some point I start actually working on the spiritual embryo and all that?

 

I'd appreciate some insight..

Basically you want to take each and every concept in that book and spend a little time applying it in practice to gain experiential understanding of how the description translates to your body through practice. That is the purpose of all the ancient translation: signposts.

 

First just attain coherent breath mechanics and work on calming bodily processes, identifying signals. Once you identify a signal, then you have basis for attenuation: how much, where, maybe at some point....why

Edited January 14, 2013 by joeblast

[i am]

Thanks both of you! I was hoping Joe would chime in, since I've noticed you're over on the Yang forum (brave of you, too, since all it is, from what I've seen, is a bunch of bickering and contrary people. i thought of joining for a while, but any topic I ever click on has wptaiji being an ass and just being contrary to anything anyone says... )

[joeblast]

I was there before I was here I learned so much from dr yang's material, I felt obliged to hang around for a bit and help others

[dawei]

My main criticism of the book is as has been shared; it is difficult to make sense of the sections towards a practice. But the trick is to read Chapter 5 a few times and start by making an outline and go back and add some more detail as needed to understand each point being made. Start with the first paragraph of 5.3, this summarizes the entire chapter. A first pass outline may be as follows:

1. Locate the real center of the UDT and LDT

2. Condense the Shen in the UDT and the Qi in the LDT

3. Condition the LDT

4. Increase the quantity of Qi in the LDT

5. Embryonic Breathing

6. Lead the Qi and Shen to the LDT

7. Conceiving the Spiritual Embryo

8. Further Spiritual Qigong Development

 

A second pass may then be as follows:

 

1. Locate the real center of the UDT and LDT

a. One must find these centers so that the Shen stays in the UDT and the Qi stays in the LDT.

b. One must be able to find it in meditation and keep their mind there. That will keep the Shen and Qi in their own center.

2. Condense the Shen in the UDT and the Qi in the LDT

a. Condense Shen at Mud Pill Palace. See instructions on breathing.

3. Condition the LDT

a. Massage and stimulation of the LDT

4. Increase the quantity of Qi in the LDT

a. Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB) for six months

b. Reverse Abdominal Breath (RAB)

5. Embryonic Breathing

a. Helps keep Qi in real LDT and increase Qi to an abundant level

b. See breathing technique and how to use the mind to keep Qi and Shen at their residence

c. Final stage is to bring Shen down to real LDT

6. Lead the Qi and Shen to the LDT

a. See Buddhist way

b. See Daoist way

c. Also see Girdle and marrow breathing

7. Conceiving the Spiritual Embryo

a. Lead Fire Qi and Water Qi to Huang Ting

b. Lead Shen and Qi to Huang Ting

8. Further Spiritual Qigong Development

a. Refine Jing; convert to QI

b. Refine QI; convert to Shen

c. Refine Shen; Return it to Nihility

d. Small Circulation (microcosmic orbit-MCO)

e. Grand Circulation

f. Spiritual Enlightment (unification of heaven and earth)

 

I would keep reading it several times until you see that it appears as linear above but I think some are concurrent.

[Aetherous]

My main criticism of the book is as has been shared; it is difficult to make sense of the sections towards a practice. But the trick is to read Chapter 5 a few times and start by making an outline and go back and add some more detail as needed to understand each point being made. Start with the first paragraph of 5.3, this summarizes the entire chapter. A first pass outline may be as follows:

1. Locate the real center of the UDT and LDT

2. Condense the Shen in the UDT and the Qi in the LDT

3. Condition the LDT

4. Increase the quantity of Qi in the LDT

5. Embryonic Breathing

6. Lead the Qi and Shen to the LDT

7. Conceiving the Spiritual Embryo

8. Further Spiritual Qigong Development

 

A second pass may then be as follows:

 

1. Locate the real center of the UDT and LDT

a. One must find these centers so that the Shen stays in the UDT and the Qi stays in the LDT.

b. One must be able to find it in meditation and keep their mind there. That will keep the Shen and Qi in their own center.

2. Condense the Shen in the UDT and the Qi in the LDT

a. Condense Shen at Mud Pill Palace. See instructions on breathing.

3. Condition the LDT

a. Massage and stimulation of the LDT

4. Increase the quantity of Qi in the LDT

a. Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB) for six months

b. Reverse Abdominal Breath (RAB)

5. Embryonic Breathing

a. Helps keep Qi in real LDT and increase Qi to an abundant level

b. See breathing technique and how to use the mind to keep Qi and Shen at their residence

c. Final stage is to bring Shen down to real LDT

6. Lead the Qi and Shen to the LDT

a. See Buddhist way

b. See Daoist way

c. Also see Girdle and marrow breathing

7. Conceiving the Spiritual Embryo

a. Lead Fire Qi and Water Qi to Huang Ting

b. Lead Shen and Qi to Huang Ting

8. Further Spiritual Qigong Development

a. Refine Jing; convert to QI

b. Refine QI; convert to Shen

c. Refine Shen; Return it to Nihility

d. Small Circulation (microcosmic orbit-MCO)

e. Grand Circulation

f. Spiritual Enlightment (unification of heaven and earth)

 

I would keep reading it several times until you see that it appears as linear above but I think some are concurrent.

 

That looks increeeeeddddiiibbblllly complicated. Why not just check out the natural and reverse breathing instructions? I think the rest is just for your consideration, or as a supplement to the practice.

[dawei]

That looks increeeeeddddiiibbblllly complicated. Why not just check out the natural and reverse breathing instructions? I think the rest is just for your consideration, or as a supplement to the practice.

It may be complicated when looking at the entire thing but one is only doing one or two steps at a time for many months at times... that is rather palpable for those willing or wanting to make sense of the books ideas. I don't think it is for everyone but this is what the thread is about.

 

---

 

Another general thought: YJM talks of using herbs to increase Qi and that is a way to supplement some of the steps. One has to take care when doing this as you may become too Yang. Over the last year I was drawing a lot of my energy from herbs but found I had to recently detox a bit and Yin myself down.

Edited January 15, 2013 by dawei

[joeblast]

"condense shen at upper dantien" = "fix spirit at the seat of awareness"

[i am]

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

Oh, and I'll have a lot more questions at some point, I'm sure. But for now this is a ton of info, so I'll just get on with trying it out.

Edited January 15, 2013 by i am

[dawei]

"condense shen at upper dantien" = "fix spirit at the seat of awareness"

What a tease

 

Some of this is explanation and some of this just needs to be tried or experienced. As YJM suggests about how to find the real LDT or UDT... after fixing your mind there [however long needed], you will find that 'seat'...

 

As a new years resolution, I had wanted to do some daily-long focus on the LDT... but as I did it, I was feeling pushed aside... I was lead to the UDT instead... so I followed that instead... I found a seat waiting for me there...

 

While there is a lot to be said for practice, one should at least realize (OPINION ALERT) that practice is not natural on some level... If your really in tune with your body, it will lead you to where you should be.... there is usually a seat waiting for you there.

[joeblast]

I figured out what I dont like about that concept, condensing the shen at the upper dt. condense seems to just be a mistranslation, as if it were "gather" or something - but to my physics oriented mindset, condensing implies phase change from gas to liquid (when it should stay in plasma state )...it just implies stagnation to me. verbiage is opposite of dissolving. I like fix the spirit at the seat of awareness because there is no connotation of changing the qualitative behavior, I like the idea of setting a lamp upon a post to light the room.

 

as to not natural...well, we have entropy to deal with, and our will is the counterbalancing force to entropy nothing outside of nature there!