IS Martial arts still Martial arts

[Xandre Zezo]

It has been brought to my attention by my Sifu of Buddha Fist that the Martial Arts practised now days in Western Countries are to put it lightly bull****. To paraphrase what he said in a conversation with me he goes" its 2013 you're not gonna learn an external art that does you in the real 'Martial arts' were taught years ago in modern society we dwindle our time away there isn't enough time . You have to train 8 hours a day for that sh*t and these modern internal arts are full of sh*t they just talk talk talk if you ask anyone of them to spar with you they will give you a blank look or some BS about how it's dangerous anyone who is unwilling to touch hands with you is full of c**k "

 

Forgive me for the abrasive language my Sifu is very opinionated but also very talented. But back to the issue this conversation rocked me quite badly as it in most cases is very true . Martial < War is a term used when killing is involved back then individuals made it their lifestyle. It's seems most martial arts practioners seem to do three things later in their martial arts journey they either quit and give up saying there's not enough time, can't afford it it's just a hobby etc , become a teacher with an appalling level and watered down martial arts which they intend to pass on and it becomes watered down even more compared with those in Eastern countries or and this is quite rare they become a good teacher and maybe even a master one day. Some schools claim to be full time but they are not there approach is so outward and westernised that consumerism has taken its toll and it often becomes about money. Schools don't train hard or smart enough there are so many students that no one gets attention these are all common errors in western martial arts schools. it's so sad to feel like Martial arts is becoming fake and mostly impratical in this day and age . How many of you can truly say you've been in a life or death situation and your martial arts prowess has saved your life ? Kudos to those of you who can but its not just the fighting that matters it's the way a martial art is used in everyday life which in my opinion is also key to being great in any art form.

 

Now the reason for the post is I'd like to here everyone's opinion on it what I would also like to do for the benefit of everyone is for people to post where they have found schools which are fully dedicated to all their students and train hard and have produced true martial arts masters in the past and it has effective been passed down and is represented in the training. I apologise for any typos or writing errors made on my part. I think it's important to discuss this issue and if any eastern martial arts masters are on this site please give us your opinions I implore you .

[Taomeow]

"Martial arts practiced today in Western countries" are occasionally taught by top masters from China, and taught exactly the way they were taught in China before they were prohibited there and after they were allowed again. At least that's the way they are taught by the real teachers, though they are indeed taught any which way by everybody else. My taiji teacher is one of the real ones, and I can assure you there is 0% BS in what I've learned from him so far.

 

That said, just having a great teacher with great skill and a superb way of transmitting it is only pointing at the door -- the student is the one who has to walk through the door. It's not possible for most (whether Chinese or Westerners -- many of my classmates are Chinese) to do 8 hours a day, though it is indeed traditional. Of my teacher's students only one guy does that -- a Westerner -- he is absolutely obsessed with taiji. His skill grew fast, and keeps growing. He can most definitely and very easily kill anyone who doesn't have this level of skill in a life-and-death situation, and he can easily avoid it too (which is much more important -- it's about control of the situation, not about overpowering and hurting the opponent). If I wanted to catch up with his level, I'd have to do way more work... not seek another teacher in another place in another time. That would be quite unnecessary. I have the best at my fingertips, gods of migrations be blessed. But if I have lazy fingertips (which I do, among other lazy body parts I have), it's not my teacher's fault, is it?..

 

Just today though my taiji kicked in automatically and unexpectedly when I was doing some shopping. A guy vigorously darted with his cart from behind the edge of the isle and caught my foot from behind with the wheel, quite expertly though inadvertently, in a classic qinna entanglement that would have twisted my ankle if I hesitated to disentangle myself even for a split second. I didn't! The cart was still moving when I jumped, simultaneously rotating my foot out of the wheel's grip and from under the cart and toward my own body ("it's MY foot," as a mnemonic rule goes for the direction of the rotation out of a qinna), and landed 180 degrees in the opposite direction, facing the cart and the guy and smiling. He was just blinking and apoligizing in total bewilderment. I was bewildered myself. This move is from a routine I've just started learning, I had no idea my body already got it -- my mind hasn't yet!

[GreytoWhite]

The folks over on Rum Soaked Fist discuss training methods and so forth, it's pretty well agreed that most people learning any martial art will not be able to fight with it or come close to the skill of practitioners of old. It's true and sad, not something I particularly care about. I learn the internal arts not to fight but I will if need be. Granted, I learned to fight on the playground, on the street, and in bars before I learned any amount of taiji.

[thelerner]

Hmnn, wonder how many 100's of dojo's he's visited in the U.S? Still martial arts is time consuming and if you're smart and not unlucky you tend to avoid life and death fights. I respect those who train 8 hours a day, but thats a high price to pay, particularly if you want a life outside. Your master may pity those who don't, others will pity those who spend all there time practicing.

 

The big movement in the West has been Mixed Martial Art (MMA) fighting which incorporates moves from different arts often w/ Brazilian Ju Jitsu as a firm base. Early on the Brazilian JJ wiped the floor with other styles in free style contests. Old styles fell with relative ease to it much to the surprise and shock of traditional teachers. Later as defenses become better it become neutralized. But here in the states the MMA fighters who train very hard and have tended to beat pure styles. These days it rare to see a pure style compete, they're simply outmatched.

 

Myself, I probably fall into the slacker category of martial artists, not that I'm actively training these days. Style was KI-Aikido, I probably trained maybe 12 hours a week at the dojo, a few more hours a week solo. I studied actively for 13 years. The training was more interested in life training then death matches. As long as you know the benefits and limitations and dare I say weaknesses of the art I think your fine. The problem comes when dojo's make claims that fill heads with grandiose ideas.

 

What I learned helped me immensely. Hard strikes, hard falls, done in a friendly environment at a time when my work life was high stress and I needed a place to blow off steam physically and mentally. Ki-Aikido allowed safe but hard contact. Not always realistic, but it include breathing, meditation and healing aspects, and those things are just likely to save my life as any martial technique.

[GrandmasterP]

You'll find similar sentiments over on the MartialTalk Forum too and that's about the biggest MA forum out there. Also this is a running theme in Martial Arts Illustrated magazine, this month there's a leader article along these lines in there.

Thing is since Mixed Martial Arts came out there has been the opportunity to see how various MA's actually work out in combat situations and some have come up wanting.

It's one thing to play a martial art with others in a nice warm Dojo where everyone knows what to expect and when , quite another to face someone wielding half a brick and ill intent towards one in a dark alley.

There is a small spiritual fancy over on MartialTalk but in the main the MA people are in it for the MA rather than the spiritual side.

Funny thing really, the spiritual fancy mainly consists of people from the MMA and the Dog Brothers whilst tghose from the 'pure' MA's tend to be physically and externally focused.

Not that necessarily you'd guess it from watching them fight but some of those Dog Brothers (includes women) are deeply spiritual folk.

Martial Arts Illustrated magazine has regular slots on Tao, TaiChi, QiGong and the internal side, good magazine that is for those interested in these things.

As far as recommending a school that's always going to be subjcetive.

Pakua's my first liove but there's only one contact dojo in England and that's in London.

Chris (Iron Shirt) Lomas in manchester is the real thing but for nyone else i'd say have a trawl on MartialTalk and find what's available locally that might suit you then give it a go.

Everywhere welcomes new members and most places offer a taster session free.

Edited January 14, 2013 by GrandmasterP

[GrandmasterP]

http://martialtalk.com/

 

Here's the link for MartialTalk forum

[Xandre Zezo]

"Martial arts practiced today in Western countries" are occasionally taught by top masters from China, and taught exactly the way they were taught in China before they were prohibited there and after they were allowed again. At least that's the way they are taught by the real teachers, though they are indeed taught any which way by everybody else. My taiji teacher is one of the real ones, and I can assure you there is 0% BS in what I've learned from him so far.

 

That said, just having a great teacher with great skill and a superb way of transmitting it is only pointing at the door -- the student is the one who has to walk through the door. It's not possible for most (whether Chinese or Westerners -- many of my classmates are Chinese) to do 8 hours a day, though it is indeed traditional. Of my teacher's students only one guy does that -- a Westerner -- he is absolutely obsessed with taiji. His skill grew fast, and keeps growing. He can most definitely and very easily kill anyone who doesn't have this level of skill in a life-and-death situation, and he can easily avoid it too (which is much more important -- it's about control of the situation, not about overpowering and hurting the opponent). If I wanted to catch up with his level, I'd have to do way more work... not seek another teacher in another place in another time. That would be quite unnecessary. I have the best at my fingertips, gods of migrations be blessed. But if I have lazy fingertips (which I do, among other lazy body parts I have), it's not my teacher's fault, is it?..

 

Just today though my taiji kicked in automatically and unexpectedly when I was doing some shopping. A guy vigorously darted with his cart from behind the edge of the isle and caught my foot from behind with the wheel, quite expertly though inadvertently, in a classic qinna entanglement that would have twisted my ankle if I hesitated to disentangle myself even for a split second. I didn't! The cart was still moving when I jumped, simultaneously rotating my foot out of the wheel's grip and from under the cart and toward my own body ("it's MY foot," as a mnemonic rule goes for the direction of the rotation out of a qinna), and landed 180 degrees in the opposite direction, facing the cart and the guy and smiling. He was just blinking and apoligizing in total bewilderment. I was bewildered myself. This move is from a routine I've just started learning, I had no idea my body already got it -- my mind hasn't yet!

The folks over on Rum Soaked Fist discuss training methods and so forth, it's pretty well agreed that most people learning any martial art will not be able to fight with it or come close to the skill of practitioners of old. It's true and sad, not something I particularly care about. I learn the internal arts not to fight but I will if need be. Granted, I learned to fight on the playground, on the street, and in bars before I learned any amount of taiji.

Hmnn, wonder how many 100's of dojo's he's visited in the U.S? Still martial arts is time consuming and if you're smart and not unlucky you tend to avoid life and death fights. I respect those who train 8 hours a day, but thats a high price to pay, particularly if you want a life outside. Your master may pity those who don't, others will pity those who spend all there time practicing.

 

The big movement in the West has been Mixed Martial Art (MMA) fighting which incorporates moves from different arts often w/ Brazilian Ju Jitsu as a firm base. Early on the Brazilian JJ wiped the floor with other styles in free style contests. Old styles fell with relative ease to it much to the surprise and shock of traditional teachers. Later as defenses become better it become neutralized. But here in the states the MMA fighters who train very hard and have tended to beat pure styles. These days it rare to see a pure style compete, they're simply outmatched.

 

Myself, I probably fall into the slacker category of martial artists, not that I'm actively training these days. Style was KI-Aikido, I probably trained maybe 12 hours a week at the dojo, a few more hours a week solo. I studied actively for 13 years. The training was more interested in life training then death matches. As long as you know the benefits and limitations and dare I say weaknesses of the art I think your fine. The problem comes when dojo's make claims that fill heads with grandiose ideas.

 

What I learned helped me immensely. Hard strikes, hard falls, done in a friendly environment at a time when my work life was high stress and I needed a place to blow off steam physically and mentally. Ki-Aikido allowed safe but hard contact. Not always realistic, but it include breathing, meditation and healing aspects, and those things are just likely to save my life as any martial technique.

 

It's interesting hear everyone's opinion it's good that you guys have found somewhere were you can train hard or know of places. These places are disappearing at an alarming rate and these days it's so difficult for a beginner to tell a bad school/good teacher from a good one . I'm sure many of us would love to go to Asia to learn from this masters but sometimes more often than not its difficult to do such things as we all have commitments and responsibilities. You often don't find Genuine Eastern Masters in West countries they are hard to find especially in London where I am currently based . I would like to learn Practical Tai Chi if anyone know any schools or has any information about Wu style tai chi Chuan academy bethnal green I would greatly appreciate the assistance

[thelerner]

Books on Westerners in search of Real Martial Arts.

 

Iron and Silk, book and movie by Mark Salzman moving to China to study Wushu

Angry White Pyjamas, book by Robert Twigger studying hard style Aikido in Japan

 

The Human Weapon is a good TV series about 2 trained MMA fighters traveling the world and learning various martial arts. It could easily been a shlocky show, but the respect the men show the various arts and teachers is very well done. Raising the bar head and shoulders above most reality TV. Shows include well known well arts like karate, Judo, as well Sambo, Silat, Krav Maga and Marine Martial arts. At the end both men have matches in the art they've studied.

 

 

Any others recommended? Books about the martial art experience rather then technique.

Edited January 14, 2013 by thelerner

[GrandmasterP]

"This very readable book lets those who know Dave know him a little more. If you don't know him you'll want to by the end of it. I've shared a bottle, a room and a dojo floor with the man and I've laughed cried and been scared all at the same time sometimes. I found his presence alone inspirational but best of all I have laughed till my stomach ached no matter how many times I've heard or read the stories.

Buy it, buy it now then get on the next course he takes and see the man not just talk but do".

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Born-Fighter-Dave-Hazard/dp/1844548724/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

[thelerner]

"This very readable book lets those who know Dave know him a little more. If you don't know him you'll want to by the end of it. I've shared a bottle, a room and a dojo floor with the man and I've laughed cried and been scared all at the same time sometimes. I found his presence alone inspirational but best of all I have laughed till my stomach ached no matter how many times I've heard or read the stories.

I see he comes from Shotokan Karate. I studied the style in highschool and was very happy to find a traditional Shotokan dojo for my kids to join. Not for martial prowess per se, there are holes in the training, but because there were constant messages and examples of courage, honor, hard work and impeccability. Lessons that happen to rarely in our society.

[GreytoWhite]

Xandre if you want to learn Practical Method the man to contact would be Chen Zhonghua, he can get you some information and he's very helpful. His taiji is very interesting, Hong Junsheng strayed rather far from the Chenjiagou methods and Chen Zhonghua was also a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang. It seems he doesn't really teach pure Hong or Feng methods. Very interesting.

 

http://practicalmethod.com/

 

Serge Augier has a disciple in London that is teaching all aspects of the lineage, his first name is Darren. While I have no experience with this lineage just the CHANCE to learn any amount of Ziranmen would be enough for me to go study there. Although apparently Serge prefers taiji over Ziranmen.

 

http://urbandaouk.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Paul Whitrod is also in London teaching several different styles of kung fu, he is well respected in the community.

 

http://www.paulwhitrod.com/

 

I know it's a bit far from London but Steve Rowe is a very knowledgeable fellow as well. If you ever make it out to Chatham I'd check him out.

 

http://shikon.com/

[Xandre Zezo]

Thanks for the recommendations guys I took a look and will definitely do my research.

 

In terms if mma do you guys feel that the martial arts mixed martial artists learn is legit. It must be quite hard to validate there techniques as the techniques are put all together to cater for one individual which for instance would destroy the economies of motion principle adopted in wing Chun or the stride motion of a hapkido practitioner what are your thoughts on this guys ?

[RobB]

Alex Kozma also here in Cambridge (1hr from London by train) but MithShrike has some good suggestions in his list. Serge is here for a 2 day seminar this weekend. Large circulation on Saturday and Bagua on Sunday.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[GrandmasterP]

Cheng Hsin's the veritable cojones del pero

 

Peter Ralston's indoor chappie Kevin McGee's at ours Sat 2nd March £35-00 for the full day or £15.00 for just the morning gig..

Tai Chi & Body Being 10.30 - 12.30

Art of Effortless Power part 1: 2.00- 3.30 & part 2: 4.00 - 5.30

If interested

Book via

[email protected]

[林愛偉]

Martial arts 2,000yrs ago up till the last 65yrs in China, were practiced for totally different reasons, with totally different cultural influences. Back then it was to refine the mind, be a great strategist, mature, last but not least, to be educated...of course an outcome was to be able to fight because fighting skill was needed to subdue the "enemy", not to show off and open a school..lol

 

Culturally, the character that we see for military wu 武, meant not to fight, but to stop fighting. Interesting? Not up for interpretation, the characters literally added to make up the word for Wu 武, meant to stop the spear, basically stopping a fight. So you learn strategies, methods, philosophy and add education to it and you have a system of combat which allows one to use less effort to attack/defend, as well as mature into a righteous individual. Of course not many follow that path, so they just become fighters, more focused on how many heads they can beat than really refining their intelligence.

 

Its true, today not many train as the old days...simply because we are not in the cultural situation to NEED to learn to fight. We have become a bit more cultured...some, and understand how not to entertain the idea of fighting for fame...unless its your job, for a sport, or you are a soldier.

 

In other words, lots of training is needed indeed, but what's more important is one's state of mind, and method inwhich to apply the mind to result in a more mindful skill.

 

Mindfulness, and Patience...for when an attack comes, anticipation of where it goes only allows it to get to its destination. One must disregard where it may go, and arrive at where it came from.

 

Besides all that, practice in every moment by applying mindfulness of physics, distancing, placement, pressure, spine, hips, waist and joint alignment...that would boost one's training up. hahaha

[Xandre Zezo]

Martial arts 2,000yrs ago up till the last 65yrs in China, were practiced for totally different reasons, with totally different cultural influences. Back then it was to refine the mind, be a great strategist, mature, last but not least, to be educated...of course an outcome was to be able to fight because fighting skill was needed to subdue the "enemy", not to show off and open a school..lol

 

Culturally, the character that we see for military wu 武, meant not to fight, but to stop fighting. Interesting? Not up for interpretation, the characters literally added to make up the word for Wu 武, meant to stop the spear, basically stopping a fight. So you learn strategies, methods, philosophy and add education to it and you have a system of combat which allows one to use less effort to attack/defend, as well as mature into a righteous individual. Of course not many follow that path, so they just become fighters, more focused on how many heads they can beat than really refining their intelligence.

 

Its true, today not many train as the old days...simply because we are not in the cultural situation to NEED to learn to fight. We have become a bit more cultured...some, and understand how not to entertain the idea of fighting for fame...unless its your job, for a sport, or you are a soldier.

 

In other words, lots of training is needed indeed, but what's more important is one's state of mind, and method inwhich to apply the mind to result in a more mindful skill.

 

Mindfulness, and Patience...for when an attack comes, anticipation of where it goes only allows it to get to its destination. One must disregard where it may go, and arrive at where it came from.

 

Besides all that, practice in every moment by applying mindfulness of physics, distancing, placement, pressure, spine, hips, waist and joint alignment...that would boost one's training up. hahaha

I definitely agree. It's down to the fact we don't have to fight to survive so most of us live soft life's sheltered and safe which means why don't have to learn a martial art to defend ourselves. Martial arts used to be for general and monks alike it was definitely a lifestyle choice I swear I've I could find one place that could train me how they used to train I'd live breath and train there

[GrandmasterP]

I reckon any MA is good especially for kids, it teaches them self-control and confidence plus respect for others.

Progress beings tangible rewards, they work at it, they get the grades.

Gets em out from in front of their TVs n consoles too.

The kids who come to Zen Archery class fall into two camps, the little sods and the ones who also do MA ( all of them do Shotokan Karate).

The MA kids are a pleasure to teach, the others are a pain in the proverbial.

[thelerner]

I definitely agree. It's down to the fact we don't have to fight to survive so most of us live soft life's sheltered and safe which means why don't have to learn a martial art to defend ourselves. Martial arts used to be for general and monks alike it was definitely a lifestyle choice I swear I've I could find one place that could train me how they used to train I'd live breath and train there

 

For that the short cut would be finding a place with an uchi deschi program, ie live in students. Its rare but they're out there.

[GrandmasterP]

http://www.kombatgroup.com/

 

Pretty reasonably priced long stay residentials here and elsewhere.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

if i could be a live-in martial arts student...



GOD IF ONLY... o_o

[Chen]

You may have a look in " you tube" , "A lesson with Kostas Part 1/2".

Kostas was always trying to make this clear,that is a different thing to practice an art as a sport or athlem and different thing to practice a martial art.

These two videos are an introduction to "Pammachon"

Sorry no Mo Pai stuff there, but people with experience will understand that there is not only a body movement.

Enjoy...

[AsheSkyler]

I took karate for about a year. Two nights a week, two hours each. The focus was primarily on scoring in point-sparring, and not much on self defense or full contact sparring. We only did the formal bow in once. I have a feeling the grand master would have been very angry if he'd ever seen one of our classes. My body felt great afterward and I was able to vent anger issues on the bag, but I always felt like I was missing something. I would love to get back into some kind of martial art, but only if I can find something more serious.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

A very similar, almost same experience i had with my first and only "formal" class. The instructor didnt want anyone genuinely getting hurt since he was operating out of a membership gym for non-members... so he focused more on the drills than sparring, and when it came to sparring we might as well have jsut stared each other down, since no takedowns, grabs, throws, or headshots were allowed...


On the plus side, i learned a valuable lesson: I dont have a worth-a-damn defense around my testicles! D:

[Xandre Zezo]

You may have a look in " you tube" , "A lesson with Kostas Part 1/2".

Kostas was always trying to make this clear,that is a different thing to practice an art as a sport or athlem and different thing to practice a martial art.

These two videos are an introduction to "Pammachon"

Sorry no Mo Pai stuff there, but people with experience will understand that there is not only a body movement.

Enjoy...

I took karate for about a year. Two nights a week, two hours each. The focus was primarily on scoring in point-sparring, and not much on self defense or full contact sparring. We only did the formal bow in once. I have a feeling the grand master would have been very angry if he'd ever seen one of our classes. My body felt great afterward and I was able to vent anger issues on the bag, but I always felt like I was missing something. I would love to get back into some kind of martial art, but only if I can find something more serious.

A very similar, almost same experience i had with my first and only "formal" class. The instructor didnt want anyone genuinely getting hurt since he was operating out of a membership gym for non-members... so he focused more on the drills than sparring, and when it came to sparring we might as well have jsut stared each other down, since no takedowns, grabs, throws, or headshots were allowed...

On the plus side, i learned a valuable lesson: I dont have a worth-a-damn defense around my testicles! D:

 

I think a very important part of a martial art is the practical application of it . I left my hapkido academy because although the throws grabs, joint locks kicks punches were all good the sparring was only one step sparring and no one had the heart to commit and it was constantly told to us that "we do not care about competitions this is for our self improvement " I agree with self improvement there's only so much semi sparring will help you improve . I have noticed throwing arts like aikido, hapkido, judo take many years to use against someone who has a true hurtful motive on you. throws often require perfect timing and bit of luck. There's another reason practicality is even more important

[ShenLung]

For that the short cut would be finding a place with an uchi deschi program, ie live in students. Its rare but they're out there.

 

Sensei has one live in student currently, and when the main dojo is built, there will be living quarters for at least half a dozen teachers + students, in addition to the regular "go to dojo" type students, possibly additional quarters for students who will not neccesarily be primary students, but have traveled to train at the dojo. Groundbreaking is still about a year or so away, depending upon the funds.