Letter from David Shen

[Trunk]

But making specific claims about material reality, such as "I have altered the molecular properties of water with my energy field" is very much within the domain of science. And having a claim like this validated, I agree with you, would have profound implications, much like you've described. And it's for these exact reasons, the enormously positive impact that the scientific validation of these miracles would have on public consciousness, ..

My observation is that, scientifically validated or personally experienced, proof of spirituality has a lot less impact on people's view than one would hope. Kirlian photography is a good example. It's been around since the 1940's, and clearly shows "chi", auras, etc. You'd think that everyone would just go, "ok, chi exists". Nope. It's relegated to an oddity along with "all that psychic faire stuff" and that's that.

 

It's similar with advanced teachers, they really get very little attention. Mark, for instance. He's powerful enough that everyone feels something profoundly when sitting with him, and he's got a good resume (teachers he's studied with, lineage). Totally open door, very advanced, cheap. In L.A. (population 13 million). How many people sit with him on a regular basis? 30-50. There should be well over 10x that at every sit.

 

I've seen the same thing with teachers who perform miracles (as well as do transmission) on a regular basis. Around 30 students.

 

It's the public.

They'll show up in droves, once a year, for a very few "headliner" teachers. Other than that, ...

*crickets*

[DentyDao]

[Wayfarer64]

Denty,

 

Now you wish to dictate my behavior?! I have not accused you of being a charlatan for what you claim I have raised issues of doubt concerning your abilities to understand what you claim because of the way you have addressed anyone and everyone who questions what you claim to know in any way.

 

This always indicates a lack of understanding.

 

How could either of us threaten each-other? I do not care so very much what anyone says on the web-(within reason) but I do care how people treat each-other in any cercumstance.You attack with no semblance of reasonable restraint or humility at every instance of doubt, rather than looking within yourself for why these issues come up. It is the very antithisis of Taoist practice to behave with such hubris.

 

I consulted the Yi Jing concerning this issue, and was given Kuan/Contemplation (no changing lines)

 

I quote in part...From Wilhelm/Baynes- Contemplation of the devine meaning underlining the workings of the universe gives a man who is called upon to influence others the means of producing like effects. This requires that power of inner concentration which religious contemplation develops in great men strong in faith. It enables them to apprehend the mysterious and devine laws of life, and by means of profoundest inner concentration they give expression to these laws in their own persons. Thus a hidden spiritual power emanates from them, influencing and dominating others without their being aware of how it happens...

 

This seems to be very pertanent to this thread.And our various takes on inner powers...

 

I do not get a positive vibe from you, and have made that clear. I do not believe your prayers would be of any benifit to me. Even if they were well meant.

 

I grant you no authority in these matters and claim none for myself. We are here to share and compare, if you have an agenda that doubt undermines, then get rid of your own doubts first, any others' doubts will be as water off a duck's ass...

[DentyDao]

 

It's similar with advanced teachers, they really get very little attention. Mark, for instance. He's powerful enough that everyone feels something profoundly when sitting with him, and he's got a good resume (teachers he's studied with, lineage).

 

I think Mark and the Hard Light crew are legit and totally cool. I didn't get a chance to sit with Mark when I was in LA last month. I checked his schedule when I was there, but there weren't any openings over the holiday. Next time definitly.

 

S

[DentyDao]

Denty,

 

I have raised issues of doubt concerning your abilities to understand what you claim

 

I do not care so very much what anyone says on the web

 

I do not get a positive vibe from you, and have made that clear.

 

Hey Wayfarer,

 

I think everybody here gets it. Just a thought. Careful, obsession can be harmful to your health. I did pray for you last night; I prayed for all beings, you included.

Edited January 23, 2007 by seandenty

[Smile]

You might not know that many masters feel that they take on the karma of their students. If the student is good and stays out of trouble the master will benefit too and, obviously this is a much more enjoyable alternative than the opposite for both the master and the student. If the student engages in misconduct, the belief is that the teacher is responsible. This is definitely the case in Mo Pai for example. If the student is injured when they follow the instructions of the master, the master takes in that karma too.

 

 

 

Of course Masters are responsible for what they teach. It especially true for spiritual teachings- if you teach people harmful techniques, you most certainly will go to one of the "hell" realms until the student "recovers" from the harm you've caused. It's even considered to be worse then killing a person, because the trap wrong spiritual techniques produce is so great that it will take many lifetimes to dissolve.

 

 

 

That's why most Masters see that and work with students on "one-on-one" basis. This way they can monitor the progress and help if something goes wrong. It's especially true with Daoist alchemy where attention to details is necessary. The HT style formulas that will apply to everyone the same is just as ridiculous as saying one shirt will fit every man alive. Or take sexual and iron shirt practices. If the master doesn't watch over you, you will get hurt. For that reason, any masters who are spiritually evolved will know about the consequences and will chose his students with wisdom. They will be the last ones in this world to "mass produce" their spiritual knowledge, and this has nothing to do with hording the information form the public eye.

 

Max

[DentyDao]

The HT style formulas that will apply to everyone the same is just as ridiculous as saying one shirt will fit every man alive. Or take sexual and iron shirt practices. If the master doesn't watch over you, you will get hurt. For that reason, any masters who are spiritually evolved will know about the consequences and will chose his students with wisdom. They will be the last ones in this world to "mass produce" their spiritual knowledge, and this has nothing to do with hording the information form the public eye.

 

An important point.

[Spectrum]

Hope in small things.

[DentyDao]

Edited January 23, 2007 by seandenty

[Lozen]

[DentyDao]

On October 31, 1517 a man named Martin Luther posted 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg. These theses challenged popular teachings of the Church on a variety of topics, including the authority of the pope. Basically he believed that salvation is a gift from God and one does not have to go to any human for salvation. I am not a Christian, but I have a direct line to God, or the Tao, or whatever you want to call it--as do you, as does every person.

 

If people want to go and chase healers or gurus or masters, fine. I'm not going to.

 

I could care less who someone wants to study with as long as they are serving.

 

Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Shelter the homeless. Take care of the sick.

 

And one more thing, the Invitation from Oriah Mountain Dreamer:

 

It doesn't interest me what you do for a living. I want to know what you ache for and if you dare to dream of meeting your heart's longing.

 

It doesn't interest me how old you are. I want to know if you will risk looking like a fool for love, for your dream, for the adventure of being alive.

 

It doesn't interest me what planets are squaring your moon. I want to know if you have touched the centre of your own sorrow, if you have been opened by life's betrayals or have become shrivelled and closed from fear of further pain.

 

I want to know if you can sit with pain, mine or your own, without moving to hide it, or fade it, or fix it.

 

I want to know if you can be with joy, mine or your own; if you can dance with wildness and let the ecstasy fill you to the tips of your fingers and toes without cautioning us to

be careful, be realistic, remember the limitations of being human.

 

It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can

disappoint another to be true to yourself. If you can bear the accusation of betrayal

and not betray your own soul. If you can be faithless and therefore trustworthy.

 

I want to know if you can see Beauty even when it is not pretty every day. And if you can source your own life from its presence.

 

I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand at the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, 'Yes.'

 

It doesn't interest me to know where you live or how much money you have. I want to know if you can get up after the night of grief and despair, weary and bruised to the bone and do what needs to be done to feed the children.

 

It doesn't interest me who you know or how you came to be here. I want to know if you will stand in the centre of the fire with me and not shrink back.

 

It doesn't interest me where or what or with whom you have studied. I want to know what sustains you from the inside when all else falls away.

 

I want to know if you can be alone with yourself and if you truly like the company you keep in the empty moments.

 

I think this kind of goes with out saying. Nobody has a monopoly on God and life is a beautiful wanderful adventure just the way it is without worrying about what others think of you.

Edited January 23, 2007 by seandenty

[Lozen]

I think this kind of goes with out saying.

 

Are you sure? I thought I needed a guru to be a real Jedi.

[DentyDao]

Are you sure? I thought I needed a guru to be a real Jedi.

 

Oh that was your point. Yes, you need a teacher if you what to be a 'Jedi.'

 

There are saints who reach a high level of achievement through a life of devotion and prayer on their own. This is very rare. maybe you are a saint in the making. If so, keep up the good work St. Lozen. Keep healing the sick and levitate a few times for me.

[Lozen]

You forgot the part about how your Jedi teachers are better than my Jedi teachers.

 

I don't levitate, by the way. No party tricks.

[DentyDao]

On October 31, 1517 a man named Martin Luther posted 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg. These theses challenged popular teachings of the Church on a variety of topics, including the authority of the pope. Basically he believed that salvation is a gift from God and one does not have to go to any human for salvation. I am not a Christian, but I have a direct line to God, or the Tao, or whatever you want to call it--as do you, as does every person.

 

If people want to go and chase healers or gurus or masters, fine. I'm not going to.

 

 

Martin Luther believed in saints and in Jesus and the benifit of miricle power. In fact Jesus was hi Guru. And he believed in offering money to the Church and paying the priests for spiritual instruction. He just felt that people shouldn't have to pay to get out of Hell. He was probably a neikung practioner like the Orthodox Greek Christians are. Luther used the Greek Bible by the way.

 

Please stop taking what I have to say personally. It makes no difference to me whether you are interested in meeting a master. You are no less of a person for it, but don't meddle just to preserve your own views.

 

S

[DentyDao]

You forgot the part about how your Jedi teachers are better than my Jedi teachers.

 

I don't levitate, by the way. No party tricks.

 

Get over yourself. If your teachers are really great wonderful, more power to you. Levitation is what used to happen to St. Teresa of Avila when she became so full of love that she literally floated for hours in divine rapture. You think it's any different for the masters I'm talking about? They are wonderful loving human beings who are very devoted to God.

 

And I suppose you think healing the sick is a party trick too right? The masters of all traditions healed the sick with miricle power; sickness is not part of their reality. That's how high love can grow. To dismiss this and continue to meddle doesn't really make sense. It's a very unskillful view.

Edited January 23, 2007 by seandenty

[Lozen]

I read St Teresa's autobiography in college, and I don't remember her writing any rants about how her master was better than other people's masters.

 

I know a lot of people who can heal the sick, and you'll never see them on television or the front cover of Tricycle or having big retreats in China. Or writing rants about how other people are unskillful and how much better they are.

[DentyDao]

I read St Teresa's autobiography in college, and I don't remember her writing any rants about how her master was better than other people's masters.

 

I know a lot of people who can heal the sick, and you'll never see them on television or the front cover of Tricycle or having big retreats in China. Or writing rants about how other people are unskillful and how much better they are.

 

Actually she was pretty convinced her master was the be all and end all. That's why they call him the son of God.

 

Lozen, I'm not saying my masters are better than yours. Stop buying into this idea. If you know a lot of people who can heal the sick I'm really happy for you. Just like I'm totally blown away by Mat Blacks teacher who sounds amazing.

 

Maybe you should just try sharing your experiences instead of focusing on me so much.

[Lozen]

[seadog]

I've just started to study with Matt Blacks teacher here in Australia.My wife has Multiple sclerosis and we thought that for her to be around the positive energy and practice some of daoyin exercises would do her good, which it has.One evening our Master had us drink some tap water which he had charged with his qi. From the taste we each had after drinking the water he diagnosed any possible weakness we may have in our bodies.This was all quite extrodinary as each of us tasted different things.Some salty,some bitter,some sour. so on.

When I tasted the water it was distinctly salty on the first sip after that it just tasted like normal tap water accepted that I was left with a tingling in my mouth.Master Tao gave me my diagnoses which has aided my practise and in the choice of foods I eat and how I choose to expend my energy. Cheers Seadaog

[DentyDao]

Just for future reference. I'm not making any claims that I or any master I've shared about are 'better' than anyone here or anyone elses teacher in the sense that what I have is some how intrinsically more valuable than what you have.

 

I'm saying that in the specific area of Daoism and even spiritual practice in general there are some with more knowledge and experience and it might be interesting to examine that. This is not a reflection on your religion.

 

What I'm not saying is that you are some how damned if you don't practice under one of my masters. This is such limited take on what I have shared here. I have included the recognition that there are many masters and systems that are excellent. I have great respect for the high level beings around world of all traditions. I'm in awe of the Christain tradition with it's saints and mystics; the Buddhist traditions with it's enlightened beings; the Muslem tradition with it's holy profits; the Hindu tradition with it's great yogis. I believe that we all have equal access to these things if we want to. Please stop making everything I say into a contest about whether or not your belief system is valid and find your own peace.

 

I have said that great teachers and immortal beings are very rare. I think that probably is a a source of frustration for a small minorty here, but it's silly to keep focusing in on my writing here as some kind personal insult. We should all be thankful that beings like this even exist.

 

It's crazy to say that all beings are on the same spiritual level. Are Gandi and Hilter both equally spiritually evolved with the same karma and plight. Are they both in bliss and equanimity? No, there are degrees of human evolution. There are adults and children; there are enlightened beings and human beings; there are saints and there are hungry ghosts. Stop pretending all reality is one big soup where everything is equal and the same and great. It's not.

 

Be like the wise ant who knows the sugar from the sand. Have the ability to discriminate; if you don't your lost.

 

S

 

I do know a lot of people who can heal the sick, and I write about them a lot.

 

So, are you saying that your masters are God?

 

Anyway, here's a quote from St. Teresa:

She's not saying, "How dare you not go out and study under Sean Denty's master" is she?

 

And another:

 

Again, I see no mention of "Sean's masters" here. Hmmmm.

 

 

Are you drunk?

 

I've just started to study with Matt Blacks teacher here in Australia.My wife has Multiple sclerosis and we thought that for her to be around the positive energy and practice some of daoyin exercises would do her good, which it has.One evening our Master had us drink some tap water which he had charged with his qi. From the taste we each had after drinking the water he diagnosed any possible weakness we may have in our bodies.This was all quite extrodinary as each of us tasted different things.Some salty,some bitter,some sour. so on.

When I tasted the water it was distinctly salty on the first sip after that it just tasted like normal tap water accepted that I was left with a tingling in my mouth.Master Tao gave me my diagnoses which has aided my practise and in the choice of foods I eat and how I choose to expend my energy. Cheers Seadaog

 

Remarkable,

 

I have some friends in Austrailia who might be interested in meeting your teacher. I will definitly pass this along. So amazing.

[Lozen]

I never said everything is equal and the same and great. But I do think God reaches out to each and every one of us. The difference is people's CHOICES.

 

It's pretty sad when people think their masters, and not God, are the ones doing these things. I think St. Teresa would have frowned on that.

 

Are you drunk?

 

No, but I did take homeopathic spirit distilled from acorn kernels about a week ago.

[DentyDao]

I do know a lot of people who can heal the sick, and I write about them a lot.

 

So, are you saying that your masters are God?

 

No, I'm actually not if you can believe it.

 

Anyway, here's a quote from St. Teresa:

She's not saying, "How dare you not go out and study under Sean Denty's master" is she?

 

No, and neither am I. Again, have you been drinking this evening?

 

And another:

 

Again, I see no mention of "Sean's masters" here. Hmmmm.

 

Are you just messing with me?

 

 

I do think God reaches out to each and every one of us. The difference is people's CHOICES.

 

Of course it is dear.

 

It's pretty sad when people think their masters, and not God, are the ones doing these things. I think St. Teresa would have frowned on that.

 

In Buddhism we believe that the nature of our thinking or the nature of mind is God. All the masters I have met believe in and are devoted to a higher power. I think I made that really overly clear to anyone with basic reading skills in my previous posts. The masters I'm taking about would be appalled or dumb founded if anyone tried to worship them. This happens sometimes when David introduces people to a master and they become overwhelmed and start getting down on their knees. It's very embaressing to them and they really don't know what to make of it.

 

No, but I did take homeopathic spirit distilled from acorn kernels about a week ago.

 

It may have been spiked with LSD.

Edited January 24, 2007 by seandenty

[Lozen]

It may have been spiked with LSD.

 

That doesn't sound very Buddhist.

[DentyDao]

That doesn't sound very Buddhist.

I think you have Buddhism confused with the hippy movement of the 1960's. We're not sheep who just roll over and spread our legs when were being attacked.