"Compassion means skillful action" - huh?

[Owledge]

That statement keeps my mind busy. It's bothering me.

There's an apparent original definition of what compassion is - com-passion - having feelings/passion with other people, being emotionally affected by others' emotional state, a kind of connection - having an understanding of their feelings. Closely related to empathy, maybe including acting on it, like a natural consequence. - You know, kinda unnecessary to discuss.

 

Like, if you are in distress, you feel pain. Of course you want to help yourself. Then you learn of someone else being in the same painful situation you are in, and compassion makes you realize that and naturally want to help them, just as you want to help yourself.

 

Now someone puts great emphasis on being skillful in all areas of life and comes up with the statement "Compassion means skillful action." What the hell is going on here? Mincing words? Replacing meanings? Either there's supposed to be a deeper meaning implied and an unwillingness to say it without making cryptic statements, or it's an attempt to feel compassionate about oneself without actually acting compassionate, by replacing one meaning with another one.

 

I consider it mental clarity to be aware of the simple and obvious truth:

"Compassion is compassion and skillful action is skillful action."

 

Skillful action is action that leads to reaching a set goal, whatever that goal might be. Unskillfulness means wanting to reach a set goal, and failing. That's totally different from the meaning of compassion - it's neutral towards it.

[Sanzon]

Nice thread Owledge. My interpretation would be second guessing where the people stating this are coming from. Perhaps akin with the differences between sympathy & empathy. Empathy may help someone move from where they are at through being able to relate to someone, sympathy may reinforce where they are at. Pity is closer to sympathy than empathy is, and pity may not be as helpful as it is a hindrance to someone, despite it's genuineness & good intention. Skillful action? Possibly knowing the difference between the two, and knowing why course of action may be helpful. Knowing what to say & when. Knowing when to hold back. Knowing when to encourage someone or actually intervene when necessary. I find it a blanket statement and could be rephrased as "Compassion can be a skillful art". My thoughts only, keen to hear other's perspectives too.

[Taomeow]

Compassion means skillful action is correct.

 

What passes for compassion instead much of the time is neurotic projection and emotional diarrhea.

 

"Empathy without relief is like mustard without beef" -- old proverb, a wise one.

 

A girlfriend of mine developed a neurological problem, which first manifested as fainting spells. The first time she fainted, she came to to find her head throbbing and adorned with a huge bump from hitting it on something hard, and furthermore, her husband on the floor beside her, in a swoon. Turned out that he was so compassionate that when he saw her faint, he promptly followed suit. Instead of being helped with skillful action, this woman had to get busy resuscitating and then comforting her "compassionate" spouse. If he got her an ice pack for the bump on her head and two aspirin, and then got busy researching who to consult so as to get a correct diagnosis (something that only happened a year later, after much unnecessary suffering), that would have been skillful action -- true compassion, not the feckless neurotic kind.

 

Does this make sense to you?..

[Sanzon]

Haha, nice analogy!

[Owledge]

@Taomeow

Apart from your example sounding very extreme, more like an empath lacking self-control:

This would make compassion into a thing of the mind, an area where what you believe is the right course of action better turn out to actually be the skillful one. If you equal skillful action with compassion in this way, then compassion becomes goal-oriented, which has a bad vibe to me. Why not let skillful action stand for itself? Why does it have to dress in something that it's not? There can be a relationship between the two, that's all. If you give compassion a goal-oriented flavor, it can destroy compassion. That's what I meant: It is confusing things and that confusion can ruin clarity. Straightforward action might require sacrifice and/or courage, and the mind can come up with all kinds of reasonings why a more complicated, elaborate course of action should be preferrable.

I think this stands against some statements made about true masters, in the Dao De Jing for example: They act without calculating. The innately know what to do and do it, get the job done, move on, without politics or strategy. It flows naturally. And from my examination of many life situations this rings true and is confirmed. Sometimes the most effective course of action is so simplistic and straightforward, so much without pondering and planning, that it almost appears insulting to some. Maybe people afraid to take that route have a false sense of not wanting to meddle with other people's karma. In a way it's a fear of responsibility or attachment, maybe unjustified. Our ability to change people's lives stems from action, to be an influencing factor. Being afraid of fulfilling that role is self-limiting. You could compare it to the metaphor of 'getting your hands dirty'. Dirt is earth. It is grounding. ;-)

 

The world is full of this:

"Please help! I need this thing."

- "No, but here's what you should do:"

 

Those people better be sure they know better than that person what the person needs.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Owledge

[deci belle]

Skillful means is the key word here. Compassion is the redundancy. Someone here needs to decide what the context is.

 

If the context is buddhism of enlightened skillful means, Taomeow has set us on the correct context of application.

 

Emotionalism is ill-suited to approach the necessities of even conventional effective compassion, much less that of skillful means arriving at the middle way of open clear sincerity.

 

Skillful means is the goal of compassionate enlightening activity adapting to circumstances. Its application is spontaneous, suited to and accomplished within the context of the situation itself. What is accomplished is the freeing of potential from the matrix of karmic evolution.

 

In practical terms, skillful means is compassion in action because one sees the situation in terms of the situation itself without engaging selfish projection.

 

Skillful means is the epitome of compassion in that the effect is impeccable efficiency without extraneous cloying psychological ramification.

[三江源]

Symbiosis isnt compassion.

 

Enmeshment isnt compassion.

 

That's called 'merging'.

 

The husband who fainted was unconscious, before he fainted too.

 

Compassion is conscious.

[Owledge]

Interesting contributions.

 

I still believe if you pour oil and water into a glass, you have a cocktail, not a smoothie.

 

 

I mean... "How do I make my compassion more efficient?" - that sounds so wrong.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Owledge

[deci belle]

Interesting contributions.

 

I still believe if you pour oil and water into a glass, you have a cocktail, not a smoothie.

 

 

I mean... "How do I make my compassion more efficient?" - that sounds so wrong.

[Vmarco]

I consider it mental clarity to be aware of the simple and obvious truth:

"Compassion is compassion and skillful action is skillful action."

 

It is obvious that the majority on TTB will not allow the clarity to discuss the subject of compassion,...and thus my contribution on this thread will likely not continue.

 

The truth about compassion is this,...there is a relative compassion,...a man-made invention that is as real as any illusion within maya. And then there is real compassion. As most cannot get beyond their sentient based indoctrinations, most condemn real compassion, and enforce relative or unreal compassion.

 

Genuine interest in compassion demands attention on the world as it really is,...whereas sentient beings predominantly focus on the illusory world of maya.

 

You are where your attention is, and where your attention is, you are.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25990-bodhisattva/?hl=%2Bvmarco+%2Bcompassion#entry387552

 

Why bother having a thread on compassion,...among those who have no intention of wanting to understand the nature of compassion.

 

According to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, real compassion means seeing the world as it really is.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Vmarco

[Owledge]

Funny.

[Aetherous]

According to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, real compassion means seeing the world as it really is.

 

Nope.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

my 2 c -- One needs to keep to the skillful action of their own "root" to know what is "the skillful action to take" in order to help someone. Perhaps this is what was meant. It's easy to get emotionally entangled in an attempt to interpret what someone wants while missing what they actually need. Like they might want to go back to their spouse who beat them unconscious, but helping them do so would be unskillful and stupid. By keeping to the inner sage we can have a better chance of seeing the consequences of our actions before taking these actions.

 

This does not mean that we need to shun all feelings of love for other people, as some might interpret in an attempt to "do the right thing" as they interpret it. It's like knowing when the kettle is whistling and when to leave it alone.

 

Neither extreme of cold-blooded logic nor irrational emotionalism needs to be followed. Yin in yang and yang in yin.

[Owledge]

Like they might want to go back to their spouse who beat them unconscious, but helping them do so would be unskillful and stupid. By keeping to the inner sage we can have a better chance of seeing the consequences of our actions before taking these actions.

It's also wise to consult the 'outer sage'. That way we don't have to make assumptions about others or our own inner sage's judgment.

Because the funny thing is that, in the example chosen by you, what makes you make the general assumption that letting them go back to their spouse would be unskillful and stupid? All that this reflects is a guess about likeliness of short-term results. By expecting a certain outcome of your actions and basing your choice on that only, you fade out respect for the other people involved. Then the focus is on fulfilling your own set goal. You know what I mean? Life is full of surprises, and ignoring this will align your behavior to that perceived reality.

It's a tricky thing.

[Vmarco]

Nope.

 

For the meticulous, I'll revise that so it is irrefutable:

 

According to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, real compassion arises from seeing the world as it really is. Without seeing the world as it really is, real compassion is impossible.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Vmarco

[Aetherous]

Nope. And you're being reported for calling me anal...

[Birch]

Oh man. Seriously, compassion requires definition? I suppose it does now. Taomeow's story was a tale of compassionnocompassion.

 

--opinion---

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

web decided to "post" my words by deleting them; so, paraphrased:




Unless your actiosn are with teh intent to resolve a problem that another body is experiencing, you cannot be compassionate.

why?

Because your actions lack a key ingredient: Passion.



Edit: aw y'know what? feckit im too pissed @ interidiot to worry abotu typoes

[Birch]

Don't even try to discuss stuff with me if yer ranting Mr North. Please to to do when mind is clear:-)

Many thanks,

 

K

[Owledge]

Unless your actiosn are with teh intent to resolve a problem that another body is experiencing, you cannot be compassionate.

 

why?

 

Because your actions lack a key ingredient: Passion.

Your first statement is fine, but your second one not so much. You're saying actions with the intent to solve a problem of your own disprove the presence of passion?

How about this?:

passion + empathy = compassion

 

No empathy: You can be passionate about your own goals and well-being, but have no incentive to help others.

No passion: You feel and understand the suffering of other beings but have no impulse trying to alleviate it - neither yours nor others.

 

An emo who writes dark poetry and mourns the state life is in - that could be an example of empathy without passion. Unless you see writing that kind of poetry as passion. But focused on the alleviation of the pain, it would definitely apply.

A rich guy saying stuff like: "Man, it rocks being rich! I pity all those miserable fools who don't get their ass off the couch to become rich, too." - that would be an example of passion without empathy I guess.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Owledge

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

 

Your first statement is fine, but your second one not so much. You're saying actions with the intent to solve a problem of your own disprove the presence of passion?

How about this?:

passion + empathy = compassion

 

No empathy: You can be passionate about your own goals and well-being, but have no incentive to help others.

No passion: You feel and understand the suffering of other beings but have no impulse trying to alleviate it - neither yours nor others.

 

 

Others. if your intent is to help others, you have passion + empathy.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

@-K-:

only a brief rant at the internet which wasted my time and words. it was all well enough paraphrased with what i wrote though.... might have saved everyoen a little time actually LOL


I'll edit out the rant actually

Edited January 20, 2013 by Northern Avid Judo Ant

[Owledge]

By the way, the Opera web browser is quite good at restoring written-but-not-sent postings. Sometimes happens that I write something in a text field and the webpage somehow messes up, and then I push the backwards button and the text is there. Opera is great in those regards. Not perfect, but works most times.

 

The forum's new quote function sucks, though.

[Jetsun]

I have heard said that that the most basic form of compassion is to pay attention, its as simple as that, personally I find people who openly listen to me far more compassionate than those that try to fix all my problems. The most compassionate person I ever met was simply open and available to others all the time, so his heart shined like a lamp on all things without discrimination, whereas most other peoples hearts turn on and off like a spotlight depending on what's infront of them.

[C T]

Compassion.

 

Knowing the exact direction where arising thoughts and actions would lead and end result of such, whether it involves only oneself or others. It can be challenging when one tries to think and act (for self/for others) with diminished clarity.

 

Isn't the lack of knowing the cause of much ignorance? Much is threatened when/where ignorance abounds.

 

For someone to want to act with the intention of reaching the best possible outcomes requires education. Not the academic type, but an education of the heart (not the physical one). The heart instinctively and intuitively knows the right way always. All the good we have in life is directed from heart. All the right decisions (in the end) one could have made but did not, is also those that first arose from heart.

 

Hence, the ignoring of heart advice can be detriment to letting compassion develop in oneself. I think they go together, each nurturing the other, balancing each other... listening to heart, and yielding to compassionate motives.

 

Compass ion.

Edited January 20, 2013 by C T

[Apech]

Oh man. Seriously, compassion requires definition? I suppose it does now. Taomeow's story was a tale of compassionnocompassion.

 

--opinion---

 

 

Sounded like concussion - compassion to me LOL.