"Compassion means skillful action" - huh?

[Apech]

I think the best way of putting it is compassion as skilful means.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Apech

[Marblehead]

The husband who fainted was unconscious, before he fainted too.

I just had to repeat this. So cool!!! (And many times true. Hehehe.)

[Marblehead]

The truth about compassion is this,...there is a relative compassion,...a man-made invention that is as real as any illusion within maya. And then there is real compassion. As most cannot get beyond their sentient based indoctrinations, most condemn real compassion, and enforce relative or unreal compassion.

Well then. However, isn't it better to have some than none at all?

[Marblehead]

Because your actions lack a key ingredient: Passion.

 

I reserve my passion for my ladies.

 

My compassion has few limits.

[Marblehead]

I have heard said that that the most basic form of compassion is to pay attention, ...

Excellent. Sometimes all that is needed is for a person to have someone who will listen to them.

[三江源]

According to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, real compassion arises from seeing the world as it really is. Without seeing the world as it really is, real compassion is impossible.

 

I am genuinely having a hard time understanding why people are rejecting this truth. It seems so obviously true, to me.

 

Does this rejection of this idea come from a fear that all our kindness and empathy and good intent is to no avail, because we only able to offer something partial? Because if partial is all I've got.. well, so be it. It doesnt mean I have to deny something fuller exists.

 

Is this the problem ,really, with the above statement by VMarco? Is anybody willing to see the truth in it?

 

 

Why do people look at the photo of Ramana Maharishi a lot.. the one where he is bare shouldered and looking with direct gaze into the camera.

Does he seem compassionate because he sees the world as it really is, just as simple as that? or no?

 

 

Is there some rejection here of the concept of 'real compassion'... does that feel llike a distinction which is just unacceptable because it relegates all the other compassion to a lesser realm? Does it matter if there is lesser compassion and greater? Do we bridle at the thought that our compassion is lesser? The greater compassion contains all. We are part of the greater.

 

Do we feel that our level of compassion is as developed as Ramana Maharishi? If not.. wherein lies the difference?

[Marblehead]

It is my opinion that it is nearly impossible to have the trait of universal compassion (what Vmarco's quote is speaking to) when viewing the world as it really is. Therefore I have no problem with saying that my compassion is limited. (I would be unable to feel compassion for the rapist who just raped an eleven year old girl.) And because of this I must state that my compassion has limits.

 

Sure, we have seen and heard of those whos compassion is without limits. That fine. Not all of us can attain such standards.

[三江源]

putting them in resistance, which is only likely to create suffering and increase attachment to illusion.

 

The issue of resistance! excellent one to discuss. What do we do when our resistance is triggered, if we are concerned with growth!?

 

 

Mara. (Tib. du) Difficulties encountered by the practitioner. The Tibetan word means

heavy or thick. In Buddhism mara symbolizes the passions that overwhelm human beings

as well as everything that hinders the arising of wholesome roots and progress on the path

to enlightenment. There are four kinds: skandha-mara, which is incorrect view of self;

klesha-mara, which is being overpowered by negative emotions; matyu-mara, which is

death and interrupts spiritual practice; and devaputra-mara, which is becoming stuck in

the bliss that comes from meditation.

[suninmyeyes]

For me compassion is simply compassion -- when a person does something for someone or enviroment without selfish motive .

 

As I have said in other post recently -- compassion IMO has been expirienced mostly by all at some point in our life and it is just the matter cultivating it . Some people ar more compassionate , some less for sure . Everyone is different .

I dont like term real compassion as cat and Vmarco state as it does have a unecesarry lofty ring about it that has been misinterpreted by some that it may include some sort of achieving .

Instead IMO compassion should be of one of our foremost values in regular life and regular choice of action .

 

As well as I dont believe that anyone can see life as it really is ,

becouse who is there to see reality ?

 

However the fact that some have more clarity than others is undinable .

[三江源]

I dont like term real compassion as cat and Vmarco state as it does have a unecesarry lofty ring about it that has been misinterpreted by some that it may include some sort of achieving .

 

 

yes but.. the 'lofty ring' clearly carries a negative projection. Is the negativity in this projection really necessary? How could it be? From where does the negativity spring?

 

and yes, real compassion would be an achievement. And everybody practices in order to achieve something.

 

we talk about achieving, all the time on this forum. It's what we are about.

 

achieving clarity, achieving simplicity, achieving clear ever available heart space...

 

Instead IMO compassion should be of one of our foremost values in regular life and regular choice of action .

 

I agree with this, and I dont see the word 'instead' as being pertinent.

 

As well as I dont believe that anyone can see life as it really is ,

becouse who is there to see reality ?

If there was no-one there to see reality, there would also be no-one there to hear any 'lofty ring', that mara would have dissolved.

[suninmyeyes]

yes but.. the 'lofty ring' clearly carries a negative projection. Is the negativity in this projection really necessary? How could it be? From where does the negativity spring?

It springs from achievment versus using what we already have more often . Very simple .

 

and yes, real compassion would be an achievement. And everybody practices in order to achieve something.

Not everybody , some cultivate as one would tend to a plant.

 

we talk about achieving, all the time on this forum. It's what we are about.

 

achieving clarity, achieving simplicity, achieving clear ever available heart space...

I really think that achieving is predominatley (not always) a wrong concept and this is where a lot of todays spirituality fails and a lot of spiritual neurosis are born , accompanied with various guilt trips . Maybe resolve ,take it easy or tune into is a better aproach in general.

 

 

I agree with this, and I dont see the word 'instead' as being pertinent.

 

If there was no-one there to see reality, there would also be no-one there to hear any 'lofty ring', that mara would have dissolved.

I was just pointing that there is noone to see reality . It is practicaly impossible as there is onlooker and reality involved in such action .

We can only embody a greater degree of clarity and compassion and be more transparent , but not invisable as that would mean non existance.

[suninmyeyes]

I think as long as you keep the "without selfish motive" in mind you are discussing real compassion. Or at least it is much more likely. Many people "help" others with selfish motives though, and try to pass it off as "compassionate" when it is really just a desire to control others. It is also possible that an act that is meant to help another will truly hinder them, as what I mentioned above. While the intention behind the act may be good, it may not truly be of service.

 

Take for example someone who is suffering because they have become addicted to heroin. They have no supply and are suffering greatly in withdrawal from the drug they believe they must have. Is it more compassionate to leave them suffering or to help them get more drugs and alleviate their pain? Compassion is not always a simple matter.

You may have misread me or I may have not explained myself enough I did not say it is always simple , but what I said is that : compassion is simply compassion . It is always without selfish motive otherwise its not compassion but something else . It is just that it manifests in people at different degrees. That is big difference.

 

Compassion is always natural and spontanious and uncontrived -- now that what propmts compassion may involve a lot of thinking sometimes or deliberation and sometimes especially when we soften a little and sharpen in awerness -- it may come easily and become simple .

 

edit: funny you should mention heroin anecdote , as some kind of similar situation involving someone dear to me years ago took place and this was the first time that I took a totally seemingly uncomapssionte action in order to help.

Edited January 20, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[Vmarco]

Compassion.

 

Knowing the exact direction where arising thoughts and actions would lead and end result of such, whether it involves only oneself or others. It can be challenging when one tries to think and act (for self/for others) with diminished clarity.

 

Isn't the lack of knowing the cause of much ignorance? Much is threatened when/where ignorance abounds.

 

In the prajnaparamita practice of Buddhism, knowledge is synonymous with ignorance, thus real compassion is not arrive at through knowledge, but uncovering that which is beyond knowledge. Right Actions, although important, are relative.

 

For example, consider the Lojong,...there is the Absolute Lojong, and the Relative. Although the Relative gives a foundation for understanding the Absolute, they do not, by themselves uncover the Absolute. Same with the 4 Noble Truths and 8 Fold Path. The 4 Noble Truths, which in one sentence is: that suffering is a consequence of the desire for things to be other than they are, cannot be realized by living the (relative) 8 Fold Path along,...it is merely a beginning.

 

If there was only one turning of the wheel of Dharma (Theravada), our predicament would be dire. For myself, there is no goal to secure a better place in my next life,...my goal as it were, is to wake up in this one. That doesn't mean I negate the 8 Fold Path, but merely don't focus on it. I'm already aware of Right view, attention, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness and concentration,...or moreso, when I am not. Thus my focus is on the 4 Noble Truths, and seeing the world as it is, which is not about the 8 Fold Path.

 

Again,...the 4 Noble Truths are Absolute,....the 8 Fold Path is Relative.

 

"Relative and absolute,

These the two truths are declared to be.

The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,

For the intellect is grounded in the relative." Shantideva

 

Focusing on relative compassion will never lead to the uncovering of absolute compassion. There is nothing wrong with providing relative compassion, however, not only is relative compassion is significantly enhance by understanding that it is not absolute (real) compassion, but encourages the uncovering of real compassion.

 

Again,...According to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, real compassion arises from seeing the world as it really is. Without seeing the world as it really is, real compassion is impossible.

[三江源]

 

yes but.. the 'lofty ring' clearly carries a negative projection. Is the negativity in this projection really necessary? How could it be? From where does the negativity spring?

It springs from achievment versus using what we already have more often . Very simple . the negativity springs from an egoic misconstruction of the use of term achievement.. assuming it to of necccessity mean 'adding to self' of 'changing self' rather than 'purifying self'.. is that what you mean?

 

and yes, real compassion would be an achievement. And everybody practices in order to achieve something.

Not everybody , some cultivate as one would tend to a plant. ha ha! and why do we tend to a plant?!

 

we talk about achieving, all the time on this forum. It's what we are about.

 

achieving clarity, achieving simplicity, achieving clear ever available heart space...

I really think that achieving is predominatley (not always) a wrong concept and this is where a lot of todays spirituality fails and a lot of spiritual neurosis are born , accompanied with various guilt trips . Maybe resolve ,take it easy or tune into is a better aproach in general. ah, suninmyeyes....

you say a 'better aproach in general'... how could anything be better than anything else, unless we had an objective in mind. something can only be 'better' if we are in a relative state, which means we are measuring. If we are measuring, it means we have something in mind against which to compare.. if we seek a better approach.. then we are trying to approach something.. something we seek to achieve..

 

 

I agree with this, and I dont see the word 'instead' as being pertinent.

 

If there was no-one there to see reality, there would also be no-one there to hear any 'lofty ring', that mara would have dissolved.

I was just pointing that there is noone to see reality . It is practicaly impossible as there is onlooker and reality involved in such action .

We can only embody a greater degree of clarity and compassion and be more transparent , but not invisable as that would mean non existance.

I understand that you are balking at the word 'achieve' which seems too narrowly directive and over focused .. with connotations of false yang, egoic drive, traps of attachment to success and competition.

 

And it would be possible to say, that some of your friends who go for months at a time into the wild alone to meditate etc have done good work, allowing themselves to achieve simplicity.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It's also wise to consult the 'outer sage'. That way we don't have to make assumptions about others or our own inner sage's judgment.

Because the funny thing is that, in the example chosen by you, what makes you make the general assumption that letting them go back to their spouse would be unskillful and stupid? All that this reflects is a guess about likeliness of short-term results. By expecting a certain outcome of your actions and basing your choice on that only, you fade out respect for the other people involved. Then the focus is on fulfilling your own set goal. You know what I mean? Life is full of surprises, and ignoring this will align your behavior to that perceived reality.

It's a tricky thing.

Agreed. I just said "helping them to go back" as in feeling exactly as they feel and actively moving them towards what they want, in that case would likely not be so good. But from a grounded perspective, one would be able to better determine the best course of action or inaction. This may be the "skillfulness" referred to.

[Aetherous]

I am genuinely having a hard time understanding why people are rejecting this truth. It seems so obviously true, to me.

 

My issue with it, for one is that "compassion" in the English language ONLY refers to what the Buddhists call "relative bodhicitta" or "karuna". It never refers to absolute bodhicitta.

 

"Bodhichitta is a Sanskrit word; bodhi means “enlightenment” and chitta means “mind” or “thought.” "

 

"Relative bodhichitta is the actual manifestation of loving-kindness and compassion for all beings. Absolute bodhichitta is the realization of emptiness as the profound true nature of reality."

 

- Sherab, Khenchen Palden; Rinpoche, Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal (2010-09-16). The Buddhist Path: A Practical Guide from the Nyingma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. NBN_Mobi_Kindle. Kindle Edition.

[Apech]

My issue with it, for one is that "compassion" in the English language ONLY refers to what the Buddhists call "relative bodhicitta" or "karuna". It never refers to absolute bodhicitta.

 

 

That's true but it does not mean they are separate. Relative and absolute are in the eye of beholder so to speak. In other words we recognise compassion as existing in the relative world, it is familiar to us, in the same way as a car or a tree is familiar. So in a relative (and correct) way we see an awakened person and say that person is compassionate. What we recognise is what arises from their enlightened mind. The exercise of pure compassion is selfless, spontaneous and real. Everything else is a shadow.

 

Practicing compassion or resolving to arouse compassion/bodhicitta is something else. Its as if we know that we cannot act as a bodhisattva but we are going to wish to and try to. Making mistakes in the respect is not only inevitable but also not a problem provided you apply your mind to what happens. Its the same as if you practice generosity ... if you think you are doing it to help people you will get a shock ... but if you do it to awaken something in yourself which responds to acts of compassion, generosity, patience etc. you will start to learn quite quickly what its all about.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Apech

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

oh yeah... i guess i had a good answer all along.... it's just not in the body of my text but my signature n_n oh well, carrion haha

[Aaron]

Nope. And you're being reported for calling me anal...

 

 

He never called you anal. There you go with the internet bullying again. Stop threatening to report people, simply because you see some sort of slight that isn't there. (Although in a roundabout way it was probably referring to you, but it wasn't a direct insult, so you wont get very far by reporting him.)

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Compassion means skillful action is a very confusing phrase, but despite what many have said, it is a true statement. Think of it along these terms. When I was a young man learning to play basketball, my coach would constantly chastise me for making mistakes during the game. "Get your head in the game," he'd scream from the sideline. In other words, pay attention. When I finally learned this lesson I went from being a player with decent fundamentals, to being a great player.

 

Remember though, attention isn't enough, in order to be successful one must also have skill, and regardless of the amount of natural talent one has, one will rarely be able to compete with a well trained player, without a bit of training of their own. So it requires a degree of skill to be able to be a competent basketball player, but it also requires a degree of awareness. If one is just aware, he might see what is going to happen, but lack the skill to do what needs to be done. If one has the skill, but not the awareness, then he cannot prevent what is going to happen in the first place.

 

Compassion means skillful action in that you have to cultivate the skills necessary to be able to practice compassion as a virtue. The vast majority of us will not just wake up one day and begin to act virtuously, it requires much unlearning and relearning.

 

Aaron

Edited January 20, 2013 by Aaron

[thelerner]

I just worry that people who are too involved in lofty philosophies on the concept of compassion actually show little of it in real life. When a kid skins their knee or person has a flat tire, do you offer sympathy and help or spend time considering various sutras, karmic consequences and absolute vs relative?

 

 

 

Aaron "Compassion means skillful action in that you have to cultivate the skills necessary to be able to practice compassion as a virtue. The vast majority of us will not just wake up one day and begin to act virtuously, it requires much unlearning and relearning."

 

I don't understand this. Yes, you can get better at things when you practice them. But compassion doesn't seem that hard. Keep an open heart and it tends to flow naturally. Maybe you won't be perfect at it, but even a little bit helps, showing an effort goes a long way.

 

You don't have to raise the concept onto a pedestal, you have to lower it to the ground and keep it on hand. Don't intellectualize it, do it, show it.

Edited January 20, 2013 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

He never called you anal. There you go with the internet bullying again. Stop threatening to report people, simply because you see some sort of slight that isn't there. (Although in a roundabout way it was probably referring to you, but it wasn't a direct insult, so you wont get very far by reporting him.)

 

Aaron

 

Chill. He/she did call me that.

It's not internet bullying to let it be known that someone is getting personally offensive. I took offense. Hopefully by saying so, it's out in the open and members will SELF MODERATE and stop breaking forum rules.

It IS internet bullying to call someone anal. It's also disgusting, in comparison to saying something like "anal retentive".

And it's not threatening to say you're reporting someone...you are doing it, not threatening to do it. There is a button for it on this forum...and members are encouraged to use it when necessary.

Back to the point of the thread...

Edited January 20, 2013 by turtle shell

[Aetherous]

That's true but it does not mean they are separate.

 

Right, I agree with you...but Vmarco's point is that relative bodhicitta is worthless (he/she said something to that effect previously in the thread), and that absolute bodhicitta should be considered compassion. The opposite is true for each.

[suninmyeyes]

I understand that you are balking at the word 'achieve' which seems too narrowly directive and over focused .. with connotations of false yang, egoic drive, traps of attachment to success and competition.

 

And it would be possible to say, that some of your friends who go for months at a time into the wild alone to meditate etc have done good work, allowing themselves to achieve simplicity.

I went few times for a reterat for few months too to enjoy the simplicity and relax , do what I love to do -- sit on my bum and meditate . Allowing to achieve simplicity is contradiction.

However allowing to achieve could work too , why not , it sounds creative and fluid.

 

 

As to tending the plant it is not about achievment -- it is assisting -- being compassionate and nourishing and if plant grows it grows and if it does not it does not . It is up to the nature.

 

Better aproach is meant as in different point of view . I said better becouse we live in overachieving society and look at where we are. Also we can adopt different view through deeper understanding of life .Is this kind of understanding achievment ? To be honest I dont think so . I see where your logic is coming from and it is logical.haha I am not very logical person , but dont strive to be either.

Anyway I dont want to sound too particular about this , as it is not really that important to me and my view changes too.

 

I tried to achive superhard , I meditated sooo much and did sooo much energetic practises for years and still do (not as much )-- thinking I will achieve something. Yes there were some highs and expiriences , but this what I tried to achieve is not up to me . Plus in the meantime everything truned upside down and point of view changed.

Edited January 20, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[Apech]

 

Right, I agree with you...but Vmarco's point is that relative bodhicitta is worthless (he/she said something to that effect previously in the thread), and that absolute bodhicitta should be considered compassion. The opposite is true for each.

 

No its not worthless to practice compassion in everyday life ... its not perfect and as they say - the raod to hell is paved with good intentions ... but I agree with you on this.