Taoism.....lol

[skydog]

Taoism neither repressed celibate monk 100% perfect

 

nor wild criminal, partying all the time, staying up all night, lazy unproductive...

 

[Taomeow]

Taoism is not about repression.

 

There was a famous taoist artist, forget his name, whose amazing works were studied and copied by many aspiring students of art for centuries. He was never sober. The way he painted his masterpieces is described as follows: he would mix some ink into a bucket of wine, then with a mighty roar he would dive into the bucket with his head, soaking his long hair in the inky wine, and then vigorously smack a silk screen with his mess of a mane. Then he would take a step back, squint, look at the pattern, grab a brush and add a few strokes here and there. Voila... masterpiece.

 

Not that it's typical. His followers were more typical, the ones who would spend a lifetime laboriously perfecting just one subject -- the artist who painted flowers painted only flowers, nothing else, and the one who painted birds could take it maybe as far as fish but no father, and the one specializing in cats might do a big cat, a tiger, but not a dog and not a mouse! The mouse artist was the one doing the mouse, and some only painted sleeping mice, only sleeping mice, not mice who are awake! That's the range of taoist specialization... from "perfect only this and don't get distracted doing anything else" to "do whatever you want -- provided you do it perfectly!"

[Stigweard]

It's hard, and quite problematic, to say "Taoism is not" anything ... the extremes of the ascetic Quanzhen sect could certainly be referred to has "repressive".

 

http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ics/journal/articles/v46p444.pdf

 

In Chapter three, “The Asceticism of Quanzhen Masters,” Eskildsen discusses the early Quanzhen masters’ ascetic life as the foundation of their self-cultivation. Pure poverty, begging, bodily suffering, fasting, and sleep deprivation are ascetic practices that are considered conductive to cultivation of inner nature.

[thelerner]

I always liked this piece about Taoism.

 

 

Essence of Taoism Story From NonTien
There is an old story that once Confucius, Shakyamuni Buddha and Lao-tzu were drinking some peach wine together. Buddha opined that it was bitter, Confucius that it was sour – but Lao-tzu, smiling, found it to be sweet.

The wine, of course, represents human life. Taoism is not a philosophy or religion of salvation or of escape, but of appropriately enjoying and dealing with the real life which we have. Taoism finds perfection in imperfection, and taking the eternal and universal viewpoint of the Tao, realizes that the good is not to be finally judged by personal or human preference.

Taoism suggests that happiness is found in accepting our situation. There is no reason not to do anything reasonable to better ourselves, of course, but resentment, denial or a negative outlook on life do nothing towards increasing our happiness. Cheerfulness, humor and a freedom from fussing are the attitudes that will stead us best in life.

This is not to say, however, that Taoism is any kind of forced and strained "positive thinking". It is fine to be sad or melancholic from time to time. This is a perfect occasion to read or write sad poems, listen to sad music and complain to our friends, and (in moderation) can add to the overall enjoyment of life.

Taoism is also unconcerned with ideas of "advancement" and "success" through some special mode of thinking. A Taoist is only willing to struggle to survive up to a point, after which he is content not to survive, death being a natural commitment of life. Lesser considerations such as career, popularity, fame and wealth are then obviously highly trivial, and not such as to cause serious unhappiness.

The Taoist takes his positive pleasures from the enjoyment of love (in all wholesome forms), learning (of interesting and worthwhile things), productive labor (of a kind actually beneficial to human beings), contemplation (whether of the taste of tea, the beauties of art or the moods of Nature), and Taoist practice (of meditation, t'ai-chi ch'üan etc.).

Above all, he or she endeavors to preserve the basic human integrity and innocence with which we are all endowed at birth, and not to be subverted by the concerns of worldliness. The Taoist strives not to want and get, but to enjoy what is already present with gratitude and grace.

[Taomeow]

It's hard, and quite problematic, to say "Taoism is not" anything ... the extremes of the ascetic Quanzhen sect could certainly be referred to has "repressive".

 

I am Quanzhen and I assure you it is not. But then, you would have to have a definition of "repressive" that is the same as the one I have.

 

What is hard is to tell whether something is repressive or not based on the external markers. The goal of restricting certain behaviors may be repression or it may be freedom. When your arm is broken, you wear a restrictive cast so it can heal. When you are one and a half years old, you need to be stopped from rushing into the traffic in a busy street.

 

When they prohibit your feelings and behaviors and states of consciousness they don't like because they want you to be manageable and controllable per their specs -- that's repression. Taoism has nothing of the kind. I mean taoism the real thing. God only knows what one may find out there under the name these days.

 

Oh, and it's not hard at all to tell what taoism is "not." Really. Much, much easier than to tell what it "is."

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Taoism neither repressed celibate monk 100% perfect

 

nor wild criminal, partying all the time, staying up all night, lazy unproductive...

 

 

 

... i dont get it. ...?

 

 

What's repression got to do with it? (got to do with?) who needs a-

whoops nevermind.

[skydog]

interesting points

[skydog]

Taomeow I found your post excellent, thanks.

 

You made a point at the end about whatever you do, do it perfectly. I dont think we are disagreeing here, I think it is just the wording, but wanted to share further thoughts.

 

Well the thing that boggles me is this whole idea of "try to be perfect, seek perfection in all" etc

 

However what Im realising is that some of the so called "laziest, most unproductive, most useless, purposeless, crazy, abnormal, normal" people can be called much greater "taoists" than all these people trying to get somewhere or become something.

 

Words concepts

[Marblehead]

Taoism is about how it is, not about what any individual thinks it should be.

[madMUHHH]

I always liked this piece about Taoism.

 

 

Essence of Taoism Story From NonTien

...

 

Taoism is also unconcerned with ideas of "advancement" and "success" through some special mode of thinking. A Taoist is only willing to struggle to survive up to a point, after which he is content not to survive, death being a natural commitment of life. Lesser considerations such as career, popularity, fame and wealth are then obviously highly trivial, and not such as to cause serious unhappiness.

 

...

 

Above all, he or she endeavors to preserve the basic human integrity and innocence with which we are all endowed at birth, and not to be subverted by the concerns of worldliness. The Taoist strives not to want and get, but to enjoy what is already present with gratitude and grace.

 

Great stuff!

 

I've been recently digging through some Epicureanism and it's really astonisihing how similar it is to Taoism in many respects. A lot of the stuff Epicurus said could have easily been said by a Taoist just as those two paragraphs would just as easily fit into a text about Epicurean philosophy.

 

So, if you haven't checked that dude out, you really should. I wish I could present you some awesome quotes at this point, but all the Epicurean stuff I read was written in German and I'm too lazy to translate anything right now.

[skydog]

.

Edited January 20, 2013 by sinansencer

[GrandmasterP]

Anybody says their version of Taoism is the best or right one just doesn't get it at all.

[Taomeow]

@ sinansencer:

 

yup, one can do "uselessness" perfectly -- know that Zhuangzi story about a perfectly useless tree? If you're "useless," you can't be exploited.

 

Taoism shows some of what it knows (doing its yang thing), hides some (doing its yin thing) -- what it hides, but what one can infer from some of its ideas, is the deep knowledge of this being a world set to exploit, to "use," to treat people as tools, as means toward an end, as objects applicable to tasks... and at its core, taoism is the antidote to this state of affairs. Since the state of affairs is anything but simple, the antidote is to be customized to a concrete situation every time... hence a wide and flexible, adjustable range of how one can go about tao-ing. It is a continuous interplay between the constant, the unchanging, and the constant change, an equilibrium continuously aimed at that can't however be set "once and for all."

 

Most of it is better grasped through taoist practices than taoist musings though. Someone of vastly superior taiji skill once told me, in a lesson concerning rooting/stability/balance, "if you are completely comfortable in any position, you are tensing somewhere in order to maintain it. You have to keep noticing you're slightly uncomfortable as soon as you settle 'completely,' and micro-adjusting, because you keep changing -- you can't stop in any situation that was comfortable a second ago without forcing it, because this second is gone and you are already different and the world is already different... so adjust! Adjust!!"

 

@GP: methinks taoism is no different from any other human endeavor in that it can be done/understood/taught/preached all wrong. Errare humanum est.

[Marblehead]

yup, one can do "uselessness" perfectly -- know that Zhuangzi story about a perfectly useless tree? If you're "useless," you can't be exploited.

Love that story and keep it in my center and have relied on it numerous times. I can be as useless as a useless tree.

[skydog]

@ sinansencer:

 

yup, one can do "uselessness" perfectly -- know that Zhuangzi story about a perfectly useless tree? If you're "useless," you can't be exploited.

 

Taoism shows some of what it knows (doing its yang thing), hides some (doing its yin thing) -- what it hides, but what one can infer from some of its ideas, is the deep knowledge of this being a world set to exploit, to "use," to treat people as tools, as means toward an end, as objects applicable to tasks... and at its core, taoism is the antidote to this state of affairs. Since the state of affairs is anything but simple, the antidote is to be customized to a concrete situation every time... hence a wide and flexible, adjustable range of how one can go about tao-ing. It is a continuous interplay between the constant, the unchanging, and the constant change, an equilibrium continuously aimed at that can't however be set "once and for all."

 

Most of it is better grasped through taoist practices than taoist musings though. Someone of vastly superior taiji skill once told me, in a lesson concerning rooting/stability/balance, "if you are completely comfortable in any position, you are tensing somewhere in order to maintain it. You have to keep noticing you're slightly uncomfortable as soon as you settle 'completely,' and micro-adjusting, because you keep changing -- you can't stop in any situation that was comfortable a second ago without forcing it, because this second is gone and you are already different and the world is already different... so adjust! Adjust!!"

 

@GP: methinks taoism is no different from any other human endeavor in that it can be done/understood/taught/preached all wrong. Errare humanum est.

 

 

Nice reply

 

Some further thoughts that your post has illustrated...Im with you on your second paragraph, Im not sure about this but the moment I try to define what it is its like opposite has to happen by virtue of yin and yang, or something. If I say its all about non doing and being spontaneous, I notice a situation about forcefulness and how its the tao too then I realise I didnt know anything then vice versa. If I get into deep peace, I might be like "Im so peaceful! great" then the opposite happens, so attempting to define it is not just running away from it, but completely running away from it or creating tension which you illustrated great well.

 

Anyways yes chuang tzu is great..Good night to you

Edited January 20, 2013 by sinansencer

[Stigweard]

Anybody says their version of Taoism is the best or right one just doesn't get it at all.

[zanshin]

I know Jackson Pollack wasn't a Taoist in life, but I think he was a perfect Taoist painter.

[zerostao]

I know Jackson Pollack wasn't a Taoist in life, but I think he was a perfect Taoist painter.

interesting perspective. i am in the camp that looks at him as being authentic in his being, true to himself and to his art.

[zanshin]

He said every paint drip and splatter was intentional and how it was meant to be. I do think he was authentic in his being and followed his Te.