The Mystery of Consciousness

[Trunk]

Just caught up here.

Rockin' thread.

[Pero]

Pero,

 

More mushrooms for the soup here -- how about form and emptiness, movement and stillness, sound and silence, duality and nonduality, are always present, they are not different, they are one. Being absorbed into a nondual experience, the question is naturally raised, can a nondual view even be expressed? To attempt to express a nondual view would seem to involve an effort to extract what is nondual over here in this corner from what is dual over here in this corner. The very act of saying "that is a dualistic view" involves one in separating dualistic and nondualistic, which is an act of dualism. Quite a dilemna, agreed? And yet, since dualism and nondualism are, in reality, not separate, any act of apparent separation is really also at one with nonduality. LOL!

 

I felt drawn to share it like this, because I think this is the gist of a pretty funny angle on teachings explicitly labeled as nondual. Maybe you will find this avenue of contemplation reaps as much nonstop laughs as I have.

 

Be well,

Sean

 

Lmao Sean, I knew you were going to say this!!! I was thinking about it as I was writing my last post.

And I haven`t a good answer... You may laugh, but to me it just stops thoughts for moment hahaha, can`t think of anything. (ok, so I also laugh )

Hmmm, I was going to write something, but decided better not to (as I`m a bit in doubt so best to be silent)... I`ll just say that they (emptiness and movement) are both part of our real condition... For which it is said that "even the toungue of Buddha was weak to explain". How could I then?

 

BTW, funny that you said mushrooms for the soup... I ate it today (mushroom soup that is), and still have some left.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Pero

[el_tortugo]

El Tortugo,

 

I don't know what "they" say but I say it's right on.

 

Consciousness is only a mystery to those who "study" someone else's consciousness. To those whose mantra is "know thyself," it's as clear as a shot of Smirnoff's.

 

 

I prefer Mezcal.

[rex]

This is real tie-your-mind-in knots-stuff so the mind is of no utility here. Well my mind anyway.

 

... can a nondual view even be expressed?

No, but it can be alluded to. Creating a view automatically creates a perceiver, an act of perception and a subject of perception. As you say Sean, it's an act of dualism. No problem though - if non-duality can't be expressed without getting into paradox, or if you're less charitable, contradiction, maybe it's something experienced beyond the ordinary conceptual mind.

 

Now lacking a zealous missionary streak I hesitate to plug Buddhism but as it's said in the Prajnaparamita teachings:

 

"Beyond words, beyond thought, beyond description, Prajnaparamita

Unborn, unceasing, the very Essence of Space

Yet it can be experienced as the wisdom of our own Rigpa .."

Edited January 27, 2007 by rex

[sean]

Lmao Sean, I knew you were going to say this!!! I was thinking about it as I was writing my last post. :lol

Glad you got a kick out of it. Hey, what time was it when you were eating your soup? I had typed up that post in notepad offline and then later came online and pasted it as reply, did a quick re-read and impulsively added that line about mushroom soup at the last second. That'd be really funny if the timing was while you were eating.

 

No, but it can be alluded to. Creating a view automatically creates a perceiver, an act of perception and a subject of perception. As you say Sean, it's an act of dualism. No problem though - if non-duality can't be expressed without getting into paradox, or if you're less charitable, contradiction, maybe it's something experienced beyond the ordinary conceptual mind.

Exactly. Playing with words in a creative way can create the conditions for the mind to recognize it's limitation and stop -- creating an opening beyond the mind. Words can function as pointers to this opening. If the words don't open something up, then they are just words and dualism is embedded in language. A lot of what I write on The Tao Bums, as convoluted as it can be, is a playful attempt to reveal this opening in this very moment. Not in a pretentious guru way, I am not enlightened, but as a way of navigating into this opening in the moment for myself as well. You can feel your way into Presence now, in this moment that you've always been in but often obscure, and this is what I am doing as I write. Feeling if each word and each sentence I write brings me closer or further away from presence. Dropping into that space where closer and further away become funny, like little toys in the vastness.

 

One more little thing I did want to throw in here, sorry I can't resist ... but I think it's inaccurate to say the Buddha was always happy. The Buddha was free. He was free of suffering. Happiness is merely an emotional state. To always be happy is actually to be bound. Suffering on the other hand is what arises when there is resistance to reality. When there is a struggle against the way things are. The absence of happiness does not mean a person necessarily has sadness or numbness or any other so-called negative emotion. I know we are all probably tired of sky metaphors, but our experiential field is more more like a sky. An emotional state such as happiness can come and go. Yet when a happy cloud has passed, we don't say the sky is depressed or detached. In fact we say it's clear and open. Ask yourself, where is this experiential field that is always clear and open?

 

Sean

[Wayfarer64]

Would you say the consciousness that goes where it is needed is you or do you direct or put consciousness where it is needed?

 

Have you ever been aware and existant, yet unconscious?

 

Have you ever experienced you yourself in different parts of your body?

 

I've related some aspects of my experiencing these states of being on other threads...The out of body and lucid dream states took place while my body would have seemed to be unconscious.

 

I thought I had discribed my consciousness as being concentrated in various parts of my body. Why would I make a difference between my consciousness and myself? Do you tell yourself what to think before you think it?

 

Maybe to clarify... that which observes these aspects and retains the memory of them I concider to be the me of my consciousness.

 

And yes where I contact the bliss of the void is indeed deep within my mind/memory/consciousness, but is not the only hyper-cosmic state of being that I am aware of. It is not my goal to end up there.

 

I am not a big proponant of Buddhism. It ranks about the same as Christianity with me, as a system of beliefs that I would follow.

 

I am a Taoist who has faith in science more than esoteric wishful thinking to explain my reality and the potentials of my cosciousness through practice or faith or study or just enjoying my existance...

[DentyDao]

 

One more little thing I did want to throw in here, sorry I can't resist ... but I think it's inaccurate to say the Buddha was always happy. The Buddha was free. He was free of suffering. Happiness is merely an emotional state. To always be happy is actually to be bound. Suffering on the other hand is what arises when there is resistance to reality. When there is a struggle against the way things are. The absence of happiness does not mean a person necessarily has sadness or numbness or any other so-called negative emotion. I know we are all probably tired of sky metaphors, but our experiential field is more more like a sky. An emotional state such as happiness can come and go. Yet when a happy cloud has passed, we don't say the sky is depressed or detached. In fact we say it's clear and open. Ask yourself, where is this experiential field that is always clear and open?

 

Sean

 

Freedom from suffering is true happiness. The Buddha is beyond all suffering. As I read through your writing I think the main theme is the absolute. Maybe that's just what I'm getting. There's actually no teaching on this subject in terms of a practice. If you want to talk in absolute terms, it's better to be quiet. I think thanks actually want your saying, but it's like you say, you're just pointing.

 

If you ask a Lama what is enlightenment like, they will just smile at you and say, "It's like Grandmother's house, everything is sweet." They say everyone has a little enlightenment already, but we all still have some seperation too. I think this seperation is a good thing; it's what allows us to return to the Dao. When ever we feel pain of Dukka as the Buddha called it, we see the way back to the Dao a little clearer. When I first met my Buddhism teacher, I was a little emotional. He say's taste your suffering and accept it or own it; do not reject your suffering, but reject it's cause.

 

Of course we all have different degrees of suffering and some of you here may already be enlightened beings. I guess I haven't considered that.

 

S

[sean]

Beautiful post. "It's like Grandmother's house, everything is sweet." I love that.

 

Sean

[Wayfarer64]

The last place my Nana lived was a hospital. She remained pretty sweet right up to the end but the Hospital was sour/bitter lets just say- not sweet...

 

That she remaining sweet was a great relief to all. She seemed ok with death even if her surroundings were sad, (even if thought to be needed for her).

 

I learned a little about life from her death... what seems scarey at first doesn't have to be...We usually get over our fear of the dark and learn to respect strange dogs and fire without fearing them etc...Suffering can be overcome through courage and facing facts.

 

We are in a world of vast horror and emmence blessing. We are born into situations that vary widely from place to place and family to family. Most of us are of the faiths and beliefs handed doen to us through the generations-maybe not so much on this site but generally in the world. As children we believe what our teachers tell us - first our kin and then our mentors. Our ideas get formed.

 

Our minds get shaped and change and most tend to struggle to make some security in their lives. Job. home, family and a way to make all of that keep growing and progressing towards the goals we choose. But nothing seems to ever happen as we expect it to, conditions keep changing we keep changing and the world around us sure as hell keeps changing, What are we to do... buy insurence? Most look to find a belief system that will sustain them. In America today it is the dollar, the world seems to be tagging along on that creed with gusto these days.

 

Most of us here are looking elsewhere -within ourselves- for answers...We want to avoid suffering we want to be happy. We need to feel that even if we suffer and are not happy that sometime we will be. We are human. But many here also have an inkling of the devine within and try very hard to stay in touch with this, nurture it make it our own in a way that reassures us. And we suffer for this as well.

 

I do not follow the Christian faith but that cat Jesus rocked this world with his suffering, by saying he did it for us. This was half a millenium after Buddha took leave Buddha seems to be one of the most complex figures in history. Starting as a totaly protected spoiled prince, only to rebel and become an esthete and then find a middle way to both ease the tensions and keep a tight rein on the self...Its too bad he had such a spoiling start in life, it gave him a lot of fear to get over. After some deep study I just couldn't accept either world view from those two as a way for me to be me.

 

For me I found greater truth in the Yi Jing's simple examples of how to deal with every-day life as best we can, by following the way of natural laws and cycles and needs. Fitting into the big-picture as it were...Trying to live with honesty and honor and compassion as I went about my bidness...

 

And as my Nana taught me - not to fear life's suffering but to make the best of the situation for yourself and those you care for and those who you can also help -even if you don't really care to - because we are all in this thing together...All we can do is see our way through the surprising amounts of crap dumped on us and share the laughs we get not so long afterwards...

 

So it ain't a picnic so what? Life IS the gift that keeps on giving -if - we share it all with humor and enough love to keep the selfish devils within us slipping-up on the rebop... Because we all know right from wrong in our hearts when we do them.

 

And THAT consciousness we should never deny.

[Pero]

This is real tie-your-mind-in knots-stuff so the mind is of no utility here. Well my mind anyway.

 

No, but it can be alluded to. Creating a view automatically creates a perceiver, an act of perception and a subject of perception. As you say Sean, it's an act of dualism. No problem though - if non-duality can't be expressed without getting into paradox, or if you're less charitable, contradiction, maybe it's something experienced beyond the ordinary conceptual mind.

 

Now lacking a zealous missionary streak I hesitate to plug Buddhism but as it's said in the Prajnaparamita teachings:

 

"Beyond words, beyond thought, beyond description, Prajnaparamita

Unborn, unceasing, the very Essence of Space

Yet it can be experienced as the wisdom of our own Rigpa .."

Great Rex.

But what do you mean with: "Now lacking a zealous missionary streak..."?

 

SeanO, I was eating my soup somewhere between 8-10 hours (I don`t remember exactly) before you posted, somewhere between 1 pm and 3 pm my time.

 

 

"Attachment and aversion are like two legs on which human beings walk on"...

[DentyDao]

But isn`t that exactly what dzogchen teaches? Everything is perfect since the very begining.

 

 

I'm not an expert, but basically Dzogchen teaches us how to wake up to this realization. It's the illusion of suffering that we are trying to free ourselves from; the Buddha presented the idea that we should accept these conditions and operate within them. He said we should accept suffereing, but reject the cause which is our own negative thinking and negative karma. In doing this we begin to free our selves and others. We are all hoping for happiness and afraid of suffering. No animal wants to die; even if you poke a stick at an ant, it will run the other way. The Buddha wants us to go beyond hope and fear and start applying the truth to the illusion; this is where our true nature dwells. Beyond death, beyond hope and fear.

 

I think it's too easy to talk about the absolute as if we were all immune to suffering. For example, if someone pointed a gun to your head, would you try and stop them? I bet your all one perfection would disapear pretty quick into the desire to seperate yourself from the bullet in the gun and you would be trying to get out of that situation somehow. Even if we do have some realization and less ego clinging, we still have the body and phenomena to deal with. This is what enlightened beings are working on; even though they don't have ego clinging they have karma that needs to be purified.

 

This quote kind of sums up this idea, "All phenomena are my own mind. The nature of mind is primordially free from all extremes. I will effortlessly dipell my grasping of inherent existence." This is the work of enlightened beings according to Dzogchen.

 

That's why the Buddha preached ethical discipline and pure conduct, not just meditation. He gave the eight fold path as a method to get from point A to Point B; from suffering to freedom. He said first practice moral discipline, then meditation or reflection and finally wisdom, dividing these into eight principles. We see this reflected in the Dao as well in the Chinese ideal of correct conduct and uprightness. It's the idea that we rigorously examine our daily activities and completely eliminate all of our faults.

 

I think that's the basic idea, but I'm sure there is more that could be added. It a great topic.

Edited January 27, 2007 by seandenty

[Wayfarer64]

 

I think it's too easy to talk about the absolute as if we were all immune to suffering. For example, if someone pointed a gun to your head, would you try and stop them? I bet your all one perfection would disapear pretty quick into the desire to seperate yourself from the bullet in the gun and you would be trying to get out of that situation somehow. Even if we do have some realization and less ego clinging, we still have the body and phenomena to deal with. This is what enlightened beings are working on; even though they don't have ego clinging they have karma that needs to be purified.

 

I've had a gun pointed at my head three times in my life. The first I was about 14 and a guy wanted my belt, this happened in the basement of a Church in Princeton NJ. So be careful out there, shit happens ANYWHERE!- The thought that went through my mind was that if I made a move for him, the gun would then be pointed at my friend Nicky G. and he would be shot, so I gave him the belt -after he hit me on the head with it first.

 

The second was actualy several times over a few days when I was being tortured by a rather nasty bunch of KKK/nazy miscreants. I resinged myself to death early in that experience and it turned out to be a great boon to my understanding of being and life on many levels.

 

The third was when a cop thought I was a robber he was sent to apprehend. My thoughts were -crap now to die at the hands of an idiot cop, ain't that a bitch...I remained quite calm and expleined to him what was the actual situation -dumbed down so the fool could get it.

 

In all three cases my mind did seem to slip into a sort of over-drive -adrenaline driven no doubt. The me that is me stayed centered.

Edited January 27, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[el_tortugo]

I've related some aspects of my experiencing these states of being on other threads...The out of body and lucid dream states took place while my body would have seemed to be unconscious.

 

I thought I had discribed my consciousness as being concentrated in various parts of my body. Why would I make a difference between my consciousness and myself? Do you tell yourself what to think before you think it?

 

Maybe to clarify... that which observes these aspects and retains the memory of them I concider to be the me of my consciousness.

 

And yes where I contact the bliss of the void is indeed deep within my mind/memory/consciousness, but is not the only hyper-cosmic state of being that I am aware of. It is not my goal to end up there.

 

I am not a big proponant of Buddhism. It ranks about the same as Christianity with me, as a system of beliefs that I would follow.

 

I am a Taoist who has faith in science more than esoteric wishful thinking to explain my reality and the potentials of my cosciousness through practice or faith or study or just enjoying my existance...

 

I ask these questions because I wonder myself, it seems like you are describing similar experiences and understandings that I have had. So I am curious about how you see it and word it.

 

After all it is what it is.

 

I also don't care much for buddhism or christianity. They explain some things nicely but I think they both focus too much on suffering, escaping and the afterlife. I know this is just part of their message, but this part affects me too much to care to look deeper. I like taoism and other animist ways, I am inspired by them and they seem so much more life oriented. A teacher of mine said to me, "If I want to learn how to live I will ask a Taoist, When I am ready to die I will call a buddhist." Simple I know but I feel the same way. This reminds me as well, how asians mix and match the various religions according to event or need, with no seeming conflict or need to explain.

 

Thanks for explaining your experiences, the gun ones too. I have been in simmilar experiences as well. They are very enlightening and revealing, this fits well with experiencing ones me-ness as well. Things change when you are faced with death and when you think you have died, a strange resolve and acceptance.

[Pero]

I'm not an expert, but basically Dzogchen teaches us how to wake up to this realization. It's the illusion of suffering that we are trying to free ourselves from; the Buddha presented the idea that we should accept these conditions and operate within them. He said we should accept suffereing, but reject the cause which is our own negative thinking and negative karma. In doing this we begin to free our selves and others. We are all hoping for happiness and afraid of suffering. No animal wants to die; even if you poke a stick at an ant, it will run the other way. The Buddha wants us to go beyond hope and fear and start applying the truth to the illusion; this is where our true nature dwells. Beyond death, beyond hope and fear.

 

I think it's too easy to talk about the absolute as if we were all immune to suffering. For example, if someone pointed a gun to your head, would you try and stop them? I bet your all one perfection would disapear pretty quick into the desire to seperate yourself from the bullet in the gun and you would be trying to get out of that situation somehow. Even if we do have some realization and less ego clinging, we still have the body and phenomena to deal with. This is what enlightened beings are working on; even though they don't have ego clinging they have karma that needs to be purified.

 

This quote kind of sums up this idea, "All phenomena are my own mind. The nature of mind is primordially free from all extremes. I will effortlessly dipell my grasping of inherent existence." This is the work of enlightened beings according to Dzogchen.

 

That's why the Buddha preached ethical discipline and pure conduct, not just meditation. He gave the eight fold path as a method to get from point A to Point B; from suffering to freedom. He said first practice moral discipline, then meditation or reflection and finally wisdom, dividing these into eight principles. We see this reflected in the Dao as well in the Chinese ideal of correct conduct and uprightness. It's the idea that we rigorously examine our daily activities and completely eliminate all of our faults.

 

I think that's the basic idea, but I'm sure there is more that could be added. It a great topic.

 

Yes, I agree!!!

The last paragraph... It means to me that Buddha gave ethics and conduct because of the danger of falling into the "trap" you`re talking about above. Did you mean that?

Oh, wait haha. One thing I don`t agree. Totally enlightened beings = no negative karma left to purify (maybe even no karma?).

 

 

Happy, happy, happy!!!

[Todd]

That's why the Buddha preached ethical discipline and pure conduct, not just meditation. He gave the eight fold path as a method to get from point A to Point B; from suffering to freedom. He said first practice moral discipline, then meditation or reflection and finally wisdom, dividing these into eight principles. We see this reflected in the Dao as well in the Chinese ideal of correct conduct and uprightness. It's the idea that we rigorously examine our daily activities and completely eliminate all of our faults.

 

I think that's the basic idea, but I'm sure there is more that could be added. It a great topic.

 

Have you considered that the first step of the eightfold path, "Right View", might be referring to realization of nondual awareness, and everything else is an outgrowth of that?

 

In a way, I feel that sort of right view is the easiest step to take along the path, and the other seven are where we fall off the wagon. However, it isn't really possible to take those next steps (which I tend to think of as an unending deepening in all dimensions, not really linear) without first taking a good look.

 

Of course, the eightfold path may have some merit before realization too. I'm not really sure.

[DentyDao]

Yes, I agree!!!

The last paragraph... It means to me that Buddha gave ethics and conduct because of the danger of falling into the "trap" you`re talking about above. Did you mean that?

Oh, wait haha. One thing I don`t agree. Totally enlightened beings = no negative karma left to purify (maybe even no karma?).

Happy, happy, happy!!!

 

Of course, 100% enlightenment means beyond karma. Enlightened being just means thinking without ego clinging. Buddha is beyond thinking. In absolute terms, thinking does not really exist. In this sense, Sean's comments about enlightenment 'language' folding in on its self is definitly true. It's the reason we have to use thinking to realize teh nature of thinking which is clear, luminus being or Buddha nature.

 

As for right view. View is the first step of understanding in the three I gave: understanding, experience and realization.

 

I think I've explored this point as much as I care to, but you guys can do your own study. There are people who devote their entire life from childhood to teaching these concepts, so they are very clear in terms of what comprises Dzogchen and even Tibetan Buddhism in general.

 

Your right in the sense that we don't start from nothing, because of course we already have Buddha nature. Without that there would be no way to become enlightened.

 

S

Edited January 28, 2007 by seandenty

[rex]

Great Rex.

Thanks Pero!

But what do you mean with: "Now lacking a zealous missionary streak..."?

Though not adverse to a bit of 'product placement' I don't want to be a Buddha Botherer now, do I?

i.e. a Buddhist version of one of these

Edited January 28, 2007 by rex

[Pero]

Thanks Pero!

Though not adverse to a bit of 'product placement' I don't want to be a Buddha Botherer now, do I?

i.e. a Buddhist version of a one of these

 

Lmao, indeed.

 

 

And a quote before I go:

"Since everything is but an apparition, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter." - Longchenpa

[Wayfarer64]

My dog Hector had Buddha nature, and he was a pot-head too. He would follow a j around a circle to get the exhales and then yammer away at us in a very expressive manner that was emotive if not intelligible. He was obviously senscient and empathetic. I remain his devoted servant in his after-life as I was when I was his person for 15 years on this terestial plane. Everyone who knew him and was into reincarnation as a belief -was convinced he was an enlightened being. And one heck of a good friend too.

 

I got him on my 20th birthday from the great German artist- George Grosz's grandaughter, who thought I needed some responsibility. She took me to the dog-pound in Madison Wisconsin to buy me a dog.

 

We spotted each other at the pound, and knew we belonged together. He died on Feb 17th 1989. My mom died Feb 17th, 2005. This gives me the sneeking suspicsion that I could make the journey off planet on Feb 17th 2020... But If I'm late, Jimi can wait!

 

Which is all to say, by way of an actual shaggy-dog story, (Hector was a border-collie)- of the truth about love and shared spirit.

 

Synchronosity aside - I know spirit is connected between those of us who love each-other. So we need to be tolerant of each-other's foibles and get on with the sharing of this life, trying to make it better for each-other as well as ourslves...

 

Keeping an open mind about who we can learn from is a good start. Any ism has flaws as well as merit.

 

El Tortuga makes many good points about the nature of differing belief systems and when/how we may apply them to best usage...

 

Namaste-PDG

Edited January 29, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[Smile]

0% negative karma and 0% negative thinking = Buddha.

S

Hi Sean,

Nice post, even though I disagree with a some of it.

As fas as I see, Buddha didn't point at the side of the coin (positive/negative), but he pointed at the attachment/clinging to the coin. It is the clinging to things, experiences and sensations that produces the pull (read "karma") to reincarnate.

 

So, "0% clinging = Buddha" would be my formula, or at least what I experience with Vipassana training.

Max

[Smile]

An analogy is like being asked by someone "Where is Tai Shan mountain?" Well, ideally you can just point in the direction of the mountain. The person asking the question still has to take the journey and go to the mountain to have the question answered, but you are doing the best you can. Metaphorically speaking, I think a lot of people will end up just looking at your finger, so even direct pointing is flawed

Brilliant observation. Some will be looking at the finger and arguing later about how they've experienced the Tao.

Later, some will write poems and sutras about it.

 

 

What system we use to grow into an expanded consciousness doesn't seem to matter much. What worked for Buddha was not Jesus' way was not Lao Tzu's was not anybody's way but their own. I am not sure that our strivings will get us anywhere until we each find our own way to be the most conscious we can be.

Yes, Buddha said there are 10,000 afflictions and there are 10,000 methods to "dissolve" them. That's why having a wise master is so important.

 

 

For me, I think creating the conditions to allow these higher levels of thought or mind state to happen takes consistent practice in whatever tradition you choose.

Absolutely. Although UG talks a lot about everything being pointless, his messages are directed at the major part of his audience that has a mountain of karmic weight on their shoulders.

[el_tortugo]

[DentyDao]

Hi Sean,

Nice post, even though I disagree with a some of it.

As fas as I see, Buddha didn't point at the side of the coin (positive/negative), but he pointed at the attachment/clinging to the coin. It is the clinging to things, experiences and sensations that produces the pull (read "karma") to reincarnate.

 

So, "0% clinging = Buddha" would be my formula, or at least what I experience with Vipassana training.

Max

 

Positive thinking would be the act of letting go. For example, cherishing others before self; or giving generously instead of hording. These are just tools.

 

0% clinging=enlightened thinking, not Buddha yet. In Dzogchen Vipassana is for practitioners who are already enlightened. Sentient beings can't actually do Vipassana. But we still do it to practice. Kind of like enlightenment warm ups or something.

 

Anyway, it's interesting.

 

S

[rex]

System Error 1537 Sub-Process(7) Msg Del

Edited January 29, 2007 by rex

[DentyDao]

System Error 1537 Sub-Process(7) Msg Del

 

 

I think Rex has just been flushed out of the matrix.