The Mystery of Consciousness

[Wayfarer64]

El Tortuga -yr last post was one of the best things I've read on this site!

 

Our mortal understanding will always be finite and limited compared to the infinite variations of infinity, so to speak...

 

I should hope that even the enlightened have an ability to experience and learn from the ever-changing newness of creation... They just don't need to try to figure out the old patterns of their existance. Every moment offers new wonders to perceive and share being with...

 

I like the reference to the similarities of quantum and eastern religions. That is something I have been caught up in and hope to get past after some more thought...

 

Thanks for helping to keep me on my toes...-Pat

[rex]

I think Rex has just been flushed out of the matrix.

 

I wish! No, self monitoring processes flagged that the post went against sub directives dealing with misinterpretation and acting with a twist.

Edited January 29, 2007 by rex

[el_tortugo]

El Tortuga -yr last post was one of the best things I've read on this site!

 

Our mortal understanding will always be finite and limited compared to the infinite variations of infinity, so to speak...

 

I should hope that even the enlightened have an ability to experience and learn from the ever-changing newness of creation... They just don't need to try to figure out the old patterns of their existance. Every moment offers new wonders to perceive and share being with...

 

I like the reference to the similarities of quantum and eastern religions. That is something I have been caught up in and hope to get past after some more thought...

 

Thanks for helping to keep me on my toes...-Pat

 

That book looks really good, it was highly recomended to me, though I haven't read it.

 

One of the main things that keep me going is that the path is endless and never gets boring . . . the rabit hole goes ever on. . . the universe wants to play.

[sean]

Have you considered that the first step of the eightfold path, "Right View", might be referring to realization of nondual awareness, and everything else is an outgrowth of that?

 

In a way, I feel that sort of right view is the easiest step to take along the path, and the other seven are where we fall off the wagon. However, it isn't really possible to take those next steps (which I tend to think of as an unending deepening in all dimensions, not really linear) without first taking a good look.

 

Of course, the eightfold path may have some merit before realization too. I'm not really sure.

Todd,

 

An interesting story is coming to me, prompted by what you've written here. The story isn't directed at you or anyone in particular, it was just inspired by your thoughts here.

 

Consider the possibility that a student could, theoretically, get to the top of the metaphoric mountain, without ever even seeing a view of the mountain until the very last moment. How could this be possible? Well, this student has an incredible guide to follow. Someone he trusts, and someone who has already made the trip. And maybe the student also has a precise map he has faith in, written and revised by many previous travelers. The student's guide is always two steps ahead, adeptly leading the way. The student works very very hard to follow his guide perfectly. Yet the student's gaze remains fixed downward the entire journey. Either upon the heels of this guide, or alternating between the map and the path itself. It's only at the last moment, when the path abruptly ends, that our student finally looks up for the first time, to take in the broad view. He is startled by the incredible sight of the mountain, and the entire, twisting path he endured to finally get to the top. His spirit finally merges with the mountaintop.

 

Now consider this alternative. Let's look at another hypothetical student. This student has no single guide with whom he has undertaken a devotion to. Also, he has access to many many maps, some which make more sense to him than others. They all seem to diverge at important points though. His mind struggles to make any sense of all this. It could take a lifetime to choose the right teacher and the right map to fully rely upon. Fumbling through the dark, at some point this student stumbles upon a unique teaching. This teaching merely points, over and over again, tirelessly and absolutely, to the exact position at the top of the mountain. Interesting. So, the student encounters this teaching, and, very simply, he just turns his gaze to actually look toward what this teaching keeps pointing to. In an instant he sees the top of the mountain clearly! It's unbelievable!

 

Then things take a rather strange turn. In the act of seeing the top of this mountain directly, the spirit of this student merges with the top of the mountain. (Bear with me). The student himself is still on the path, he is not at the top of the mountain yet at all. His position has not changed. Yet every time this student is drawn to look to the top of the mountain, his spirit merges with it.

 

Eventually it becomes obvious that what is happening is actually even weirder than that. It's not that the spirit of a student is merging with the top of a mountain. In reality, the spirit is already always simultaneously at the top of the mountain and in the body of the student. In fact, the spirit is everywhere. Moreover, the student, the path, and the mountain turn out to be merely stories without a fixed center, arising within the vastness of this universal spirit.

 

WTF?

 

What happens to the student?

 

Well, oddly enough, not much seems to change. The story of a student, a path, and a mountain continues being told. The questions Who or what is telling this story? and Who or what are listening to this story? are begged by this experience. Often deeply. But besides that, this student's story doesn't change much. The story doesn't automatically become exceptional. It doesn't get to break any rules or have access to secret shortcuts. No distinct advantages are conferred. We still find just another ordinary student walking a path up the mountain like anyone else. Tripping. Bleeding. Laughing. Seeking. Arguing. Working hard. Suffering.

 

Alright, this latter story is an attempt to describe the experience of a path that puts Right View first. The former story is an example, probably a highly contrived one, of a student who, for whatever reason, is involved in a path that postpones Right View until the very end (if that is even possible).

 

In my experience Right View does not dissolve the path you have to travel. It's experienced as a preemptive, strikingly cutting, nonconceptual realization, that you, the path and even enlightenment itself, are also parts of a story that is not true in any ultimate sense. It's also empty. The criticism of this Right-View-First approach I hear most often, is that this insight can fool you into thinking you are "already there", since, from within this view, "here" and "there" are clearly seen as fictional and without any basis. So why do anything? I'm sure the criticism has some validity. The counter-criticism might be that students lacking Right View are operating under, and often building upon, assumptions that have absolutely no ground and that can be easily seen through via simple inquiries.

 

 

Sean

[el_tortugo]

Todd,

 

An interesting story is coming to me, prompted by what you've written here. The story isn't directed at you or anyone in particular, it was just inspired by your thoughts here.

. . .

 

Eventually it becomes obvious that what is happening is actually even weirder than that. It's not that the spirit of a student is merging with the top of a mountain. In reality, the spirit is already always simultaneously at the top of the mountain and in the body of the student. In fact, the spirit is everywhere. Moreover, the student, the path, and the mountain turn out to be merely stories without a fixed center, arising within the vastness of this universal spirit.

 

WTF?

. . .

 

In my experience Right View does not dissolve the path you have to travel. It's experienced as a preemptive, strikingly cutting, nonconceptual realization, that you, the path and even enlightenment itself, are also parts of a story that is not true in any ultimate sense. It's also empty. The criticism of this Right-View-First approach I hear most often, is that this insight can fool you into thinking you are "already there", since, from within this view, "here" and "there" are clearly seen as fictional and without any basis. So why do anything? I'm sure the criticism has some validity. The counter-criticism might be that students lacking Right View are operating under, and often building upon, assumptions that have absolutely no ground and that can be easily seen through via simple inquiries.

Sean

 

Nice! Sweet and all that.

 

What I like ( I don't like Buddhism much) is how practical and applicable Buddhism is to every day life. Not that other religions aren't, but it seems that Buddhism particularly has these great psychological and practical teachings, meditations and things that are really helpful in many situations.

 

For example I really like tonglen and tibetan/vajrayana a lot. Buddhists have also fucked with caste systems and social issues pretty well too. Emptiness, who doesn't love emptiness and the void?

[Todd]

Hi Sean,

 

Thanks for that story. It really lays out a couple ends of a spectrum of paths and even manages to get in a little pathless path wisdom to boot!

 

One thing that I would like to highlight a bit more, is that I can't entirely agree that seeing truth offers no advantages. I do agree that it can be the wrong thing for some people in terms of how quickly they come to stable realization (though I can't speak from direct experience here), however, for the limited self, things speed up considerably after realization. As SeanD says, vipassana is a practice for enlightened beings. Nevermind that it isn't a practice, and that there isn't really such a thing as an enlightened being, it doesn't bear any fruit in consciousness until after realization. It is a funny thing when there is no self and yet things are moving, and yet this is the experience of vipassana. This is also our everyday experience, though not often seen.

 

Perhaps you are correct in the ultimate sense. The question that comes up is where does realization occur? I see realization as both something that has only to do with the ultimate realizing itself, and as the limited self engaging in a process of falling away, with nothing really changing in the ultimate. The "nothing really changing in the ultimate" point of view leads me to think all progress is only in terms of the limited self. The realization realizing itself is a little more open ended and I am a bit more drawn to it recently, though certainly neither of these points of view are truth. I just thought I'd bring it up since we're laying out spectrums recently.

 

 

Todd

[DentyDao]

One thing that I would like to highlight a bit more, is that I can't entirely agree that seeing truth offers no advantages. I do agree that it can be the wrong thing for some people in terms of how quickly they come to stable realization (though I can't speak from direct experience here), however, for the limited self, things speed up considerably after realization. As SeanD says, vipassana is a practice for enlightened beings. Nevermind that it isn't a practice, and that there isn't really such a thing as an enlightened being, it doesn't bear any fruit in consciousness until after realization. It is a funny thing when there is no self and yet things are moving, and yet this is the experience of vipassana. This is also our everyday experience, though not often seen.

 

Perhaps you are correct in the ultimate sense. The question that comes up is where does realization occur?

 

Realization occurs gradually over what we preceive as time. And of course, the nature of mind is already realized, just like the nature of water is always pure no matter how dirty it is.

 

I spent about an hour on Adyshanti's website reading his articles and looking at his live talks. This is the teaching that Sean is basing his writing here on (I'm just assuming). I think he has a nice and very accessable message. I see a lot of later Hindu thought (think Yogananda's idea of 'Self') mixed with Buddhist flavoring(emptiness). Pretty much Dzogchen. Anybody can benifit from this teaching which is simple and direct and takes about ten minutes to grasp; maybe fifteen if you have never been exposed to any manner of spiritual teaching.

 

The only difference is that in Dzogchen, students are made to go though a lenthy preliminary practice before the teacher would do this style of direct pointing. I think this is helpful. An then, 'afterwords,' you can explore Bodhichitta which is another useful practice to deepen your selflessness.

 

I do think there is truth and of course there is karma. If there was no karma, real or perceived, we (thinking)would not even relatively exist. Of course, if you approach the world with the advice Ayshanti is giving, naturally you are affecting your karma in a positive way. Selflessness is a good frame because it reflects the reality of 'our situation.' It's important to keep in perspective the knowledge that Adyshanti, or Primordial Peace as he has named himself, did go through a process and a serious 14 year apprenticeship with a Zen Master before he 'arrived,' as it were, at his current state. There is definitly work to be done and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Letting go and being in the moment are hardcore practices that involve blood and tears. Realizing your place in the dream takes discipline, not just an educated perspective. Both my parents are philosophy PhD's, they are perfect examples of the limitations of western intellectualism. Both have gone back to the wisdom of spirituality in their retirement and both are still very much in the dream.

 

That's why the teachings of Buddha and the Taoist immortals are so precious. These catagory of teachings come from an enlightened mind. Which just means the divine has exceptional ways to call us back to our source. We should expect greatness from the divine. Not to would be missing half the fun.

 

S

[Pero]

The only difference is that in Dzogchen, students are made to go though a lenthy preliminary practice before the teacher would do this style of direct pointing. I think this is helpful. An then, 'afterwords,' you can explore Bodhichitta which is another useful practice to deepen your selflessness.

 

That depends on who`s teaching... I got "direct pointing" at the begining. Doesn`t mean I "got it" though.

 

I do think there is truth and of course there is karma. If there was no karma, real or perceived, we (thinking)would not even relatively exist. Of course, if you approach the world with the advice Ayshanti is giving, naturally you are affecting your karma in a positive way. Selflessness is a good frame because it reflects the reality of 'our situation.' It's important to keep in perspective the knowledge that Adyshanti, or Primordial Peace as he has named himself, did go through a process and a serious 14 year apprenticeship with a Zen Master before he 'arrived,' as it were, at his current state. There is definitly work to be done and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Letting go and being in the moment are hardcore practices that involve blood and tears.

 

Indeed. No pain no gain haha.

[sean]

Really enjoying this thread... seeing how we are all unpacking our experience from various angles.

 

Regarding "no advantages". I've been turning "confers no advantages" around in my mind like a koan for a few months now. Todd, you sent me an email with similar considerations as above, and since then I've been allowing that to influence my insight. I'd like to elaborate on the "no advantages" angle though. What I see is that, despite access to the nonconceptual immediacy of Right View (whatever that means), I am still not enlightened, I am still struggling, I still have lots of problems, I am still aging, I still strongly suspect I will die one day... so what good is this Right View?

 

This naturally leads into a perception that there is still a LOT of work to do. Ridiculous amounts of work. SeanD, this is what I hear you emphasizing and it's the angle I feel like Max also chooses to emphasize in these kinds of dialogues. It's an important contribution, because there does seem to be certain pitfalls that arise when Right View appears not only first, but also outside the context of a tradition. With Right View often comes the perception that everything is so incredibly simple and perfect (even as imperfect) just as is. It's like this amazingly translucent, almost shimmering space of clarity. And this is often accompanied by a sense of opening and release that is pleasurable in a deeply satisfying way. Like being allowed to breathe crisp, clean mountain air when you've been suffocating in a smoky box your life up until then.

 

Yet what could be more tempting for an ego than this? A completely free, always accessible, frequently pleasurable, seemingly infinite supply of escape hatches for avoiding having to meet the important complexities and challenges of life that we find painful.

 

There is a stupid Advaita joke about two nondualists sitting in a coffee shop. They are talking casually about the weather, and their careers, and books they are reading. Then one of them says, "Hey man, by the way, I really need that $50 I lent you last week back". The friend pauses and then responds "No one here has lent you any money".

 

"No advantages" helps cut through this temptation for my ego to try to use Right View in the millions of ways egos will try to use anything that seems like it could give the "I" an advantage over "other". There is grasping - trying to make Right View into a conclusion -- it's not a conclusion, it's the absence of a need for a conclusion/no-conclusion. And there is aversion, trying to run and hide in Right View when confronted with difficult pain -- Right View is no place one can hide, it couldn't be more completely out in the open actually. Etc. etc.

 

But Todd, I think I really hear what you are saying and it's become part of the koan. Right View, or more like, my glimpses of Right View, have really significantly impacted my life and my cultivation in powerful ways that "no advantages" shouldn't be used to just write off.

 

Thanks for your insights everyone.

 

Sean

[xenolith]

Great disadvantage in life is a great gift to the spirit.

 

 

Within disadvantage lies ego subjugation.

 

Within ego subjugation lies discovery of self.

 

Within discovery of self lies evolution of the spirit.

 

Within evolution of the spirit lies union with the Tao.

 

 

Rejoice in your disadvantages my friends. And evolve.

 

 

Love.

 

xeno

[Wayfarer64]

Great disadvantage in life is a great gift to the spirit.

Within disadvantage lies ego subjugation.

 

Within ego subjugation lies discovery of self.

 

Within discovery of self lies evolution of the spirit.

 

Within evolution of the spirit lies union with the Tao.

Rejoice in your disadvantages my friends. And evolve.

Love.

 

xeno

 

 

Thanks for the reminder Xeno- some times the tuff times aren't getting used as ways to become better at life...

Namaste-Pat

[Todd]

It is interesting that we are talking to one another and yet I can't see anyone really seeking in this conversation. I am interested in my motivation for contributing.

 

I like to have fun with words, and ideas. I know that neither holds any truth. I do consider it to be a form of practice, however, to enter into relationship and to see what moves me. In many ways it is easier to talk to someone who hasn't had a glimpse of truth that they recognized as such. All there is then is a bit of pointing, or else the topic of spirituality never comes up. With someone who has seen what I am refering to when I speak of spirituality, what is there to say? I wonder if we can really believe anything that we say. I don't even really feel inclined to form coherent thoughts much of the time. The closer to coherence I come, the more I know that I am speaking some form of untruth. But onward to where even fools wouldn't dare, as Adya says.

 

SeanO, I hear what you are saying about the ego co-opting realization. It is a doozy. I find that the ego can co-opt just about anything though, and I think thats just fine. We catch onto its ways bit by bit. It sounds like "confers no advantages" presents itself as a key into mystery for you. I use the same key fairly often, as I feel myself grasping. I have noticed a tendency for my keys to become chains, though, until they are seen through.

 

As a side note, I would say my "confers advantages" viewpoint is based upon an idea that I fall back on in the relative world, that how fast one is going is not important, but rather in which direction. "Right View", as we seem to be referring to it here, has the distinction of being in its own unique location, here, nowhere and everywhere. In my expeirence the movement toward this location only occurs when one is actually "there". It is a lucky thing that we all are already "there", but there is the experience of being not "there", which can be tremendously painful, and only gets worse after one has been "there". The only escape is into truth, or here, or nowhere, however we want to word it, but it isn't an escape that the illusory mind would ever imagine. Nothing changes, only the illusion that anything ever needed to be different, and yet isn't that the best news, even in the middle of what previously seemed such a misery? Or when we are a bit more refined, even in what previously seemed to be a joy that we needed more of? This opens a flow onto which egos have a tendency to grasp, never seeming to learn, but eventually they do (thanks Xenolith, for your pointer to this aspect of learning).

 

Its funny how our prejudices (or ala SeanD, our karma) influences how we express this unfoldment.

 

SeanD

 

The teachings of anyone are only precious when they are.

 

Adyashanti's teachings are a good example. It is true that what he is pointing at can be glimpsed at some level by anybody in no time at all. Such pointing is the essence of his teaching. Yet his words necessarily come from a point of view. There is simple no other way to express oneself. As such, they are constantly changing and often self-contradictory. For example, he consistently maintains that although he did however many years of fairly hardcore zen practice, that time had nothing whatsoever to do with his enlightenment. They are completely different things. His given reason for saying this is that he has seen many people awaken, and perhaps even become "enlightened" (he doesn't use consistent terminology, and doesn't really present awakening as goal) without doing any of the things that he did. On the other hand, he often emphasizes that there is no inherent advantage to his style of teaching. If one sees truth, that can wipe away huge chunks of conditioning, but there is still the body to be dealt with (or perhaps you may substitute the word karma here) and a hell of a long road to go, with much, if not more, suffering along the way. He says that this is where the body-centered and direct-pointing teachings come together. There's no end run around our issues.

 

So which of those teachings are the precious ones? I'd say they don't mean anything unless there is a seeing of truth, in which they come alive.

 

Well, thats enough pretentious posturing for one day. Thanks for humoring me.

 

 

Todd

Edited February 1, 2007 by Todd

[Wayfarer64]

Todd,

 

Our aha! , or seeing truth or enlightenment that we seem to bat-around here like a tennis-ball can be lofted and served up... If it aces the recipiant than it is not received logic or truth. If it is returned then the shared baubble of intent/words can then be measured and returned etc... But our egos are the players for the most part.

 

It seems to me that if we use the word "ego" then we are also accepting the super-ego and id notions of the devided self...I tend to re-catagorize these into the levels of Dharma, Artha, and Kharma to get a wider scope of activity involved in the over-view...

 

In any case I agree that our egos do filter and interpret almost all that happens to us. This, no matter at what level of being/consciouness the info enters our battery of sensory/idea collectors...

 

Most here are at least becoming aware of ourselves to some degree and try to become even clearer and purer beings through some effort and intent. By leading our lives in the spiritualy based aspects of being, our energies seem to be directed towards truth and understanding of what truths we may find.

 

I hope that there is no end to growth for any being encluding those of great attainments. To stop growing is a death on any level... These words may be as empty as any ever written. Still it seems like a pretty good idea to bat these things around with eachother...

[Todd]

Still it seems like a pretty good idea to bat these things around with eachother...

 

I agree.

[Wayfarer64]

The whole "right view" "right thought" right whatever bothers me no end.

 

There is no difference in content to that phrase than in any Islamic, Christian, or Politically Correct mind-control efforts out there. Much less of the true fascists who wish to lead us in the direction of hate and fear mongering...

 

For me it is the open-minded aspects of view and thought that inspire me to greater levels of awareness...Breaking through the paradoxes of correctness and incorrectness to seek the over-view, the unity the Taoist One and All of cosmic spiritual whatever we wish to call the transcendent nature of getting beyond the notions of correctness...I don't mean to be Ginsbergian with this language - as he was a very Buddhistic pointer in his own rightious beatitude...

 

But I'm afread that we reach need to find our own way no matter where we start from and what we may glean along the way, our selves reconfigure any rightness to suit our selves anyway!!! Until such time as our consciousness can transcend the bonds of self and become an aware part of the One and All...

 

Now I shall try to sleep.

[sean]

The whole "right view" "right thought" right whatever bothers me no end.

 

There is no difference in content to that phrase than in any Islamic, Christian, or Politically Correct mind-control efforts out there. Much less of the true fascists who wish to lead us in the direction of hate and fear mongering...

 

For me it is the open-minded aspects of view and thought that inspire me to greater levels of awareness...Breaking through the paradoxes of correctness and incorrectness to seek the over-view, the unity the Taoist One and All of cosmic spiritual whatever we wish to call the transcendent nature of getting beyond the notions of correctness...I don't mean to be Ginsbergian with this language - as he was a very Buddhistic pointer in his own rightious beatitude...

"Right View" is just a pointing. Sometimes pointing with narrow terms is useful. If it actually points. In your case it doesn't seem to be working, so maybe it's better discarded. You have to see the irony in your post though because you end up also trying to point to something you believe is more right. Something "higher" than duality. Something that transcends right and wrong. And that is exactly what is what is meant by Right View. That is why I capitalize the R, to signify that it's just language pointing to a higher order of Rightness that, in a sense, is actually not distinct from a "Wrongness" at all. The mind can't make sense of this.

 

Sean