Stigweard Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) You hear a lot on forums like this people talking about what's wrong with the world, or how to change the world for the better. Personally I think all we can and "should" do is live our inner virtue to the fullest ... not for the purpose of changing or achieving anything, but simply because it is the natural thing to do. What do you think ?? Edited January 23, 2013 by Stigweard 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted January 23, 2013 Agreed. These world changing sorts are generally trouble. Local is best, stick to our own back yards and let others do the same. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WillingToListen Posted January 23, 2013 I would agree. Putting all my energy into helping/trying to help others has brought me much suffering. Now I feel like a husk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 23, 2013 I agree also. I have all I can do to keep my life in order and I still manage to get myself in trouble now and again. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flolfolil Posted January 23, 2013 i think that the people that cause problems for virtuous people are a necessary thing that keeps you on the path of virtue. Even if everyone lived virtuously according to whatever standard that implies, we would still find reasons to hate eachother. Drop the hatred and fear and there is no reason to separate people into groups of virtuous and not virtuous. If you need to have a guideline to follow, you can follow "does this really accomplish anything? or am i doing this because i feel i have to?" One persons right is another persons wrong. One persons wrong is another persons right. Morality is a person to person thing, so do what you feel is necessary or what causes change in the world that is desirable to you. If you feel that living your life for the benefit of others is necessary, do that. If you feel like giving up your life for the benefit of others hurts you, then don't do it. The morality crusaders are also necessary, as without them we all might fall into "chaos" But then again aren't we always in chaos? It takes all kinds 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted January 23, 2013 Love how this quickly moves into one of my favorite topics (and yours to Marbles) ... Ziran and Wei Wu Wei...Ziran means "self-so" ... to be as itself ... just content to be...Wei Wu Wei means to lead without controlling, to act without effort.The two concepts are almost synomynous.There is a great struggle in people between what they think they should be doing and what they love doing. I struggle with this as well. You can end up feeling guilty for doing what you love to do because of the conditioned "inner voices" that keep telling you what you should be doing. And then if you do what you think you "should" be doing you spend that time being resentful and pining for what you would love to do When we are doing something that seems like it is effortless and it maintains our integral wholeness and our spiritual equilibrium ... that is wu wei .... that is ziran ... that is being natural. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted January 23, 2013 Snowed in we are. It is magic. There is nothing one can do, so no point trying to do anything. Resistance is futile so just go with the snow. A most restful day again today. Would that life were always thus. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 23, 2013 The two concepts are almost synomynous. Yeah, that came together for me about a year ago. Wei wu wei for people and ziran for everything else. Put the people in the "everything else" basket and what do you have? Tough place to get to though - I know that first hand. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted January 24, 2013 I agree with the thread. This thought just occured to me though. There will always be people that want to change the world, and because we might have used to do it, we might unconsciously project our dislikes onto others and try to change others who try to change the world.. I dunno lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cat Pillar Posted January 24, 2013 There is a great struggle in people between what they think they should be doing and what they love doing. I struggle with this as well. You can end up feeling guilty for doing what you love to do because of the conditioned "inner voices" that keep telling you what you should be doing. And then if you do what you think you "should" be doing you spend that time being resentful and pining for what you would love to do You just described much of my life. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flolfolil Posted January 24, 2013 my personal plan is to kick back and enjoy the show while working on myself. If someone wants my help they can ask for it. If i have advice worth giving, my success can speak for itself to draw in students. Until then i just don't know enough to truly help people. Though my in person presence and forum/online presence are vastly different. i feel like people come on forums to find different opinions and info on stuff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Really, truly, you guys would sit back & practice breathing technique while the planet that sustains your life & vitality gets degraded, your brothers & sisters suffer cruel injustices, while whole species taken trillions of years to evolve get wiped out every single day???? Really? Humph, action through inaction never really did appeal to me.... Edited January 24, 2013 by Sanzon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flolfolil Posted January 24, 2013 suit yourself. personally i think its fine if everything dies. existence lives on. My way brings me peace, and yours brings infinite suffering. Nothing will ever be good enough for a material idealist. They make everythings life better a lot of the time, yes. But all of those they helped are doomed to die anyways Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Really, truly, you guys would sit back & practice breathing technique while the planet that sustains your life & vitality gets degraded, your brothers & sisters suffer cruel injustices, while whole species taken trillions of years to evolve get wiped out every single day???? Really? Humph, action through inaction never really did appeal to me.... Hello Sanzon, I think you may have misunderstood what Wei Wu Wei and Ziran mean It is understandable really because of the quite prolific mistranslation of Wei Wu Wei to mean "no action" ... it seems to give certain people the justification that they can sit on the arses and do nothing. In Laozi, Wei Wu Wei is more of an instruction to a leader to "lead without controlling", to grant people the liberty of being self-determining ... to allow people to be as they are without trying to force them to be anything more or less than their self-so-ness. On an individual level it is to do the same ... to allow yourself to be as you are ... don't try and force yourself to anything more or less ... it is to be whole and complete within your own virtue and allow your life expression to spontaneously and naturally emerge from that integralness. If through this your natural response is to help and heal the ills of the world, then that is your De, your virtue. If through this your natural response is to retreat for awhile into seclusion and "mind your own business", then that is your De, your virtue. To requote myself: When we are doing something that seems like it is effortless and it maintains our integral wholeness and our spiritual equilibrium ... that is wu wei .... that is ziran ... that is being natural. Edited January 24, 2013 by Stigweard 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted January 24, 2013 You hear a lot on forums like this people talking about what's wrong with the world, or how to change the world for the better. Personally I think all we can and "should" do is live our inner virtue to the fullest ... not for the purpose of changing or achieving anything, but simply because it is the natural thing to do. What do you think ?? "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self." Lao Tzu I wonder, if you took an honest survey, you'd be surprized with how many on TTB that would harshly condemn that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 24, 2013 Once you are awake, and you have cultivated abundant virtue...what action do you take then? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 24, 2013 If through this your natural response is to help and heal the ills of the world, then that is your De, your virtue. If through this your natural response is to retreat for awhile into seclusion and "mind your own business", then that is your De, your virtue. I agree. In fact, I don't think those two things are opposites...you can do both at once. This is the problem with conceptual thinking - it assumes that it'd be impossible to do both things in the same day. Take care of yourself. Take care of others. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) "If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self." Lao Tzu I wonder, if you took an honest survey, you'd be surprized with how many on TTB that would harshly condemn that. Here is a story I have heard: Nineteen years after the Yellow Emperor was enthroned he had earned the support and obedience everywhere he ruled. He heard that Kang Cheng Tzu lived on Kun Tung Mountain, so he went to see him and asked, "I heard that you have reached the ultimate level of integral truth. May I request to know the most powerful energy of the ultimate level? I wish to use it to help the growth of crops to feed my people. I also wish to learn to control yin and yang in order to harmonize all things. How can I achieve this?" Kang Cheng Tzu answered, "What you ask lies within the coarse material sphere of things, and what you want is to extend your influence over all things. Do you want to use all those unusual natural phenomena as opportunities to rule the world? Keeping to the narrowness of your mind, how can you understand the path of ultimate truth?" Therefore, the Yellow Emperor separated himself from the affairs of state. He stayed in a specially built house with couch grass on the floor for three months. Then he went to make another request. Kang Cheng Tzu was resting on his bed, facing south, and the Yellow Emperor approached him, walking on his knees. He bowed low, touching his head to the ground and asked, "I hear that you have reached the highest state of the ultimate truth. I beg to know how to cultivate myself to achieve eternal life." Surprised, Kang Cheng Tzu sat up and said, "Well asked! Listen, and I will tell you the highest state of the ultimate truth." Ni, Hua Ching, Workbook for Spiritual Development of All People Edited January 24, 2013 by Stigweard 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 24, 2013 I agree. In fact, I don't think those two things are opposites...you can do both at once. That is why Lao Tzu didn't stop with just the concept of "wu wei". He added "wei wu wei". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted January 24, 2013 Evil flourishes when good men do nothing - Edmund Burke 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 24, 2013 Evil flourishes when good men do nothing - Edmund Burke Not a universal truth but not too far from it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted January 24, 2013 Just a thought...What if... Buddha and Lao Tzu were really the Devil? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) Id say there are Good, Evil and Neutral people Evil and Neutral... little difference Maybe they could be further defined as... The Empathic, Psychopathic and Apathetic As you can see it is 2 against 1 already... Edited January 24, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 24, 2013 Just a thought... What if... Buddha and Lao Tzu were really the Devil? Nope. I would discard such a thought. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted January 24, 2013 Buddha -- "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."^ Yes Sir!haha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
