Taoist Lineages

[JustARandomPanda]

Has anyone here had experience in both the Complete Reality Lineage and the Pre-Celestial Way lineage? What are the differences between them?

 

Also...are there any lineage-holders of either in the U.S.?

[deci belle]

I only have seen the lineages of the Complete Reality and the Hidden Dragon schools both started by students of Lao Tzu.

 

I don't know anything about the Pre-Celestial Way school nor do I really know anything about the other two schools other than what I've practiced for 20 years attributed to the Complete Reality school. I just found out what little I've seen about any lineages when I googled Wenshi because the phrase "turn the light around", found in the Secret of the Golden Flower is attributed to him in that book.

 

When did the Pre-Celestial Way school start, and who started it?

[takaaki]

I only have seen the lineages of the Complete Reality and the Hidden Dragon schools both started by students of Lao Tzu.

 

I thought Lao Tzu is a myth. Flowing Hands says he is no myth and existed as Li Erh and now communicates with him as an immortal. What do you say?

[JustARandomPanda]

I only have seen the lineages of the Complete Reality and the Hidden Dragon schools both started by students of Lao Tzu.

 

I don't know anything about the Pre-Celestial Way school nor do I really know anything about the other two schools other than what I've practiced for 20 years attributed to the Complete Reality school. I just found out what little I've seen about any lineages when I googled Wenshi because the phrase "turn the light around", found in the Secret of the Golden Flower is attributed to him in that book.

 

When did the Pre-Celestial Way school start, and who started it?

 

Unfortunately I do not know anything about the Pre-Celestial Way school.

 

The only reason I know about it at all is that one of Eva Wong's books states that she is a student of both of these two schools. One of her sifu's is a lineage holder of the Complete Reality school and the other a lineage holder of the Pre-Celestial Way school. It doesn't state where each of these schools has a temple located. Only that she has been a practicing student of these 2 lineages for quite a long time with the Complete Reality discipleship going back to her early adult years (early 20s I presume).

[Birch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanzhen_School

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Gate_Taoism

 

Can't vouch for the veracity of Wikipedia info but I thought these two sounded familiar in that vein

 

[deci belle]

I thought Lao Tzu is a myth. Flowing Hands says he is no myth and existed as Li Erh and now communicates with him as an immortal. What do you say?

I say I don't know. There is no person anyway. If one needs to reference then one uses the reference one has to use.

 

I know I don't know. I have only seen and felt, I have never heard words. I have seen a teacher in the Chinese style awaiting on a rise. The path is one. Living myths or symbols or people all communicate the mystery according to one's capacity. Nothing has precedence in terms of the path. When one is done with the world, one follows the path of prior illuminates.

 

Ultimately it is not a person.

 

I only deal with ordinary situations myself according to situations. Though they come and go, I do not go along.

 

All the myths amount to the wonder. They are all so wonderful. I do not go along with anything. I miss out completely.

 

Haha!!❤

 

 

This is the only link I found in the past about the Hidden Dragon and Complete Reality lineages:

http://www.masterwu.net/MasterWuHiddenImmortalLineage.html

 

 

 

ed note: added last line and link

Edited January 24, 2013 by deci belle

[takaaki]

I do wish you would speak in plain English for once; the way people do when speaking to a cab driver or a sick dog.

[deci belle]

Never was a cab driver dear.❤ Try reading the Flower Ornament Scripture more than a few times~ that'll learn ya!!

 

The writing style suits me and my knowledge of the subject matter.

 

What do you say?

[deci belle]

takaaki~ I've re-read my post and I don't know where the sick dog and cab driver come in… it seems pretty plain to me.

 

When hearing details of the inconceivable, you'll just have to let it register somewhere other than the intellectual venue.

 

I'm sure there are cab drivers that know this already~ not so sure about those poor sick doogies, though…❤

[三江源]

The amount of times I've tried to talk about taoist lineages to sick dogs is nobodys business. FACT.

[deci belle]

You promised not to tell, cat!!! ahahaa!!❤❤

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Cat cant tell healthy dogs.... healthy dogs chase cats.

[Taomeow]

Has anyone here had experience in both the Complete Reality Lineage and the Pre-Celestial Way lineage? What are the differences between them?

 

Also...are there any lineage-holders of either in the U.S.?

Far as I know, Zhengyi lineages are mostly familial and were traditionally centered around the actual genealogical tree and transmitted to family members, thus surviving many migrations and diasporas and taking root among non-mainland Chinese populations, as well as local populations they interacted with. Historically Zhengyi do not acknowledge "spiritual lineages"(ones traced to a legendary figure or deity rather than a live human) while Quanzhen acknowledge such origination very far back but not in recent times (e.g., to claim an immortal master who is not in the imperial records 900 years ago may be fine, but if it's 190 years ago you have to have the name and the biographical data for who he or she is! And if the verifiable origin is only very recent, well, it's not a lineage. Lineages are heng, durable.)

 

As time goes by though, and especially with some relatively recent historic upheavals and farther migrations (such as to the U.S.), it gets progressively harder for a non-specialist (and not always easy for a specialist) to tell who is transmitting a genuine "grandfather" or a genuine "spiritual" lineage and who is taking advantage of the overwhelming ignorance of Westerners (and the majority of modern Chinese) and claiming/inventing a lineage for to make a buck. On the other hand, "professional skeptics" whose own spirit is bu ren will foam at the mouth denying legitimacy to any lineage that deviates from a particular indoctrination they themselves have experienced, being ill-equipped to tell anything from anything that they didn't learn by rote.

 

So, no wonder that some people give up on viewing these things as important (besides, by now, when new age has shown signs of turning into a "lineage" of sorts in its own right, many have already been taught it's unimportant -- their indoctrination as to what is important and what is unimportant deems continuity of things that are whole, which is what traditional lineages see as their main value, unimportant, and substitutes its own ideas and values.) In the absence of a frame of reference, anything goes. Traditionally, such frame of reference was very simple: results. Lineage taoism is pragmatic and efficient in its undertakings, this is not a head trip, and "tao of the mouth" didn't support anyone trying to make it as a taoist in the world or away from the world alike. So, a lineage was not about "ideas" -- it was about know-how that can resolve a problem, from a practical one to an existential one. No one trusted a specialist in existential problems who couldn't demo any competence and any impressive results solving practical ones. I believe it's fair.

 

It is possible to find a Zhengyi lineage in the US -- i.e. a non-monastic taoist lineage that can name the teacher of the teacher but is usually either difficult or impossible to trace farther back than two, three, four generations. It is a lot harder to verify such a lineage. So, one would have to either ignore all lineage concerns and settle for new age, or else take up taoist studies and practices that gradually develop one's innate ability to see and comprehend patterns and come up with progressively more accurate assessments of what one is dealing with.

 

I believe that for purposes of here and now, the stellar opportunity in this respect is taiji. There's quite a few solid, indisputably documented authentic taiji lineage holders teaching in the US. None of the familial ones I am familiar with teach taoism as such to one's intellectual mind, but they teach "tao of the overall functioning" to your whole system, on all nonverbal levels at once, and gradually turn you into, well, "someone who can tell." This might not equip you to argue with "researchers" -- you might not have all the quotes from Needham or Saso or Robinet on hand to "prove" what is and what isn't legit. But you will be equipped to know without reading up and to tell without a shadow of a doubt -- in many cases, from just taking one look or hearing one claim, you will know exactly what you are dealing with, a lineage or a business or both (they are not mutually exclusive, but a lineage is not necessarily a business and a business is not necessarily a lineage. )

[YMWong]

The only reason I know about it at all is that one of Eva Wong's books states that she is a student of both of these two schools. One of her sifu's is a lineage holder of the Complete Reality school and the other a lineage holder of the Pre-Celestial Way school. It doesn't state where each of these schools has a temple located. Only that she has been a practicing student of these 2 lineages for quite a long time with the Complete Reality discipleship going back to her early adult years (early 20s I presume).

 

Eva Wong's learned Pre-Celestial Way under Moy Lin Shin, who learned it in Hong Kong in a local offshoot of that school (actually very much reformed)

 

YM

[exorcist_1699]

Taoist lineages can be classified by the following criteria:

1) By the geographical origin or area of influence of that school, for example, the Mo Shan school is so-named because it originates from a mountain called Mo Shan ( located in the Jiangsu Province).The Complete Reality school belongs to the North School because its influence was mainly limited to the area north of the Yangtze River during the Song-Yuan Dynasties.

2) By the names of its founders , for examples, Wu-Liu School is named after its two masters :

Wu Chong-Xu and Liu Hua-Yang .

3) By the method it adopts, for example , the Pre-Celestial School is so-called because it teaches people to situate their mind in a meta-physical dimension of nowhere so as to attain the Pre-celestial qi ... if you start by paying attention to your dantian in order to initialize some qi , then of course, hardly can your method be called Pre-Celestial because you are using an environmentally conditioned reasoning long after your birth to initialize some post-celestial qi in your body...

Edited January 27, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[deci belle]

3) By the method it adopts, for example , the Pre-Celestial School is so-called because it teaches people to situated their mind in a meta-physical dimension of nowhere so as to attain the Pre-celestial qi ... if you start by paying attention to your dantian in order to initialize some qi , then of course, hardly can your method be called Pre-Celestial because you are using an environmentally conditioned reasoning long after your birth to initialize some post-celestial qi in your body...

 

That is such a perfect example of concise and hopefully informative reportage!!❤

 

 

 

 

 

ed note: add "and hopefully informative"

Edited January 27, 2013 by deci belle

[Taomeow]

Taoist lineages can be classified by the following criteria:

 

1) By the geographical origin or area of influence of that school, for example, the Mo Shan school is so-named because it originates from a mountain called Mo Shan ( located in the Jiangsu Province).The Complete Reality school belongs to the North School because its influence was mainly limited to the area north of the Yangtze River during the Song-Yuan Dynasties.

 

 

2) By the names of its founders , for examples, Wu-Liu School is named after its two masters :

 

Wu Chong-Xu and Liu Hua-Yang .

 

 

3) By the method it adopts, for example , the Pre-Celestial School is so-called because it teaches people to situate their mind in a meta-physical dimension of nowhere so as to attain the Pre-celestial qi ... if you start by paying attention to your dantian in order to initialize some qi , then of course, hardly can your method be called Pre-Celestial because you are using an environmentally conditioned reasoning long after your birth to initialize some post-celestial qi in your body...

What you are talking about is "taoist schools and sects," a different animal from "lineages." There can be different lineages within the same school or sect, and there can be different schools and sects branching out from the same lineage. A lineage is dependent on sequential transmission. A school or sect isn't. You can joint anytime if you are found qualified or meet whatever requirements for joining. What you join is a school or sect, not a lineage. To become part of a lineage, you need to get the whole teachings of your school or sect transmitted to you and then transmit them to someone else.

[deci belle]

Authentic lineage is determined by sudden realization following a prior illuminate's guidance.

 

It has nothing to do with acceptance by others, whether it be a person, sect or school.

 

If you have not seen your nature, you really have nothing to talk about as you do not know the prerequisite and have no inner affinity.

 

Lineage for the enlightened is not an academic issue.

[Taomeow]

Taoism is not big on 'enlightenment.' We chop wood, carry water. We heal, exorcise, tell fortunes, arrange auspicious homes and graves, bless, fight, bring peace, do politics, do art, do science, do not-doing, roam the root of heaven and earth, stuff like that. We communicate with spirits and deities, ancestors and animals, trees and clouds. We gather the elixir, grow the Yellow Sprouts, set the bellows under the cauldron, mate the Tiger and the Dragon, nourish the immortal fetus. Most importantly, our 'true nature' is all of these, not something separate from what we're doing. We believe our true nature is a verb, not a noun. And our lineages are not 'academic,' they are 'a candle lit from a candle.'

[exorcist_1699]

What you are talking about is "taoist schools and sects," a different animal from "lineages." There can be different lineages within the same school or sect, and there can be different schools and sects branching out from the same lineage. A lineage is dependent on sequential transmission. A school or sect isn't. You can joint anytime if you are found qualified or meet whatever requirements for joining. What you join is a school or sect, not a lineage. To become part of a lineage, you need to get the whole teachings of your school or sect transmitted to you and then transmit them to someone else.

 

The historical fact is that Taoist lineages are expressed and embodied in those schools and sects, formed in different periods of time and in different areas of China ( maybe in future by different States of America :-) ) , and are called by the criteria I mentioned. A school or sect does depend " on sequential transmission"..

[Taomeow]

The historical fact is that Taoist lineages are expressed and embodied in those schools and sects, formed in different periods of time and in different areas of China ( maybe in future by different States of America :-) ) , and are called by the criteria I mentioned. A school or sect does depend " on sequential transmission"..

 

Um...

 

Wang Chongyang, one of the founders of Quanzhen, which is a major school of taoism, had seven disciples. Each disciple founded a separate lineage.

1. Ma Yu (馬鈺) founded the Yuxian lineage (Meeting the Immortals)
2. Tan Chuduan (譚處端) founded the Nanwu lineage (Southern Void)
3. Liu Chuxuan (劉處玄) founded the Suishan lineage (Mount Sui)
4. Qiu Chuji (丘處機) founded the Longmen lineage (Dragon Gate)
5. Wang Chuyi (王處一) founded the Yushan lineage (Mount Yu)
6. Hao Datong (郝大通) founded the Huashan lineage (Mount Hua)
7. Sun Bu'er (孫不二) founded the Qingjing lineage (Clarity and Stillness)

All of these belong to the Quanzhen school. Each of them is a separate lineage within the same school.

 

Just one example of what I was talking about.

[Mudryah]

There is a lineage holder of Dragon Gate school here in the U.S. and I help promote their Taiji. If you would like to talk to a lineage holder to get real information just message me and I'll give you his number. Peace.

[YMWong]

Um...

 

Wang Chongyang, one of the founders of Quanzhen, which is a major school of taoism, had seven disciples. Each disciple founded a separate lineage.

1. Ma Yu (馬鈺) founded the Yuxian lineage (Meeting the Immortals)
   
2. Tan Chuduan (譚處端) founded the Nanwu lineage (Southern Void)
   
3. Liu Chuxuan (劉處玄) founded the Suishan lineage (Mount Sui)
   
4. Qiu Chuji (丘處機) founded the Longmen lineage (Dragon Gate)
   
5. Wang Chuyi (王處一) founded the Yushan lineage (Mount Yu)
   
6. Hao Datong (郝大通) founded the Huashan lineage (Mount Hua)
   
7. Sun Bu'er (孫不二) founded the Qingjing lineage (Clarity and Stillness)
   

All of these belong to the Quanzhen school. Each of them is a separate lineage within the same school.

 

Just one example of what I was talking about.

 

TM, the seven sects you mention are SCHOOLS/SECTS 派 and not lineages.

In the Chinese tradition a lineage is a particular line of transmission of a certain school/sect, but when the school gets a new name as in the cases you mention we are talking about a new sect and NOT a lineage of the original sect (Quanzhen in this case).

To be more precise, adherents of a LINEAGE of a school all use the same lineal poem and therefore are named with the same character at a specific point in the line. When a new sect is created, as in the case of the seven you mention, a new poem is generated and its adherents will be given a new set of lineal names.

 

YM

[Taomeow]

TM, the seven sects you mention are SCHOOLS/SECTS 派 and not lineages. In the Chinese tradition a lineage is a particular line of transmission of a certain school/sect, but when the school gets a new name as in the cases you mention we are talking about a new sect and NOT a lineage of the original sect (Quanzhen in this case). To be more precise, adherents of a LINEAGE of a school all use the same lineal poem and therefore are named with the same character at a specific point in the line. When a new sect is created, as in the case of the seven you mention, a new poem is generated and its adherents will be given a new set of lineal names. YM

 

So, do you want to set Wikipedia straight then? I copied the list from their page.

 

Your interpretation is one aspect of what a lineage is, it describes one feature it has. It is not wrong and it does not make what I was talking about wrong either -- to wit, the sequential transmisssion, lineage in the sense of counting generations of transmitters rather than lines of a poem.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

who relies on an encyclopedia of user-modifiable content????

With a grain of salt, sure, but as an absolute? NOT EVEN PUBLISHED ENCYCLOPEDIAS!