Taoist Lineages

[宁]

in most cases they are of poor quality and more about transmitting "techniques" instead of passing an original transmission

 

YM

 

in the past few years most of the qigong schools I've heard about adopted this very idea, as if it would certify that merely by stating it they can insure and are indeed able to pass that 'transmission' ~ unfortunately there are many gullibles that buy it, sometimes literally

the way they explain it is, 'transmission' happens during the practice of the ‘technique', when you attune yourself through it with the original 'current' or whatever.

anyway the whole idea is so vague it can be (and IS) interpreted in many ways, to suit every guy out there that wears a daoist hat and matching shoes, selling 'daoism' or 'kundalini' online. next thing we'll hear about is e-transmission..

 

what is the difference between technique and transmission, and how does transmission occur?

 

Thanks

Edited February 1, 2013 by 宁

[YMWong]

what is the difference between technique and transmission, and how does transmission occur?

 

Thanks

＂True transmission" only occurs when one is accepted as disciple in a certain school, which means he is "introduced" to the line of transmission of the ancestors from that specific school. Without this connection one can only go so far in his path, which will be one of "techniques" that may increase his skills/qualities similarly to any other training but nothing more than that.

 

Transmission usually takes the form of an acceptance/introduction rite, different schools do that differently but the meaning is the same. It is very much like enrolling at a certain university: there are specific requirements and only if you get accepted and follow their curriculum you have the chance of learning with their teachers and getting their degree.

 

YM

Edited February 1, 2013 by YMWong

[宁]

So, what is this 'real transmission' exactly? Is it a specific knowledge? A state of being? A 'realization'?

[Jeff]

So, what is this 'real transmission' exactly? Is it a specific knowledge? A state of being? A 'realization'?

 

Real transmission is sometimes called a sharing of "light". It could also be described as the sharing or "taste" of being of the "primordial state". One must be open (or have an open "heart") for it to be perceived. One can "receive" a transmission up to their level of "clarity".

 

Best, Jeff

[三江源]

exorcist_1699

 

thankyou for that.

 

 

 

transmission.. WHAT IS IT ACTUALLY? resonance between two vibrations.. the seed in one end has to be awakened to receive the flowering from the other end. Isnt it like a flower and a bee.. is a transmission part of nature? Does the water give a transmission to the animals and birds, so that their bodies gravitate toward it?

[YMWong]

So, what is this 'real transmission' exactly? Is it a specific knowledge? A state of being? A 'realization'?

 

True Transmission is the establishment of a connection, just like when connecting wires to allow for electricity to flow

 

YM

[三江源]

True Transmission is the establishment of a connection, just like when connecting wires to allow for electricity to flow YM

And how do the wires connect?

[宁]

 

Do you have a belief either way in the validity of a "true transmission" (YM's words) inherent via www?

 

IMHO it seems that transmission goes both ways, otherwise there wouldn't be requirements now would they ~ at least that's what a connection means to me, so it would make sense to me to choose carefully who do impart it with, especially if it's particularly precious. when you sell it, you take that concern out of the equation... it's like having unprotected sex with total strangers.

 

I'm just as confortable with low as with high vibrations and feel no need to stick to one side of the spectrum alone, it makes alot of sense to (the totality of) me

[JustARandomPanda]

Real transmission is sometimes called a sharing of "light". It could also be described as the sharing or "taste" of being of the "primordial state". One must be open (or have an open "heart") for it to be perceived. One can "receive" a transmission up to their level of "clarity".

 

Best, Jeff

 

 

This sounds identical to what's done in Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

[Walker]

The most common, especially in the west, is a derivation of Longmen School made popular by an early English translation of a book （Charles Luk - Taoist Yoga) originally by Master Liao Kong (Qianfeng).

 

Not to nitpick, but Liao Kong was Qianfeng's master; Qianfeng (or 千峰老人) was a name taken by Zhao Bichen... Right? If there is a text circulating written directly by Liao Kong's hand, I would be interested to see it.

[YMWong]

Not to nitpick, but Liao Kong was Qianfeng's master; Qianfeng (or 千峰老人) was a name taken by Zhao Bichen... Right? If there is a text circulating written directly by Liao Kong's hand, I would be interested to see it.

 

Yes, I stand corrected, nice to see somebody with knowledge and wisdom once in a while on this board

 

 

YM

[Creation]

This sounds identical to what's done in Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

It does indeed, perhaps because that is the kind of transmission he was thinking of when he wrote that post? The thing is, that's not the same thing as the kind of transmission YMWong was talking about. "Transmission" (in it's most general sense) is the sharing of information (in it's most general sense) directly through energy. Would you assume two books are about the same topic just because they are both written on paper? In this case the two books are connection to a specific lineage and direct induction into the natural state.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Creation

[JustARandomPanda]

It does indeed, perhaps because that is the kind of transmission he was thinking of when he wrote that post? The thing is, that's not the same thing as the kind of transmission YMWong was talking about. "Transmission" (in it's most general sense) is the sharing of information (in it's most general sense) directly through energy. Would you assume two books are about the same topic just because they are both written on paper?

 

 

I assume that question is meant for Jeff?

[Creation]

I assume that question is meant for Jeff?

It was a rhetorical question meant to illustrate my point.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Creation

[YMWong]

Transmission (from Encyclopedia of Daoism by F. Pregadio)

 

The simplest form of transmission in China was pedagogical. A teacher such

as Confucius orally passed on his learning to his pupils who recorded his

wisdom for later posterity. An erudite might also personally present a text

containing his wisdom to a deserving recipient. Another type of transmission

appeared in the “weft texts” (weishu 緯書; see *taoism and the apocrypha)

that were popular during the reign of Wang Mang (r. 9–23). Those texts were

the repositories of myths, and each was associated with one of the Confucian

classics. A “dragon-horse” bearing the eight trigrams (*bagua) of the *Yijing

on its back emerged from the Yellow River to convey them to Fu Xi伏羲 who

copied them. A yellow dragon bearing theChart of the [Yellow] River (Hetu) on

its back crawled out of the river and presented it to *Huangdi. A giant, black

tortoise carrying a talisman in its beak came forth from the water, placed it

on an altar before Huangdi and departed. A numinous turtle with theWrit

of the Luo [River] (Luoshu) imprinted on its cinnabar red shell in azure script

emerged from the Luo River and transmitted it to Cangjie 倉頡, a divinity

known as the inventor of writing. (On these two charts, see the entry *Hetu

andLuoshu.) The trigrams, chart, talismans (*fu), and texts were tokens that

confirmed Heaven’s conferral of the mandate on the ancient sage kings, and

they became essential elements of Taoist rituals and ordinations.

On June 11 of 142, the Most High Lord Lao (Taishang Laojun 太上老君),

i.e., Laozi deified (*Laojun), descended to Mount Heming (*Heming shan,

Sichuan) and bestowed the Dao of the Covenant with the Powers of Orthodox

Unity (zhengyi mengwei 正一盟威) on *Zhang Daoling. This tradition, perhaps

a later fabrication, was another sort of transmission, a personal revelation to

a living human from a deity. What Zhang precisely received on that occasion

is not at all clear since various sources supply different titles. Evidence seems

to indicate that the works of Zhang or other *Tianshi dao leaders included

registers (*lu), talismans, petitions, and codes. Later in the Six Dynasties, the

priesthood, Zhang’s successors, was responsible for inducting juveniles and

young people into the faith. The rites involved transmitting registers.

 

Scriptural transmission. The *fangshi introduced another form of transmission

involving arcane texts, some of which made their way into the alchemical

tradition of Taoism. *Ge Hong traced their transmission back to *Zuo Ci

(fl. ca. 200) and was one of the recipients of works at an altar (tan 壇) in the

mountains of what is now northeast Jiangxi. There he received from his master

three texts on alchemy under an oath of covenant (meng 盟) as well as secret

oral instructions (koujue 口訣) on their meaning that could not be written

down (see *Taiqing). Originally, a deity (*shenren) had bestowed them on Zuo

who in turn transmitted them to Ge’s uncle, *Ge Xuan, who passed them on

Ge’s master, *Zheng Yin. Ge Hong mentions another form of transmission involving the *

Sanhuang wen (Script of the Three Sovereigns). Immortals hide copies of it in caves

on all of the sacred mountains. When a person qualified to attain the Dao

enters one of the mountains and earnestly meditated, its god will open the

grotto and permit him to view the text. The process, however, was a little

more complicated, as there were two traditions concerning the revelation of

the scripture; but in both cases the text appeared spontaneously on the walls

of grottoes after the persons stared at it or meditated and fasted. When they

were able to discerning the writing, the two left pledges, copied the scriptures

and departed.

 

Transmission and revelations in the Six Dynasties. The oldest reliable accounts

of divine transmission to humankind date from the second half of the fourth

century. Between 364 and 371, a dozen or so of the Perfected appeared to *Yang

Xi in nocturnal visions to bestow upon him more than ten *Shangqing scriptures

and hagiographies as well as more than forty scrolls of oral instructions. Of

all the Taoist revelations that occurred between 142 and 400, this is the only

one that appears to have been the product of true ecstatic experience because

Yang and his patrons, the Xus 許, kept detailed transcripts of the epiphanies.

The influence of older occult sources is evident in the scriptures; the visions

may have been nothing more than instruments for reshaping earlier writs and

procedures to conform to Yang’s new insights and agenda.

In the fifth century, the *Lingbao order added a new twist to the lore of

transmission. They contended that their scriptures had emerged before creation

as coagulations of *qi (pneuma). After the gods appeared, the Celestial Worthy

of Original Commencement (Yuanshi tianzun 元始天尊; see *sanqing) had

the texts cast on gold tablets and stored in his celestial archives. Thereafter,

he granted lesser deities access to them if they underwent the proper rituals.

Five eons passed before the Celestial Worthy decided it was time transmit

the texts to a mortal. At his behest three of the Perfected descended with a

cortege of carriages, an escort of cavaliers and a retinue of immortal lads and

jade maids in the millions. That host landed on Mount Tiantai (*Tiantai shan,

Zhejiang) where the Perfected bestowed the scriptures, one by one, on Ge

Hong’s uncle who had made himself worthy of receiving them by suffering

through innumerable reincarnations and having compassionately vowed to

strive for the salvation of all mankind.

 

Transmission and ordination. These traditions, however fanciful, served a purpose.

They established the sanctity of the scriptures as direct gifts from the

gods. They also laid the foundations for mundane transmissions of sacred texts.

Once the texts found their way into human hands it was the responsibility of

the recipients to pass them on to worthy recipients. By the fifth century with

the appearance of the first liturgy for ordinations, compiled by *Lu Xiujing,

the process of transmission became codified (see *Lingbao shoudu yi). Taoist

investitures were the liturgical confirmation of a master’s transmission of texts

to his disciple and were overwhelmingly juridical in nature. There were three

legal formalities required of ordinands. The first were covenants by which they

bound themselves to the gods and promised to venerate the scriptures. The

punishment for violating such pacts was condemnation to the dark prisons

of eternal night in hell. The second were vows. Ordinands gave their word

that they would be temperate, chaste, compassionate, humane, benevolent,

tolerant, and filial. The third were oaths. Ordinands swore never to transmit

the canon indiscriminately, reveal its contents, violate its admonitions, converse

or disparage the scriptures, or bestow the texts for a fee. To guarantee that

they would never breach their word, they had to submit pledges in the form

of gold, cash and textiles.

[exorcist_1699]

Although Wang Chong-yang , founder of the religion Quanzhen (Complete Reality ) , is said to have seven outstanding disciples, for example, Ma Dan-yang, Sun Bu-er .. , it was Qiu Chu-ji who , after Wang's death, traveled thousands of miles across deserts and snowbound mountains, met Genghis Khan in his palace located in a region now we call Afghanistan in 1222, and won the political leader over so as to initialize the widespread influence of Quanzhen across the Northern China. And, It was Qiu who established a school called Longmen (Dragon Gate ) which has been prevailing for nearly eight hundreds years in the Taoist history, up to the present .

By comparing the Pre-Celestial with Wu-Liu school , a sect which comes from Longmen and inherited many legacies from Longmen's and Quanzhen's , I hope I can answer partly the question about the difference or similarities between Quanzhen and the Pre-Celestial way raised by SereneBlue:

1) Wu-Liu never talks about sexual intercourse or using other sex's body as a means in our practice; Similarly hardly does the Pre-Celestial talk about such kind of sex practice.

2) In Wu-Liu 's writings, what we see are lot of teachings introduced from Buddhism , the emphasize on the importance of purifying our mind is also very clear , which all reflect that Quanzhen is a religion deeply affected by Buddhism; Yet in the Pre-Celestian , it is the Zen Buddhism's special influence that is more significant.

3) Wu-Liu emphasizes the stages of fully refining jing into qi, and then qi into shen, and points out that the completion of both can be manifested by some symptons that a practitioner gets in his/her practice. For examples, in case of male, it is the total stop of leakage of jing and his balls fully retreat into his body that show us the completion of the process of jing refinement;

qi's refining into shen is signified by how many times of flashing of light he/she experiences..etc;

Hardly will the Pre-Celestial school be entangled by such strict classification of steps or stages, or certain experiences in practice.

4) Wu-Liu insists that the circulation of high-quality qi, after our having attained the embryonic breathing, should turn around the Du-meridian and Ren-meridian , and views it as some kind of necessity.

However, in the Pre-Celestial , the so-called Micro-Cosmic Circulation is never anything absolutely necessary, what is emphasized is the natural flow of qi, not any specific paths.

5) Wu-Liu seldom talks about the issue of the Magic Gateway ( "玄關" ); maybe its masters think that by having fully accumulated jing and qi, the Gateway will appear naturally so there is no need to deliberately mention it ?

In the Pre-Celestial , the attainment of Magic Gateway is a key issue; Some keys are :

" The Pre-Celestial Qi is really called the Magic Gateway" ( "先天一氣號玄關 ") ;

So, the rise of it also means the open of the Gateway?

"Any shift of our mind is the Magic Gateway " ("念頭動處是玄關" ) ;

The influence of Zen's method is clearly shown here.

Edited February 5, 2013 by exorcist_1699

[Ya Mu]

..., nice to see somebody with knowledge and wisdom once in a while on this board

 

 

YM

Yes!

I look forward to reading posts by both you and Walker.

Folks such as you and Walker are actually studying and practicing. A breath of fresh air; thanks to both of you for posting. Please keep it up.

[Walker]

You fellas are too kind

[Jeff]

It does indeed, perhaps because that is the kind of transmission he was thinking of when he wrote that post? The thing is, that's not the same thing as the kind of transmission YMWong was talking about. "Transmission" (in it's most general sense) is the sharing of information (in it's most general sense) directly through energy. Would you assume two books are about the same topic just because they are both written on paper? In this case the two books are connection to a specific lineage and direct induction into the natural state.

Even though you described it as rhetorical, I thought I would respond...

 

There are basically two types (levels) of energy based transmissions. They are mind-mind and light-light. An example of mind-mind would be an astral visit or sometimes a vivid dream. A light transmission from a master/guru is beyond the ability of the mind to percieve, and is based in the "heart". Usually, the understanding creeps into the conscious mind over a period of time.

 

At the "physical" level! a transmission is usually from speaking or found in writing. But, a master/guru "transmits" on all levels, no matter what the medium. So for those with the "capacity", they can receive a light transmission from reading a book (or holding an object).

 

Best wishes, Jeff

 

p.s. The paper (human consciousness) is the same for all traditions. The information and level/strength of transmission is not. Also, I have found that the key in any transmission is the "openness" to receive it.

[flowing hands]

lineages are difficult to trace especially when they are martial ones. I have received the lineages of many styles of martial art, most of these have never been transmitted to others. Although I have taught others certain arts in the past it doesn't mean that they have received that lineage, because their training was incomplete. Religious schools are even worse for transmission of the teachings, because they can be added to or not taught properly, students of some schools can set up their own versions etc etc. What one thinks in a genuine lineage and genuine arts can also not be genuine as the transmission to inner students can be wrong and there is no measuring stick to gauge by. Quite a mess I think.

[三江源]

Yes!

I look forward to reading posts by both you and Walker.

Folks such as you and Walker are actually studying and practicing. A breath of fresh air; thanks to both of you for posting. Please keep it up.

Yes, thankyou both, from me too.

[gendao]

(It was demonstrated to me, e.g., by a very accomplished taoist master in China who is a TCM practitioner of the "national treasure" caliber. He treated me with some acupuncture, and he chose to throw the needles at me from across the room, like they do in all those cheesy dim mak movie scenes. He threw needles at my hands, head, and forehead. I was terrified more than I was impressed. I asked his English-speaking student why the doctor used this technique on me, what the medical reasons may have been. "No medical reasons -- he just likes to show off," was the response. "He could easily do it the ordinary way, but he's proud of his skill.")

Wow, could you tell us more about this master? Name, age, location, arts he trained in, etc?

[Taomeow]

He studied taoism in the Longmen Pai tradition (still does) and TCM and MA with two old masters, now deceased, since he was a teenager. He is located in Shaanxi province. He is about 40. He sees patients two days a week, early morning till late at night -- up to 120 on a busy day. On a typical weekend, big kahunas in Beijing fly him there for medical consultations. The rest of his time is dedicated to taoist cultivation, practice of MA, and studies of a wide range of subjects (his knowledge is encyclopedic). Such is the life of a modern young sage. His name, which was dragged to fame by journalists in the past, he tries to protect against this happening again in the future, so I'll have to respect his desire for obscurity.

[flyinghigh]

He studied taoism in the Longmen Pai tradition (still does) and TCM and MA with two old masters, now deceased, since he was a teenager. He is located in Shaanxi province.

Would that be the same lineage as that of Master Wang?

[Taomeow]

Very much so.