Looking for Proof of advanced taoist master's abilities

[tsa]

[DentyDao]

[thaddeus]

I think your idea is a great one. I would use some scientists who have a little more credibility than Randi. He has no real science background and I would question any scientists he is promoting.

 

S

This is from his website:

(8) But you're not a scientist. How can you speak on these matters with authority?

 

Authority does not rest with scientists, when emotion, need, and desperation are involved. Scientists are human beings, too; they can be deceived and self-deceived. We at the JREF are skilled in two directions: we know how people are fooled by others, and we know how people fool themselves. We deal with hard, basic, facts, and we try our best to make them known. We try to protect people from influences that might obscure the true danger of uncritical thinking. We often succeed. And we have very substantial and eminent scientific authorities on hand to provide the advice and specialization we require.

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#randi

 

I took a look at the site and some of the applications..I wouldn't poo poo it so quickly. I think some of the taobums who have made some claims should pony up and then take us all out to dinner..what do y'all think?

T

[DentyDao]

This is from his website:

(8) But you're not a scientist. How can you speak on these matters with authority?

 

Authority does not rest with scientists, when emotion, need, and desperation are involved. Scientists are human beings, too; they can be deceived and self-deceived. We at the JREF are skilled in two directions: we know how people are fooled by others, and we know how people fool themselves. We deal with hard, basic, facts, and we try our best to make them known. We try to protect people from influences that might obscure the true danger of uncritical thinking. We often succeed. And we have very substantial and eminent scientific authorities on hand to provide the advice and specialization we require.

http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#randi

 

I took a look at the site and some of the applications..I wouldn't poo poo it so quickly. I think some of the taobums who have made some claims should pony up and then take us all out to dinner..what do y'all think?

T

 

I think Randi has elevated skepticism to the level of a cult. What he's saying is that he is the ultimate judge. This is retarded. At some point in the next few decades a group of serious thinkers will bare out the facts. Look at the history of science; every hundred years evreything we thought we knew changes completely, It's evolving toward the realization the power of the mind is creating "reality" and whatever we can dream eventually becomes reality. This is why it's important to keep an open mind. This doesn't mean ordinary people can just go outside with no training and fly around like immortals, but the technology is out there for that too.

 

We put a man on the moon and there are still people who don't believe it. Not because they think it's a conspiracy; they're just that stupid.

 

This is basic Buddhism.

Edited January 23, 2007 by seandenty

[witch]

All he does is ask people to do what they say they can do. They design the test--he just adds safeguards.

[thaddeus]

Look at the history of science; every hundred years evreything we thought we knew changes completely, It's evolving toward the realization the power of the mind is creating "reality" and whatever we can dream eventually becomes reality.

Good point. I just thought of something..i wonder if a quantum physicist can apply and say he's going to show 'paranormal' stuff like particles being in two places at one time or a particle affecting another..etc. etc.

hmmm

T

[tsa]

[DentyDao]

Good point. I just thought of something..i wonder if a quantum physicist can apply and say he's going to show 'paranormal' stuff like particles being in two places at one time or a particle affecting another..etc. etc.

hmmm

T

 

Now you've got the spirit. A crack has appeared in the darkness. Stay open.

[DentyDao]

Edited January 23, 2007 by seandenty

[tsa]

[DentyDao]

Okay. What scientists? Where? You name it.

 

Are you making an offer?

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what school of Buddhism you are a member of...

 

It's called Dzogchen. The name means great inclusion because it includes all teachings of the Buddha including the Vajra Tantras.

 

I do not believe this faith has anything to do with supernatural claims.

 

Try doing your home work.

[tsa]

Try doing your home work.

 

Wow. You're right. In your lineage I guess you can attain great stuff...

 

http://www.dzogchenlineage.org/faq.html

 

Says:

 

"Can modern day practitioners receive blessings from the Dzogchen lineage masters, even though they lived so many years ago?

 

Practitioners continue to receive the blessings of the Dzogchen Lineage up to this very day. In 1924 Khenchen Tsewang Rigdzin came to the Holy Dzogchen Area, met Vimalamitra, and directly received teachings and empowerments. He then meditated for many years and achieved high realization. Later, in 1958, while being taken to prison by the Chinese army, he flew into the sky and disappeared in front of everyone. In another instance, an ordinary Tibetan hunter, Sonam Namgyal, secretly practiced the Dzogchen Nyingthig for many years in the sacred Dzogchen area and, in 1952, attained Rainbow Body in front of thousands of people.

 

In 1977, our Master, Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche received powerful blessings from Guru Padmasambhava and then in 1984, he received blessings several times from Shri Singha."

 

Flew into the sky! Amazing! So, you've must have seen all kinds of amazing stuff from the advanced pratictioners. Cany you give us details?

[Pero]

...sigh...

 

BTW Sean, interesting to translate Dzogchen as Great Inclusion. While this is true (Dzogchen teachings can include basically anything from sutra to tantra), as far as I know, Dzogchen means Total Perfection. It has been translated as Great Perfection as well, but I read that this is not right since great implies that there is something small (not great lol, don`t know right word) as well, while Dzogchen is beyond that. In any case, words....

[DentyDao]

Wow. You're right. In your lineage I guess you can attain great stuff...

 

http://www.dzogchenlineage.org/faq.html

 

Says:

 

"Can modern day practitioners receive blessings from the Dzogchen lineage masters, even though they lived so many years ago?

 

Practitioners continue to receive the blessings of the Dzogchen Lineage up to this very day. In 1924 Khenchen Tsewang Rigdzin came to the Holy Dzogchen Area, met Vimalamitra, and directly received teachings and empowerments. He then meditated for many years and achieved high realization. Later, in 1958, while being taken to prison by the Chinese army, he flew into the sky and disappeared in front of everyone. In another instance, an ordinary Tibetan hunter, Sonam Namgyal, secretly practiced the Dzogchen Nyingthig for many years in the sacred Dzogchen area and, in 1952, attained Rainbow Body in front of thousands of people.

 

In 1977, our Master, Dzogchen Khenpo Choga Rinpoche received powerful blessings from Guru Padmasambhava and then in 1984, he received blessings several times from Shri Singha."

 

Flew into the sky! Amazing! So, you've must have seen all kinds of amazing stuff from the advanced pratictioners. Cany you give us details?

The website you have found is my teachers. He has directly received the blessing of both the Buddha and Padmasambava among others. If you meet my teacher you can ask him about it and see what kind of response you get.

 

 

BTW Sean, interesting to translate Dzogchen as Great Inclusion. While this is true (Dzogchen teachings can include basically anything from sutra to tantra), as far as I know, Dzogchen means Total Perfection. It has been translated as Great Perfection as well, but I read that this is not right since great implies that there is something small (not great lol, don`t know right word) as well, while Dzogchen is beyond that. In any case, words....

 

Both are correct.

[tsa]

The website you have found is my teachers. He has directly received the blessing of both the Buddha and Padmasambava among others. If you meet my teacher you can ask him about it and see what kind of response you get.

 

I've sent an email regarding this to [email protected] (found on the website). I will post any response I recieve.

 

Have you yourself ever asked your teacher or have you witnessed a supernatural feat? Do you intend someday to achieve this level of understanding?

[Starjumper]

Randi is a RIPOFF, end of story, he's crooked, he's scamming people. Like I said in another post, read his contract. In it it says that no matter what the outcome of a test, he has the final say, and if his final say disagrees with the facts the sucker who spent all that time and money and effort to go to him is not allowed to sue him. That's in the contract.

 

I spoke with one of Randi's fellow criminals and he described in detail how they set up tests very carefully so as to negate the abilities being tested, in order to do so obviously they know that such things can be done or they wouldn't know how to foil them. Doing these things they have proven that people can't sense external chi and can't see auras, and I know damn well that it can be done. Maybe his original motivation was to disprove fakes, which is fine, but he gets a lot of money from 'supporters' who like what he's doing, and if he ever gave away the million dollars he would lose a lot of income and his CUSTOMERS would no longer believe him.

 

Anyone who suggests to another that they pay to travel across the country or the world and spend money for a hotel and restautants in order to collect the money from Randi is doing a giant disservice to their friend.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Starjumper7

[tsa]

Randi is a RIPOFF, end of story, he's crooked, he's scamming people. Like I said in another post, read his contract. In it it says that no matter what the outcome of a test, he has the final say, and if his final say disagrees with the facts the sucker who spent all that time and money and effort to go to him is not allowed to sue him. That's in the contract.

 

I spoke with one of Randi's fellow criminals and he described in detail how they set up tests very carefully so as to negate the abilities being tested, in order to do so obviously they know that such things can be done or they wouldn't know how to foil them. Doing these things they have proven that people can't sense external chi and can't see auras, and I know damn well that it can be done. Maybe his original motivation was to disprove fakes, which is fine, but he gets a lot of money from 'supporters' who like what he's doing, and if he ever gave away the million dollars he would lose a lot of income and his CUSTOMERS would no longer believe him.

 

Anyone who suggests to another that they pay to travel across the country or the world and spend money for a hotel and restautants in order to collect the money from Randi is doing a giant disservice to their friend.

 

Okay, if you don't like James Randi, then try a challenge that does not involve him listed under "Similar offers" on this webpage:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_E...onal_Foundation

 

Can you please tell me what experiance you've had with these supernatural forces? How is it helpful if you sense this external chi or see auras?

 

Can you please tell me how you would design an objective test to prove these things are happening?

[Wayfarer64]

Tsa,

You seem to be such a sincere young man who has boldly made a very natural-seeming flow towards Mr. Denty's Candy-apple stand.

 

The very notion of you being a schill for him/his master seems outragious on the face of it, but some here do not trust him, nor what he claims.

 

This will always be the case, there are differing ideas as to truth and wisdom and the value of what uses we put our energies to.

 

There are far more down to earth reasons to learn about the Tao than the self-serving power-mongering of alchemy and the striving for one particular (mis?)conception of immortality.

 

There is a dark side, as it were, to Taoism. You have found it quite quickly. If these men have such powers why are they not serving their fellow beings as any self-respecting saintlike being would? Why do they covet these blessings and sell them as great promise of personal power as they inslave their followers?

 

If you seek power for its own sake -stay with that bunch, but be prepared to pay with the very essence of your being, they will suck the life out of you promising immortality.

 

You would be better served to consult the I Ching before you procede with the path you seem to have so breath-takingly stumbled onto.-

 

If you are not a shill -than, just be mindful where-ever you go, there are many paths and most are not what you expect them to be.

 

I for one shall continue to express my disbelief, and total distrust, not of the content of Denty's claims but of the honesty of his intent to do good with what he knows.

 

Look inside of your own heart FIRST for the right and wrong of any act or choice. Concider what is important to you.

 

There is more than one path to immortality. Those who seek power over other's spirit will deprive you of yours to maintain their own.

[tsa]

Tsa,

You seem to be such a sincere young man who has boldly made a very natural-seeming flow towards Mr. Denty's Candy-apple stand.

 

The very notion of you being a schill for him/his master seems outragious on the face of it, but some here do not trust him, nor what he claims.

 

This will always be the case, there are differing ideas as to truth and wisdom and the value of what uses we put our energies to.

 

There are far more down to earth reasons to learn about the Tao than the self-serving power-mongering of alchemy and the striving for one particular (mis?)conception of immortality.

 

There is a dark side, as it were, to Taoism. You have found it quite quickly. If these men have such powers why are they not serving their fellow beings as any self-respecting saintlike being would? Why do they covet these blessings and sell them as great promise of personal power as they inslave their followers?

 

If you seek power for its own sake -stay with that bunch, but be prepared to pay with the very essence of your being, they will suck the life out of you promising immortality.

 

You would be better served to consult the I Ching before you procede with the path you seem to have so breath-takingly stumbled onto.-

 

If you are not a shill -than, just be mindful where-ever you go, there are many paths and most are not what you expect them to be.

 

I for one shall continue to express my disbelief, and total distrust, not of the content of Denty's claims but of the honesty of his intent to do good with what he knows.

 

Look inside of your own heart FIRST for the right and wrong of any act or choice. Concider what is important to you.

 

There is more than one path to immortality. Those who seek power over other's spirit will deprive you of yours to maintain their own.

 

Apart from the fact that I would still require proof that these supernatural powers do in fact exist and whatever that stuff about Mr. Denty's Candy-apple stand is, I agree with you for the most part. Anybody who undertakes a practice in order to gain these abilities will be going in the wrong direction and will end up further from the Truth and ultimate understanding then ever before.

 

Are you callig me a Shill (of James Randi?) for asking for scientific proof?

 

I would still like for just one member of this forum to explain in detial one of these supernatural encouters and if the encounter can be repeated under controlled circumstances. I do not need any sort of explaination, only repeatable proof.

 

Is there anybody out there that agrees with me in the slightest?

[Wayfarer64]

Tsa,

 

I agree with you,

 

We need science in any reasonable discussion of such abilities... But delving into practice and reading may be enough to start you seeing the potentials you have yourself, have you done much meditation or qi-gong to get a feel for it?

 

I was not asking the shill thing for the Randi connection. The candy-apple comment was just to indicate that I have a total distrust of much of what some folks here claim as their own to sell. Your WOW etc... line that you wrote- gave me the feeling that you were faking this whole questioning thing to promote that site...That is how deep my distrust of this direction goes. It sounded like you were hyping the site.

 

Avoid the comoditization of the Tao as some sort of make it yourself power-drink,selling one's sacred connection to the cosmic source of basic forces such as creativity and receptivity is a travesty, if not the original devel's bargain.

 

Many of us have been asking for proofs and intention from those who are claiming these abilities. Still, I don't doubt the essence of many of these claims, just the degree to which the claimants have professed knowledge while exhibiting little understanding of what I believe to be the needed components of humility and compassion to grow into such power..

 

There is proof to my mind that many of these things are real, and may be developed to astounding degrees. So I remain , shall we say - optomistic that many of these astounding feats may be proved and attainable by scientific method as well as emperical experience. Having trained and worked on myself I have little doubt as to the potentials. There are quite a few threads and entries of experiences here, maybe not done under scientific conditions but real to the senses of those who witnessed them.

 

You are quite wise, in these days of religious extremism to doubt any claims of superiority of belief system from anyone. Such hubris is a blight on all men's search for contact with devine energies, as many of us work and pray/meditate for enlightenment.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Wayfarer64

[tsa]

Thank you for your comments. I hope others in this forum take note, especially the younger and more vulnerable members. Just because a "master" appears to perform miraculous feats, or say they can, please look at this objectively and don't be afraid to ask for proof.

 

As Wayfarer64 has implied, and I repeat... These "special powers" are not the endgame of Eastern philosophies. In Zen they are looked at as a distracting side effect not to be reveled in. Real practice is getting yourself on a meditation mat day in and day out.

[rex]

Is there anybody out there that agrees with me in the slightest?

 

I agree! Claims to supernatural powers, especially if used as part of some sort of marketing plan, should be demonstratable - otherwise it is a matter for the faithful.

 

For the most part abilities stubbornly refuse to be tested- wasn't there that guy though who could project images onto photographic film?

 

When it comes to spiritual belief systems testing powers may be undesirable and difficult for a number of reasons:

* The use of abilities may be proscribed to specfic circumstances and may operate at levels not demonstrable to scientific instruments or ordinary human faculties.

* The whole idea of demonstrating may be inherently distasteful.

* Abilities may be viewed as a sidetrack and unimportant.

* People with abilities may be wary of princes and kings.

 

The field is left open to charlatans and the predatory.

 

Charles Tart talks about state dependent science in that phenomena may be repeatable if the participants share the same mental state and faculties. So yoga may be a repeatable state dependent science. Aderents of spiritual disciplines say that anyone can experience for themselves their claims but what mechanistic scientist or enquiring sceptic would have the willingness to put the years of training and disciplne in?

[Pero]

As Wayfarer64 has implied, and I repeat... These "special powers" are not the endgame of Eastern philosophies. In Zen they are looked at as a distracting side effect not to be reveled in. Real practice is getting yourself on a meditation mat day in and day out.

 

I don`t think anyone is saying that. Just that powers can (do) appear with practice. They are just signs of practice, called nyams (if I remember right) in Tibetan. Which are a positive sign, as it means that practice is working. Of course, one should get attached to them, since they can then become an obstacle on the path.

In any case, attachment is a bitch, people seem to be focusing on attachments to superpowers, while at the same time they have hundreds of their own attachments to other things. Attachment is attachment, whether it be to superpowers, to women, to hamburgers, or to something else. No difference.

 

And I would say that what real practice is for someone, depends on each person.

 

I agree! Claims to supernatural powers, especially if used as part of some sort of marketing plan, should be demonstratable - otherwise it is a matter for the faithful.

 

Yes, I guess if you claim something you should be able to demonstrate it. But, one could argue that these things were demonstrated... Just not under the conditions others would like. In the end, usually the true non-believers won`t ever believe it, and the faitful don`t really care.

[tsa]

I don`t think anyone is saying that. Just that powers can (do) appear with practice. They are just signs of practice, called nyams (if I remember right) in Tibetan. Which are a positive sign, as it means that practice is working. Of course, one should get attached to them, since they can then become an obstacle on the path.

In any case, attachment is a bitch, people seem to be focusing on attachments to superpowers, while at the same time they have hundreds of their own attachments to other things. Attachment is attachment, whether it be to superpowers, to women, to hamburgers, or to something else. No difference.

 

And I would say that what real practice is for someone, depends on each person.

 

I agree with you 100% on the attachment thing. That is the point I was attempting to make that you did much better. I also agree with your statment regarding the fact that for each person there is a different path.

 

Yes, I guess if you claim something you should be able to demonstrate it. But, one could argue that these things were demonstrated... Just not under the conditions others would like. In the end, usually the true non-believers won`t ever believe it, and the faitful don`t really care.

 

I disagree with this though. You do not need to be a believer or non believer to say something that affects the physical world happened, or didn't happen. Either somebody flew through the air or they didn't, light things on fire or not, create electric shocks, etc. All of these things are testable. I'm not talking about things that are not testable; I'm only talking about the claims that should be testable under any normal circumstances. Many of these types of things people have claimed to see in these forums.

 

I think there would be a lot of people in the world that would care very much if these things were possible. Myself included.

[thaddeus]

Randi is a RIPOFF, end of story, he's crooked, he's scamming people. Like I said in another post, read his contract. In it it says that no matter what the outcome of a test, he has the final say, and if his final say disagrees with the facts the sucker who spent all that time and money and effort to go to him is not allowed to sue him. That's in the contract.

 

I spoke with one of Randi's fellow criminals and he described in detail how they set up tests very carefully so as to negate the abilities being tested, in order to do so obviously they know that such things can be done or they wouldn't know how to foil them. Doing these things they have proven that people can't sense external chi and can't see auras, and I know damn well that it can be done. Maybe his original motivation was to disprove fakes, which is fine, but he gets a lot of money from 'supporters' who like what he's doing, and if he ever gave away the million dollars he would lose a lot of income and his CUSTOMERS would no longer believe him.

 

Anyone who suggests to another that they pay to travel across the country or the world and spend money for a hotel and restautants in order to collect the money from Randi is doing a giant disservice to their friend.

 

Here is the link to the contract:

http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

I don't see anything unreasonable or crooked in there.

 

I think a very basic thing to do is move something with mind power. Very simple, very reproducible. Completely unarguable.

If it can be shown, it would usher in a completely new understanding. It doesn't matter if Randi keeps the money for himself. If it got to this point, a million dollars is completely and utterly meaningless. Don't you all get it?

If a person could really move something, it doesn't matter what the F* randi does to try to mess it up, he can make the guy stand on his head, it won't stop him from moving the object.

Guys, wake up!! Seriously..

T