Looking for Proof of advanced taoist master's abilities

[DentyDao]

I am sorry to say that I could not find the time to attend...I need to phone and say sorry/hi to AiWai- I appologize now...

 

You are now on AiWai's ignor list.

 

SD-should we send ya some Depends? Keeping EVERYTHING in yr pants can be trying! We may get sillier yet!

 

Depends would ruin all the fun, but thanks for the thought.

 

But in all semi-seriousness those sexy woman may test our abilities to maintain our qi and or mojo with so little effort I think that is a pretty super-power in itself...

 

It's a problem...

[ipalapak]

[Ian]

They were all allowed to ask questions and see multiple demonstrations which included using qi to light dry grass on fire and change water into a sweet tasting substance with healing properties.

 

The water changing was my favorite because we all watched a couple different masters do it and we all tasted the same super sweet effect. Basically the master puts his hand next to a bottle of water and projects his qi into it for about two or three minutes. I tasted the water before and after and I was amazed. It has the sweetest pure taste like the most refined honey with no aftertaste. The water has all kinds of healing properties like effectively treating diabetes, increasing flexibility as well as a whole host of other remarkable effects.

 

Just occured to me to wonder if the biblical story about Christ turning water into "wine" was a description of something like that. Would kinda make sense. "Wine" might be the nearest word for a tasty liquid that wasn't a recognisable fruit juice and had an effect on the system. Just a thought.

[thaddeus]

[DentyDao]

I read the article a while ago. It's not really that clear, but I think it's a reporter and a stage magician spectulating on how the old guy faked it. I wouldn't assume anything from the article, but I haven't seen the demonstration, so I can't swear by it either.

 

There are a lot of fakes out there too.

 

S

[DentyDao]

A real magician like David Blain could easily do these things and make them look far more convincing; part of the reason why you can't blame people for being skeptical.

 

S

Edited February 2, 2007 by seandenty

[mYTHmAKER]

Just occured to me to wonder if the biblical story about Christ turning water into "wine" was a description of something like that. Would kinda make sense. "Wine" might be the nearest word for a tasty liquid that wasn't a recognisable fruit juice and had an effect on the system. Just a thought.

 

Good one. Makes sense to me.

[spyrelx]

[DentyDao]

 

 

Sean, what are you saying here? Are you saying you think the demonstration on that video was a real example of that guy's ability with chi -- or are you saying it may well be just a simple magician's trick?

 

 

I'm saying I don't know if this particular demo is fake or not. I personally believe it's real and the other demonstrations that I did see are real. Anyway, make up your own mind as you will. There are plenty of good reasons to doubt stuff like this.

 

As for the rest of your post, I think your getting a little carried away. I'm not here to convince you, just sharing my personal experiences and presenting information that I feel is valuable. Like a few others, you have over internalized some of the things I have written about; probably because you would like to believe they are real and are attracted to the idea.

 

The people that gravitate to David are very serious and have dedicated their lives to these practices. It's really not for everybody and I wouldn't even recommend it for most people out there. Anyway, you don't really need a person like David to go to China and find these kinds of masters; It helps, don't get me wrong, but if you look long enough, you will probably find a master who can show you something 'supernatural.'

 

I know you are young and a few thousand dollars is small fortune in your eyes, but it's really not that big a deal. David's courses are pretty reasonable in Denmark; no more or less than what a lot of qualified teachers charge. I took over 10,000 dollars worth of courses to get my Healing Dao instructor certification. David is offering a lineage transmission from Wang Liping for a fraction of that; the guy is giving it away. You want to sit here and complain about the lack of proof. Why would any teacher worth their salt bother?

 

S

[ipalapak]

[Wayfarer64]

I should have remembered these mighty critters earlier for this thread...

 

http://www.tardigrades.com/

 

They have to be the most super-naturaly endowed race of beings on planet...

[spyrelx]

Just a few things and then I'll drop this

 

Like a few others, you have over internalized some of the things I have written about; probably because you would like to believe they are real and are attracted to the idea.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "internalize", let alone "over internalize", or the import of the rest of that sentence. As I said, you've been pretty consistent with your arguments, both here and on the HT board. It's rare that you jump into a discussion without hitting those three points I highlighted. Since we both seem to be seeking spiritual growth, and since you passionately argue for a certain path, a path I'm also thinking about pursuing, it concerns me when you appear to contradict yourself.

 

I'm not here to convince you, just sharing my personal experiences and presenting information that I feel is valuable.

 

The people that gravitate to David are very serious and have dedicated their lives to these practices. It's really not for everybody and I wouldn't even recommend it for most people out there.

 

Maybe that's all true but, again, it's rare that you don't hit those three points in one form or another. Indeed, I first became aware of you precisely because you were on the HT board to advertise David's teachings. I think your initial postings on here were similar but I'm not sure. You also run his website, have its url on your signature here, etc.

 

As I said before, it doesn't bother me that you make the arguments you make, or even that you want to share the opportunity to study with David. But I think you can certainly be seen as promoting his upcomming classes. If you don't think you are you might want to reexamine what you're putting out.

 

 

I know you are young and a few thousand dollars is small fortune in your eyes, but it's really not that big a deal. David's courses are pretty reasonable in Denmark; no more or less than what a lot of qualified teachers charge. I took over 10,000 dollars worth of courses to get my Healing Dao instructor certification. David is offering a lineage transmission from Wang Liping for a fraction of that; the guy is giving it away. You want to sit here and complain about the lack of proof. Why would any teacher worth their salt bother?

 

 

I am young, but not nearly as young as you are.

 

Regarding the numbers, a few thousand dollars would be two or three, which would be the Denmark class. China would be six or seven, not counting airfare. I don't consider either a small fortune, but I do consider them considerably higher than what most people would charge for a two week class. So before I'd spend it I'd at least want to feel relatively secure that it was worth it.

 

It is also astounding to me that you or anyone else would spend $10,000 on HT programs.

 

Let's say the china class costs $7,000 per person. In a place like china, it's inconceivable to me that the actual expenses of running that class for three weeks (space, food, etc.) would cost more than $2,000 (it's probably much much less). Which means there's at least $5,000 profit per student. Let's say 10 students go. That's at least $50,000 profit for three weeks. If this money is for David's master (as he's strongly implied it is) then I'd say that is an extraordinary amount of money in a country like China, even with their current economy. A simply astounding amount of cash. Assuming the Wang LiPing lineage isn't the only true teaching, then I'd also say there are many many teachers "worth their salt" who would charge a lot less, particularly in china.

 

Obvioiusly David can charge what he wants. And I agree with you that one could view a beneficial transmission as "priceless". But I think it's perfectly rational to ask a lot of questions ("to sit here asking for proof" as you might say) before taking such a costly plunge. As you say, it's not for everybody. Indeed, I would add that, at those admission prices, it's only either for the foolish, or for those who have done their research and satisfied themselves that it's the right path to pursue.

[Smile]

Assuming the Wang LiPing lineage isn't the only true teaching, then I'd also say there are many many teachers "worth their salt" who would charge a lot less, particularly in china.

True. Plus you're not going to study with Wang LiPing but with David, with a promise of possibility of meeting some other master to get "empowerment".

[sunshine]

I am with neither of you guys...

 

let me give my thoughts on the subject:

 

There are many out there doing trips to China and they all charge their fair amount of money... if I want to meet a special person I have to consider to have to pay a price. Either it is a teacher for piano class or for singing... even low level teacher charge one amounts that easily lead one to a similar price range if all gets broken down to price per hour...

 

for all I gathered the Denmark costs are a kind of entry cost (for first training ever) and it can well be that the training costs in subsequent years will be far less...

 

regarding the question of superpowers and this special case. I have no clue if it is fake or not, but to the point that even the master was said that it is a fake there could be a very different reason than to be serious about this...: I always wonder why anyone really having these powers would really want to know everybody about it...

[anybody ever saw Superman? He always had a reason to not tell and it was a good one...!]

 

I think that the investment in the Denmark training should give one enough insight if the practices promises what it promises as it is said that clear signs can be seen even with this practice... (though no superpowers if I remember correctly)... the amount of money weighs heavy for all that have to invest into travelling as welll and for those who do not have it, but this includes the trouble with every kind of training one wants to get, whatever it is in...

 

let me just tell you something: a doctor recently offered me to get a hospitation day in his private practice to learn how he set it up in a special way for it to work efficiently: he usually asks for 300 Euros for only one day...

 

it is the same everywhere...

 

with smiles

 

Harry

[Wayfarer64]

Materialism is everywhere. It is the way of the world. Most people plan their lives around making money, and seekers of other ways to live are not getting very far with any change of that plan. China is the best example of capitalism's attractions.

 

I am a capitalist also. I charge on a sliding scale to do work for others. From free, to help protect and inforce tenant's rights in New Jersey, up to $150. 00 per hour to represent artists in their various issues with clients. Most I charge much less to help.

 

Some of the charges mentioned here, seem pretty high for anyone living in China, and I am sure there are much less expensive teachers of equal or greater stature who have no western representatives as go-betweens. Materialism is off-putting to many who wish to transcend the grip of ego and whatever Kharmic ties that bind. It seems to run counter to the realization of many concepts some of us seek to make our own.

 

I for one suspect those who are overtly materialistic in their dealings, no matter what they are trying to sell me. Likewise, greedy attitudes seem to show a lack of inner character and surity of spirit that I would not want in any teacher, no matter what the subject of training.

[DentyDao]

Hey guys,

 

If you are that concerned, then don't go. It's really not for everyone. As for the old guy in the video, I have seen dozens of videos of this skill being performed. It's considered pretty low level stuff to be honest. In Mo Pai for example, all level two students have to do it with smaller objects. I personally wouldn't jump to any conclusions until I saw a good translation of the article and understood the context of what's being shown.

 

You guys are welcome throw up a full cost analysis on the web and debate the pros and cons of what David is offering. If people want to go great, more power to them; if not, that's fine too. The real test is if you, by doing the training, can perform these skills. It's the only real way to know for sure. That's what David does; he trains people to be able to go through the the levels one, two and three, etc... All the rest is academic.

 

I wish you guys all the best in searching. I can understand the doubts you are having, it's par for the course really. When I first met David, I gave him the third degree and a even pissed him off a little with all my questioning. Then I just decided to see for myself. Once I met some of his students and begin to experience it a little more, it just clicked and I knew it was for me. Not everyone is going to have this experience, but not everyone is right for it either. Not a bad or good thing.

 

S

[mYTHmAKER]

My problem is I can't see David.

He is an unknown.

I can see many masters on you tube

I can buy their videos.

I can get some idea of how they move,

their personalities.

[Jonah]

I agree with the recent postings, money is the way of the world, and we all need to charge for our services. Nothing wrong with that at all. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and if you can deliver the goods, people will be willing to pay. Most of the time, it is assumed that the more you pay for something, the better the quality it is.

 

But sometimes you can also get ripped off. The marketing was good, the sales pitch won you over, and so you give over your hard-earned money to get something you think is worth it. It's a gamble, and sometimes you get your moneys worth, sometimes you don't.

 

Caveat emptor -- "Let the buyer beware." This term has been around since the Roman times. There's always been honest merchants and dishonest ones, genuine teachers and snake-oil salesmen. There are charismatic individuals who are well-intentioned and give you what you pay for, and there are others who will sell ice to eskimos, and make a handsome profit getting away with it.

 

We have lemon laws for cars and resources like Consumer Reports to determine what really is a good product and what is just marketing hype. We have tools like US News & World Report to rate universities, and students can rate their own professors online at http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ . We can go to rottentomatoes to see what a majority of critics think of a certain movie. Etc, etc.

 

But spiritual teachers? There's no independent neutral rating system. The information you get is either through marketing info or testimonials from folks who have tried the teachings and are pleased with them. And the ones who aren't pleased, you may hear from time to time on boards like this.

 

Not much to go on.

 

The chi kung "master" in the video who admitted that his chi powers of moving bricks and glasses was just an "art performance" show, what kind of bullshit is that? Who would want to study under someone who would show off skills that they don't even have. It would be like going to a guitar teacher after hearing him play a bunch of Hendrix songs flawlessly and then finding out that he was just faking it with pre-recorded music.

 

I'm not from the show-me state, but I do think it is wise to do your research and and indeed have some serious skepticism when it comes to extraordinary claims and seductive promises of eventual supernatural powers. Caveat emptor.

[spyrelx]

Hey guys,

 

If you are that concerned, then don't go. It's really not for everyone. As for the old guy in the video, I have seen dozens of videos of this skill being performed. It's considered pretty low level stuff to be honest. In Mo Pai for example, all level two students have to do it with smaller objects. I personally wouldn't jump to any conclusions until I saw a good translation of the article and understood the context of what's being shown.

 

You guys are welcome throw up a full cost analysis on the web and debate the pros and cons of what David is offering. If people want to go great, more power to them; if not, that's fine too. The real test is if you, by doing the training, can perform these skills. It's the only real way to know for sure. That's what David does; he trains people to be able to go through the the levels one, two and three, etc... All the rest is academic.

 

I wish you guys all the best in searching. I can understand the doubts you are having, it's par for the course really. When I first met David, I gave him the third degree and a even pissed him off a little with all my questioning. Then I just decided to see for myself. Once I met some of his students and begin to experience it a little more, it just clicked and I knew it was for me. Not everyone is going to have this experience, but not everyone is right for it either. Not a bad or good thing.

 

S

 

 

Sean,

 

I think we've reached complete agreement, and I appreciate your response.

 

Since you're closer to both David and the Mo Pai tradition than most of us here, I wonder if you could answer a few more questions about what you've experienced. For instance,

 

My reccolection is that David's foundation practice takes about 2 years before people might start to demonstrate telekenetic ability. How long have you been practicing and have you noticed any such ability? (I assume it's too early to tell but just wondering).

 

Also, I assume that David is close to completion of foundation practice (or beyond it). Have you seen him exhibit any telekentic ability?

 

Finally, you were studying Mo Pai for a while, did you see any students there demonstrate supernatural abilities?

 

 

Thanks.

[thelerner]

There is a level of 'trickery' that skilled professionals, masters if you will, sort of use. For example at my Aikido Dojo the instructor had been doing Aikido for 30 years plus, was a 5th level black belt. Going around the U.S. and Japan to keep his skills up and learn more. His skills were remarkable.

 

Yet one of the pictures used in the advertisement was a fake. They shot 30 pictures that were so so, blurry, off center, bad timing etc. Finally the uke took a flying roll, the sensei posed behind him, and wallah finally an excellent photo. Phoney, yeah a little, but Aikido is hard to catch statically.

 

Worse there was a sword taigi where one person is unarmed the other has a boken and there are three passes before the nage disarms and throws. Great learning tool, very dramatic, but its a two person kata, choreographed, though if you move too slow you are hit (wooden sword). During some demos I think it was passed off as truly live. My sensei could in fact disarm random sword attacks. But the kata had spectacular flare to it.

 

In the book 'What Really Matters' the writer talks about a Yoga master who could move a compass needle under highly controlled circumstances. It would take great concentration, he would utter (internally) his mantra thousand of times. But moving a tiny needle 3/4 of an inch is not that impressive. Maybe the person who can move a feather, needs (and feels justified cheating) to move a brick when the cameras are on to impress the out of towners.

 

Michael

[DentyDao]

Spyrelx,

 

I'll humor you. Yes to all of the above except for David and myself (I have only been practicing one year). I have only heard others share what they have seen David do. From what I'm told, he can drink a glass of honey with his penis.

 

Edit: I'll make a deal with you. When I develope some skills. I'll post the video on the forum here for your viewing pleasure. Maybe I can drink a beer with my dick and then put out the flames after my master lights a brush fire with his qi.

Edited February 3, 2007 by seandenty

[spyrelx]

Spyrelx,

 

I'll humor you. Yes to all of the above except for David and myself (I have only been practicing one year). I have only heard others share what they have seen David do. From what I'm told, he can drink a glass of honey with his penis.

 

Edit: I'll make a deal with you. When I develope some skills. I'll post the video on the forum here for your viewing pleasure. Maybe I can drink a beer with my dick and then put out the flames after my master lights a brush fire with his qi.

 

 

Thanks Sean.

 

For the record I don't think sucking up anything with your penis qualifies as a supernatural event. It's just physical training and wholly within the realm of generally accepted biophysics. (Though I would like to see that video when ever you get around to shooting it.)

 

I take it from your response that you've never seen David do anything supernatural but have seen some of John Chang's students do supernatural feats. I'd be interested in hearing more about that but if you're sick of all the questions you can leave us all in mystery.

 

Thanks again.

[DentyDao]

 

I'd be interested in hearing more about that but if you're sick of all the questions you can leave us all in mystery.

 

Thanks again.

 

Hey,

 

No problem. You can log into the foundation forum and ask the man himself, David. He is usually more than happy to answer any and all questions.

 

Just a little tease: John Chang was shocked when David performed telekenesis without the aid of John's yin qi. Most of the Mo Pai students were shocked too. They were dumb founded and John was at a loss for words. That's the story anyway.

 

Best, Sean

Edited February 4, 2007 by seandenty

[Smile]

The following is just my personal opinion here and I'm not trying to put down anyone's beliefs....

 

If you question abilities of a master as being a fraud, would you question a master that doesn't display any abilities as a fraud?

 

My point is, there are some people that have superpowers. Having special abilities doesn't mean they are spiritually evolved. It may be because of their particular training, being born with it, whatever. So saying this, why exactly are you stepping on this path? Is it because you want to grow as a human being or you want to become a part of a circus?

 

Wisdom can not be faked. The energy of words spoken can't be faked either. And that what usualy separates masters who can see things as they are and can uplift and support you where you need the most, and those who have have "flash" but no clue.

 

I believe David has a lot to offer, and my opinion doesn't involve superpowers or his masters. if I get money and time, i'll go and train with him.

[Jonah]

"So saying this, why exactly are you stepping on this path? Is it because you want to grow as a human being or you want to become a part of a circus?"

 

Good posting Smile. You hit the nail on the head.

 

I do not doubt that there are individuals that have extraordinary skills that without training we would call supernatural. (And I do get pissed when they use outright deception to fake it.)

 

The real issue is exactly why are you persuing these superhuman skills to begin with? Is it a search for power? Do you feel you will be a better person once you have such skills? Will you be more complete in a way that you are not right now?

 

If you want to cure cancer with these skills, are you actively working right now to do what you can with your current skill level to help alleviate the pain of cancer patients?

 

If you want to alleviate illness with these skills, are you right now helping those who are ill with the best of your abilities?

 

Are you actively persuing right action and good deeds at the moment that will only be increased thanks to your newfound skills?

 

I'm all for the pursuit of happiness, and I myself feel good about acquiring new skills and talents. There's nothing wrong thatm and it feels great. But as Smile pointed out, supernatural skills don't necessarily equal spiritual development.

 

Electric eels can naturally shock people. Bears have no problem whatsoever hibernating all winter. And bears also can suck honey up with their penises straight out of a swarming beehive. Alright I made that last one up.

 

Point is, if a human performs these same skills, does that make them much more spiritually evolved than us? No doubt they definitely have more skill than us at that particular activity, but to what end?