Looking for Proof of advanced taoist master's abilities

[Trunk]

... I wonder why people get fixated on this topic ...

[spyrelx]

The following is just my personal opinion here and I'm not trying to put down anyone's beliefs....

 

If you question abilities of a master as being a fraud, would you question a master that doesn't display any abilities as a fraud?

 

My point is, there are some people that have superpowers. Having special abilities doesn't mean they are spiritually evolved. It may be because of their particular training, being born with it, whatever. So saying this, why exactly are you stepping on this path? Is it because you want to grow as a human being or you want to become a part of a circus?

 

Wisdom can not be faked. The energy of words spoken can't be faked either. And that what usualy separates masters who can see things as they are and can uplift and support you where you need the most, and those who have have "flash" but no clue.

 

I believe David has a lot to offer, and my opinion doesn't involve superpowers or his masters. if I get money and time, i'll go and train with him.

 

 

Thanks Max. This seem to be one of the rare instances where we are in complete agreement. (Jesus, I'm in complete agreement with both you and Sean. If I find myself agreeing with Plato and Winn anytime soon, my work on this planet is done).

 

For my part, I'm not concerned about achieving any sort of supernatural power (I mean, it would be cool, but it hardly drives me). In a world of guns and the internet, the ability to knock over a brick from 20 feet doesn't really amount to a skill I feel is relevant.

 

However, what I've described as "Sean's argument" has a certain appeal to me. That is, "if you find a lineage that consistently produces students that are able to do these things as a side effect to their spiritual training, then their spiritual training regimen is genuine and effective".

 

This is why I for one keep circling around to the "proof" issue. David and his teachers claim they can do supernatural things -- and claim anyone that does their training can achieve similar capabilities. If that's true then I'm on board because it's likely that their spiritual training regimen is genuine and effective. And I for one very much want a spiritual regimen that is genuine and effective. But of course the whole issue is whether its true.

 

If the first part is true (can do supernatural things) then, knowing a bit about Sean, David, etc., I'm willing to accept on faith that the second part is true (they can teach it). If they're faking the first part, it obviously calls into question the integrity of everything they've presented. That's why "proof" of special powers becomes important to me here.

 

Certainly I accept the fact (unlike perhaps Sean and others) that a valid and effective spiritual path can be one that doesn't manifest ANY supernatural powers, and that there are very capable and powerful teachers who don't have, or teach, such powers. I've studied briefly with a few and hold them in respect. It's just that David and his ilk are claiming to be in a different catagory.

 

One final thought, and it's one that troubles me.

 

The ancient Greeks had an amazing system of astronomy. They mapped the stars, planets, etc. and could predict certain celestial events with pinpoint accuracy. And their whole system was premised on the mistaken belief that the sun revolved around the earth. It wasn't until the Rennasaince -- with the advent of more sophisticated scientific tools and mathematics -- that their system of astronomy started to look flawed. Finally Gallileo and others proved their central beliefs were mistaken, even though their skills (mapping stars, predicting things) would yield consistently correct results time after time.

 

Why is this relevant? Consider the ambiguous nature of any spiritual system. Let's say it's indisputable that Wang Li Ping can levitate and move inatimate objects with his will. Let's say he can teach anyone to do that with 10 years of rigorous spiritual training. Wang Li Ping could still be completely mistaken about much of the philisophical rubric he puts around these effects. His "manifestations" might be verifiable and teachable, but his interpretation -- energy body, daoist immortals, whatever -- might be dead wrong, a completely flawed explanation about what's happening. Just like the ancient Greeks.

 

OK, that's enough. I'm done for the day. Go Bears!

[Smile]

Jesus, I'm in complete agreement with both you and Sean. If I find myself agreeing with Plato and Winn anytime soon, my work on this planet is done.

If you ever find yourselfself agreeing with a champion debator M. Winn, you're either given up on Life or have to get out of the house more often.

Certainly I accept the fact (unlike perhaps Sean and others) that a valid and effective spiritual path can be one that doesn't manifest ANY supernatural powers, and that there are very capable and powerful teachers who don't have, or teach, such powers.

One can certainly have an enlightened mind before the body, and there are cases when the body had to "catch up" and only after many years a master could display abilities. Plus, many masters, especially in Buddhism, do not display superpowers because of the danger a student can side-track on the path.

Let's say it's indisputable that Wang Li Ping can levitate and move inatimate objects with his will. Let's say he can teach anyone to do that with 10 years of rigorous spiritual training.

If you read LiPing's book, he trained really hard to get where he is. If we meditate 5-6 hours a day, it's only a matter of time before stuff starts happening.

 

But again, to me the importance of a evolved teacher is to point you in the right direction and correct you when you side-tracked. That's the main reason why people fail, besides not practicing.

[mYTHmAKER]

However, what I've described as "Sean's argument" has a certain appeal to me. That is, "if you find a lineage that consistently produces students that are able to do these things as a side effect to their spiritual training, then their spiritual training regimen is genuine and effective".

 

The question is whether it is a side effect or the actual training.

We really don't know where they are spiritually.

[Pero]

[Ian]

One final thought, and it's one that troubles me.

 

The ancient Greeks had an amazing system of astronomy. They mapped the stars, planets, etc. and could predict certain celestial events with pinpoint accuracy. And their whole system was premised on the mistaken belief that the sun revolved around the earth. It wasn't until the Rennasaince -- with the advent of more sophisticated scientific tools and mathematics -- that their system of astronomy started to look flawed. Finally Gallileo and others proved their central beliefs were mistaken, even though their skills (mapping stars, predicting things) would yield consistently correct results time after time.

 

Why is this relevant? Consider the ambiguous nature of any spiritual system. Let's say it's indisputable that Wang Li Ping can levitate and move inatimate objects with his will. Let's say he can teach anyone to do that with 10 years of rigorous spiritual training. Wang Li Ping could still be completely mistaken about much of the philisophical rubric he puts around these effects. His "manifestations" might be verifiable and teachable, but his interpretation -- energy body, daoist immortals, whatever -- might be dead wrong, a completely flawed explanation about what's happening. Just like the ancient Greeks.

 

OK, that's enough. I'm done for the day. Go Bears!

 

Interesting point. While I was in Malaysia recently I asked my teacher about Wang Liping and his apparent powers.

 

He said 1) that he had heard the name, but little else, that this one not one of those people who advertised themselves (=guarded approval) 2) that powers such as walking through walls are indeed possible, are not the most usual "siddhis" associated with advanced emptiness, and, crucially, can be achieved by rigorous practice of side disciplines not directly concerned with emptiness. (he's into emptiness, as you might gather, but describes it as, well, much less empty than you might think)

 

And that was it. More than one usually gets out of him on that sort of topic.

 

Hope is of interest.

[HouTian]

Greetings,

 

The Teacher performing the "So Called" Telekinesis is another Fraud Teacher of David Verdesi ? Is this eally Davids Master Sean as You have claimed so many times ?

 

Why on earth would a Real Immortal or Teacher resort to such cheap Parlour Tricks & Hidden Equipment. Just recently I read on this forum About Davids other teacher Jiang being caught out using Electrical & Mechanical Devices in place of Real Chi.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Similar to MAX Lama thunderbolt can only do his chi powers on his students?

[Mal]

Similar to MAX Lama thunderbolt can only do his chi powers on his students?

 

Not really, I think Max way saying he could only help people who were open minded.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Mal,

 

Define HELP as he in his clip is making people fly through the air without touch 20-30 meters away?

 

Yes, when it comes to healing open minded is very important but when they cannot do it on others like he does oon his clip then the questions are raised. This is why i want to go to his seminar see if he can do what he can do to others on me. That wouldnt be disrespectful to ask as his claims are very big, enlightenment, bliss , 100yrs in 1 hr, he is a buddhisattva etc. So i guess he can prove it to me with a movement of his hand or mind ill be standing there and if does ill bow down and respect him for what he is!!

 

In private would be better i wouldnt do this infront of his students or disrespect him in any way i just want to be a believer in this stuff and so far i havent witnessed such feats.

 

WYG

[Guest winpro07]

[MatthewQi]

[Mal]

Define HELP

http://www.kunlunbliss.com/video.html

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Mal,

 

Not good enough to much chit chat and he is talking common knowledge with any research and you can talk as good as Max!

 

Has anyone yet attained Levitation from Kunlun level 1?

[Mal]

Not good enough to much chit chat and he is talking common knowledge with any research and you can talk as good as Max!

 

I quite liked it, not so much what was said but the empathy within the words. Made me feel good.

 

First time I had actually looked at any video's of Max. Have not seen the empty force one. Things like that and levitation do not interest me.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Yes. It seemed like a decent seminar he can talk and explain his knowledge so lay people can get a glimps into his teachings. I am interested in feeling his energy and seeing what he can do as most of his information you can find online if you do your check.

 

Phurba practice

 

Chod practice

 

Vajdra practise and Thunder practise all found online mostly visualization, mantra, mudra, tantra practice, Tummo.

 

What he is saying is found in most books, so im after seeing and feeling him do his energy that he says he can do as well to his students.

[Guest winpro07]

chaLucki='Wun Yuen Gong' date='Dec 14 2007, 11:49 PM' post='45953']

Yes. It seemed like a decent seminar he can talk and explain his knowledge so lay people can get a glimps into his teachings. I am interested in feeling his energy and seeing what he can do as most of his information you can find online if you do your check.

 

Phurba practice

 

Chod practice

 

Vajdra practise and Thunder practise all found online mostly visualization, mantra, mudra, tantra practice, Tummo.

 

What he is saying is found in most books, so im after seeing and feeling him do his energy that he says he can do as well to his students.

Edited December 16, 2007 by winpro07

[h.uriahr]

Edited September 21, 2008 by h.uriahr

[mwight]

Randi's challenge is a scam from the get-go. It offers 1 million to anyone who can prove supernatural or occult abilities. Even J.C.'s abilities ARE NOT supernatural. There is no such thing as super nature, it implies more than what is natural. The word is empty and meaningless.

 

There can be nothing more than or above what is apart of nature. Does that make sense?

 

Lets say we experience a new phenomenon, one we've never seen before, until we understand it, it's supernatural, but after we observe and study it, and completely understand and grok it, it is no longer supernatural. So what changed, its supernatural status or our understanding of it? Was it ever truly supernatural, or was it just our ignorance of it.

 

 

It's kind of like Randi's counterpart Kent Hovind who offers a prize for proof of evolution, he wants proof not only of biological evolution but of planetary and galactic evolution, something no one could provide.

 

It's rigged from the get-go.

[king]

On 2/4/2007 at 12:51 AM, thelerner said:

In the book 'What Really Matters' the writer talks about a Yoga master who could move a compass needle under highly controlled circumstances.

Hey thelerner

Could you give more info on the book as I couldn't find it just by its name?

The story the book is mentioning sounds awfully similar to one that I know of and I'm curious if it's about the same yogi or not.

[thelerner]

@king

13 years ago I read it and liked it.  I assume it's got the story about the Yoga master who moved a compass needle after a lightning fast recitation of 1,000s of mantras.. but can't be sure. It had interesting stories on masters of biofeedback, sports, meditation.. Don't think I own it anymore.  

 

Full title- What Really Matters: Searching for Wisdom in America Paperback by Tony Schwartz  (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/What-Really-Matters-Searching-America/dp/0553374923/ref=sr_1_2?crid=10R6GOP1CFVA5&dchild=1&keywords=what+really+matters+book&qid=1612304135&sprefix=what+really+matters+%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-2

 

On Amazon, you can 'open; the book.  It has an unusually generous amount of pages you can access.  Including a dozen or so pages on indexing.  You might find the guy mentioned in one of the back indexes or extensive notes.

 

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, king said:

Hey thelerner

Could you give more info on the book as I couldn't find it just by its name?

The story the book is mentioning sounds awfully similar to one that I know of and I'm curious if it's about the same yogi or not.

There is a book titled "Beyond Biofeedback" by Elmer and Alyce Green, who were the founders and scientists at the Menninger Institute. They did some pioneering work in biofeedback in the 1960s and one of their main subjects was Swami Rama (who later set up the Himalayan Institute). Swami Rama showed in laboratory settings, various things ranging from internal control -- controlling the so-called involuntary functions such as stopping the heart for minutes at a time to making tumors appear and disappear on his body. 

 

He also made a needle rotate on a compass from several feet away, with the needle in a completely isolated environment (air-tight, etc). 

 

Read the book, it's available in its entirety in pdf format -- it has some really amazing stuff in it. 

 

https://elmergreenfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Beyond-Biofeedback-Green-Green-Searchable.pdf

 

[king]

On 2/3/2021 at 6:46 AM, dwai said:

There is a book titled "Beyond Biofeedback" by Elmer and Alyce Green, who were the founders and scientists at the Menninger Institute. They did some pioneering work in biofeedback in the 1960s and one of their main subjects was Swami Rama (who later set up the Himalayan Institute). Swami Rama showed in laboratory settings, various things ranging from internal control -- controlling the so-called involuntary functions such as stopping the heart for minutes at a time to making tumors appear and disappear on his body. 

 

He also made a needle rotate on a compass from several feet away, with the needle in a completely isolated environment (air-tight, etc). 

 

Read the book, it's available in its entirety in pdf format -- it has some really amazing stuff in it. 

 

https://elmergreenfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Beyond-Biofeedback-Green-Green-Searchable.pdf

 

So it is indeed Swami Rama as I though then. Thank you for the sources!

[thelerner]

It's a real shame that Biofeedback never got the attention it deserved.  Using tech to develop better mind/body control.  Though I guess the whole body hacking movement is into it heavily.  Or at least measuring  body changes as they try various protocols.  Still, wish it was much more mainstream.   

 

Take meditation, with the Oura sleep ring, I can set a meditation time and it tracks my heart rate, heart rate variability and skin temperature.  It's useful to see how fast and deep I go.  

 

Back to the OP, From Anne Wise's book Higher Performance Mind, she hooked advanced practitioners to EKGs.  She found unlike normal people, many of them had simultaneous brain waves going on at the same time.  

Edited February 7, 2021 by thelerner

[dwai]

Found this article about a protocol (purportedly) developed by the CIA to transcend space-time. 

 

https://www.vice.com/en/article/7k9qag/how-to-escape-the-confines-of-time-and-space-according-to-the-cia

 

I know about Project Stargate and the CIA/US Military's investment into, and research about remote viewing, etc -- at one point I was quite interested in the subject (as a curiosity mainly).