Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics

[Mal]

Anyone else reading Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics ??

http://www.amazon.com/Juice-Radical-Energetics-Scott-Meredith/dp/1478260696/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353868796&sr=1-1&keywords=juice%2C+taiji

(couldn't seem to move these quotes from Resources into this thread correctly)

I am finding this book to be very usefull and wonderful for tai chi practice.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/54-resources-books-links-articles-movies-etc/?p=376170

thank you very much for this recommendation! Meredith's descriptions of energetic development in Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics, are the first I've read that actually describe what has been happening in my practice over the last few years! This book is a huge help in watching and moving the energy, finally offering a(n unusual!) framework that fits the way my practice has already been developing. I'm psyched! Anybody else fascinated with Chuang Tzu's statement that "The Ancient Ones breathed from their heels", check this one out.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/54-resources-books-links-articles-movies-etc/?p=387195

I'm specifically interested in what was added/changed in your own practice as a result of this book, and what effects you have experienced from those changes.

[Dainin]

I haven't read his book yet, but I do read his blog from time to time:

 

TABBY CAT Gamespace

 

 

An interesting guy. He practices Ashtanga yoga and Russian Systema in addition to Tai Chi. I plan to get the book soon.

[cheya]

Hi Mal,

Are you asking how it changed a tai chi practice, or energy practice in general? (I don't do tai chi.) Tumoessence was the one who first recommended the book on the basis of its effect on his tai chi practice. He doesn't seem to be online often... you might pm him to see if he'll chime back in on this...

 

 

[tumoessence]

The book is entertaining and informative. As he says having a good taiji form is required to practice as the book outlines. It is accelerating the energetic development of an, ming and hua jin. It realigns taiji energetic potential from one of pure body mechanics and structural alignments to qi dynamics yet in a sober way. It does not support the idea that we can push people around using just qi. Most striking, to use the vernacular, is the degree and intensity the author describes the feeling of deep well being and ecstasy that proper taiji practice produces. This deep moving jin does develop push hand skill, but the energy according to the author helps locate deep seated tension in the body of the partner which is then exploited through a skilfully applied push. In higher level it is that their deep seated tension reacts to the highly developed jin, and they end up throwing themselves off balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUZbILRn0Z8

Edited January 27, 2013 by tumoessence

[tumoessence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttVD-sgPMF0

 

He is a boxer as well.

Edited January 27, 2013 by tumoessence

[cheya]

Meridith says you will have to practice a type of tai chi (series of linked postures) to get much from his book, and not every tai chi practice will work with his system. While he recommends Zheng Manqing's 37 move sequence, he says any tai chi style will work, as long as it emphasizes relaxation and not tension. He aims to help us rid ourselves of the "deep pervasive tension" that we all harbor, the tension that also gives a purchase for the energy trigger Tumoessence refers to in his post above.

 

I may have to take up tai chi! (Although it does seem to be working with tai chi ruler.)

[Mal]

The book is entertaining and informative. As he says having a good taiji form is required to practice as the book outlines.

Thanks for the replies, the key for me is what's required to practice what the book outlines. A Tai chi form, check. An energetics practice, check.

 

But are there additional practices and time required ?

Or is it more of a refocus on what you are already doing with your existing form practice?

 

The last real instruction Sifu gave the three of us before he left town regarding tai chi was "Feel the chi" I'd be reluctant to deviate much from what he taught, but then I'm also looking for more instruction and not having any success locally.

 

His blog looks good basically if you think his book improved you... that's probably all I can hope for :-)

[cheya]

Meredith gives a 7 step practice which involves doing a section of your regular tai chi while mentally tracking specific segments of energy movement. You repeat a section of your practice 7 times, 10 minutes or so for a single rep. So it's taking significant time to do the practice, but you're doing your own form (so long as your form fosters relaxation and does not foster tension.) This 7 step practice is a small part of the material in the book.

 

I'm not doing the 7 stage yet, but the book is very helpful to me beyond the specific practice he mentions. It is more about ways of paying attention to the energy, and what to look for, a different set of points to focus on (niwan, lingtai, dailing), and cultivating the energy paths, than it is on any new physical forms. "Real taiji is about energy cultivation and deployment." He says it's about learning to feel and focus within yourself. "..the mechanism of true Taiji... functions to get your mind fully and pervasively interpenetrating your body exclusive of any blocking physical tension or muscularity so that spirit energy is connected seamlessly from feet to hands." We could say he trains you to feel the energy states and surges within your tai ji practice with the goal of energy deployment in pushhands and beyond. Sort of.

 

I'll probably never be able to manage the push hands part of his training, due to the state of my knees, but the book is fascinating none the less, largely because he describes and pursues the energetic experience in words that seamlessly meld with what I have already discovered by myself in my energy practices, far more so than I have found in any other source. Your milage may vary.

[Mal]

Many thanks Cheya, that sort of practice is definitely something I don't mind spending time doing. I also had a talk to Scott via email and have brought the book (kindle) As soon as I read ARC ... yeah that's describing what I feel (both in Tai Chi and KAP) I think this book will help me .... lets say "level up"

re: Knees, I've taught people with bad knees, and for a while I couldn't even stand on one leg You could certainly do push hands with a high stance, but it's trickier to learn it that way as there isn't much range for movement (if that makes sense), The usual depth of stance with fixed step push hands will probably cause too much tension, if getting that deep causes pain I think it would be counterproductive.

[mYTHmAKER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttVD-sgPMF0

 

He is a boxer as well.

Not impressed he is too tense and uses too much force for my taste. The big guys posture is so bad he is a pushover.

I'm no great shakes but i have easily pushed guys his size and 30 years younger.

They had such poor posture and body alignment - like taking candy from baby.

Doesn't make me any good.

[Mal]

IIRC he was trying to show that it's not like a "push" by using someone bigger/heavier than he could push. But I'm not much for videos, I really need to touch

 

(and yes some people feel so disconnected and unbalanced they basically fall over by themselves - and I'm definitely nothing special either)

[mYTHmAKER]

Not impressed he is too tense and uses too much force for my taste. The big guys posture is so bad he is a pushover.

I'm no great shakes but i have easily pushed guys his size and 30 years younger.

They had such poor posture and body alignment - like taking candy from baby.

Doesn't make me any good.

 

I understand what he was trying to show. Better if he was able to do so without shoving.

i was interested in the book until i saw the videos/

Thank you Tumoessence

[PLB]

I have read the book and am experimenting with his method of intention/attention (his version of the macrocosmic orbit, if you will). What he says about the niwan as the intersection of the third eye and the zhong ding has been helpful to me (Meredith cites this element as a teaching from Cheng Man-Ching). His discussion of "suspending" the crown reminds me of discussions about that in the last few months here.

His references to Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan by Fu Zhongwen encouraged me to look at that book more closely. So, I am glad I read Meredith's book.

 

On the other hand, the book is annoying when approaching the question of how much emphasis on "form" is necessary. Perhaps this is only my personal problem but without the form and the alignments I constantly seek to refine and multiply, I would be totally screwed when it comes to learning the art. I want to feel the "juice" Meredith speaks of more deeply than I do now but it ain't going to happen without groping further down the path I am already following. And to that end, the lessons I get from my teachers about rooting and separting jings is more subtle and to the point than what Meredith advises.

[Mal]

Do you have the other one Swaim translated? - from 2008

 

 

The 2 that I constantly read are:-

Yang Chengfu “The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan”

Fu Zhongwen “Mastering yang style Taijiquan”

Both trans. Louis Swaim. If you do Yang style, buy these book, they are indispensable. This is the form that my Sifu taught me, except for a slight difference in sweep lotus with leg.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/4571-what-is-your-favorite-taijiquan-book/?p=49308

 

I think it's important to have a teacher to learn Tai Chi, while I really like where Meredith is going in his book, I wouldn't need to read it if my teacher was still in town and back in '08 I'm not sure how receptive I would have been (right message at the right time etc)

[PLB]

Mal,

I appreciate what I do learn from my teacher even if I cast about for more information than he provides by himself. It would be great to spend more time with people I have encountered who could surely help me find things more quickly. But I balance my practice with a demanding work life so I won't be rearranging my life to gain access to them. That choice makes me more determined to keep doing it as much as I can and less concerned about progressing quickly. Without the practice, everything else is just thoughts bouncing against other thoughts in an imagined space that I have not been invited to.

 

So, in matters like Meredith's book, I look at it as a clue to be worked more than as a thesis to be proven or disproven. I have only been doing the form for three years so I am a newbie. I would like to hear what people who are far more advanced than I am think of his book. Not because their view would tell me whether to bother with it or not but to get further clues about what there is to be done and experienced. What one person finds useless sometimes helps another.

 

As for Yang Chengfu's book, I don't think it is as big as what he transmitted. I read it with interest and the pictures of the complete postures are achingly beautiful. But one very interesting element to Fu Zhongwen's book is that he was trying to address what was missing in that book. And I guess another new book will need to address what is missing from Fu Zhongwen's book.....

 

The form I practice is from the Dong tradition so there are differences from what Fu Zhongwen specifies. Close but interestingly different. A cousin thing.

[Mal]

As for Yang Chengfu's book, I don't think it is as big as what he transmitted. I read it with interest and the pictures of the complete postures are achingly beautiful. But one very interesting element to Fu Zhongwen's book is that he was trying to address what was missing in that book.

 

Yes, that is why I like to use them together

 

I feel there are a lot of great clues in Scott's book. While he said himself everything is already mentioned in the tai chi classics, I’m enjoying practicing using his suggestions. If you are looking for more internal/energy instruction, or even just a new perspective on form and push hand practice, dismissing this book because of a youtube video is a mistake IMHO

[mYTHmAKER]

dismissing this book because of a youtube video is a mistake IMHO

The video showed me he really doesn't have an deep understanding in his body.

He may, however, know it in his mind.

i understand your situation - for a long time i had no teacher and searched for information all over the place.

I did gain some insights. However, now that i have a knowledgeable teacher i no longer feel the need.If on the other hand he wowed me in the video i would buy the book.

One thing i have learned is if you keep practicing with the right idea - what your teacher told you - you improve. learn

and discover even when your teacher has left town. If you can find some one to each to will learn by leaps and bounds.

[Mal]

No worries mYTHmAKER I just though I'd put it out there.

 

Remember my old avatar (with it’s really crap single whip ) I like it because I’m happy in that photo and while I might cringe now and then looking myself it also reminds me… of a time when I learnt that Lou Reid also did Tai Chi! I was very excited as I love his music and eagerly flipped to the article … and I really can’t remember anything that he said as I was too occupied analysing his poor form, shown in a photo, and busy being disappointed that he wasn’t “good like his music”

 

 

And thanks for the encouragement too, the outlook can seem rather "dark" by myself (and like PLB mentioned “rearranging my life to gain access” isn’t a priority) I've stoped teaching Tai Chi and was even considering stoping practicing, I was really just "going through the motions." Juice has inspired me to keep going and given me new things to try that are basically re-wordings of what my sifu would say.

[tumoessence]

http://cattanga.typepad.com/tabby_cat_gamespace/

 

Check out the latest posts in Meredith's blog. The latest on a form of Nei Gong sought after by many. 1/29's a response to this thread that someone directed him to.

[cheya]

For those of you who bought the book, Meredith is writing a sequel, and inviting "substantive" questions. I definitely got questions!

 

He writes on his blog: "So I'm now deep into the sequel: JUICE CONCENTRATE: More Radical Energetics. It will continue the treatment of Taiji (advanced topics) and get into other related stuff as well. If any of you blog readers who actually ponied out for the book have interesting substantive questions you'd like to hear my crazy take on, send those on in and if they're a fit they'll maybe appear (unattributed though). Email me seeotter g mail dot com."

 

He just sold the Japanese translation of Juice to a Japanesse publishing house! Check out his June 20th blog post for a fun story about a Juice "demo" in Tokyo:

http://cattanga.typepad.com/tabby_cat_gamespace/2013/06/index.html

Edited July 22, 2013 by cheya

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I observe little internal skill.. the videos illustrate a fair level of physical awareness..the teacher in the video, consistently loses connection/root with the issued 'force'..

 

I was just at Nick Scrima's 15th annual ICMAC tournament in Orlando as a judge in Fixed Step PH and Moving PH, and.. of the approximately forty competitors in the ring i was assigned to, maybe three had well-developed 'internal skill'.. there was a match between a +/- 120 lb man vs a +/- 240 lb man, in the moving division, and the lighter man prevailed under overwhelming physical presence.. yes, it was a physical struggle, but without internal skill, too, the raw physics greatly favored the heavier competitor, everyone was appropriately impressed....

 

In other matches, i was pleased to see some well developed 'sung' skills, but.. over-all, the general direction is moving toward physical force rather than a balanced mix of internal/external..

 

Be well..

[cheya]

Hi TzuJanLi,

Interesting comments, especially as seen from the perspective of a professional judge!

 

Meredith has quoted part of your post and responds (somewhat) on his blog:

http://cattanga.typepad.com/tabby_cat_gamespace/2013/08/index.html

 

I don't practice tai chi or push hands (knee challenges), but am very interested in the energy Meredith claims to be using. Since you have a professional eye and have seen the videos, I'm eager to hear your opinion on his claims and methods, especially if you have read the book, or at least know what he says about what he does.

 

Even if you haven't read the book, what do you think of his claim? He says he's using a very light touch to trigger his opponent's deep tension in a way that causes the OPPONENT to basically spring away from him. He says the response depends on how much deep tension the opponent harbors, and how much taiji energy he (Meredith) uses. He doesn't want anybody to get hurt, so he holds on to the opponent to keep him from flying off.

 

Meredith is not interested in strict form, and I understand him to be saying that tai chi is a tool for connection to your own internal energy, and that the prime directive in finding it is relaxation as you move. So he does claim to be very relaxed, at least in terms of his own "deep tension." From my bodyworker perspective, his posture is rather hunched, which looks like deep tension to me. But, non-taichi person that I am, none of these factors preclude his actually doing what he says. So I am interested in what you see. Can you say a little about what you are looking at/for when evaluating internal skill? Can it look like little internal skill from the outside and still be powerful from the opponent's experience?

 

Sure wish someone would jump in here who has actually pushed with Meredith so we could hear what it feels like....

 

PS Please, anyone, if I am mischaracterizing what Meredith says/claims, please jump in and set me straight!

[ChiDragon]

Even if you haven't read the book, what do you think of his claim?

He says he's using a very light touch to trigger his opponent's deep tension in a way that causes the OPPONENT to basically spring away from him. He says the response depends on how much deep tension the opponent harbors, and how much taiji energy he (Meredith) uses. He doesn't want anybody to get hurt, so he holds on to the opponent to keep him from flying off.

 

Meredith is not interested in strict form, and I understand him to be saying that tai chi is a tool for connection to your own internal energy, and that the prime directive in finding it is relaxation as you move. So he does claim to be very relaxed, at least in terms of his own "deep tension." From my bodyworker perspective, his posture is rather hunched, which looks like deep tension to me. But, non-taichi person that I am, none of these factors preclude his actually doing what he says. So I am interested in what you see. Can you say a little about what you are looking at/for when evaluating internal skill? Can it look like little internal skill from the outside and still be powerful from the opponent's experience?

 

Sure wish someone would jump in here who has actually pushed with Meredith so we could hear what it feels like....

 

PS Please, anyone, if I am mischaracterizing what Meredith says/claims, please jump in and set me straight!

 

I am not claiming I am an expert but I can only tell you what I think I know from my empirical experience.

 

The practice Tai Ji helps the body to develop an internal strength. This internal strength is very immense which is called "Jin" in Tai Ji. In regards to the "light touch", it was no light touch. Basically, to hold the opponent in place, his resisting force that was required is equal to the weight + the pushing force of the opponent. In order to pushing the opponent to fly away, then an additional force would be much greater is needed. That being said, the body cannot be relaxed as someone claims.

 

From your personal experience as a body worker, you have notice that "his posture is rather hunched". I gathered that was due to his physical condition rather than by choice. Otherwise, he would have much greater pushing strength. Despite to his physical condition, it seems to me that he did put in a lot of effort in developing his Jin by practicing Tai Ji. He could have a better balance of himself without leaning forward and lifting or moving his foot if he does not have the hunched condition. It is very important to keep the waist straight with the vertical, in martial arts, for balance. However, I think he is doing great for what he is capable of despite to his physical condition.

 

You might be interested in this:

Tai Ji Chuan & Chi Kung

Edited September 23, 2013 by ChiDragon

[cheya]

Hey CD,

I think you're missing the jist of the question here, and I KNOW you're underestimating Meredith! He replies to your post on his blog here:

http://cattanga.typepad.com/tabby_cat_gamespace/2013/09/index.html

Lots of interesting vids to check out... May open your perspective a bit!

 

Come on, CD, Jump IN! This chi stuff is FUN!

[dwai]

I got the book just to see what he has to say. It's interesting that a lot of what he says is precisely how we are taught in Temple Style tai chi. However, where he differs is in how we generate and store Jin. We generate and store jin in the bone marrows naturally as practice matures, but also via a process called condensing breathing.

His description of deep tension and it's wild emotion/reactionary triggered responses are evident during tui shou.

 

 

However, I don't like his acronyms/abbreviations and changing the traditional terminology. It took a lot away from the book (because now, not only do I have to constantly keep track of what those abbreviations mean, but also map them to what I have internalized wrt traditional taiji syntax). That is from a reading/understanding perspective.