Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics

[Green Tiger]

Scott has some new material coming out on Xing Yi Quan. Looks pretty good so far.

 

[cheya]

Folks who liked Scott's books Juice and Peng: Root Power Rising (and his latest, Radical Xingyi Energetics), may appreciate his Sept 12th post "Hard vs Soft Waves."

 

"Some readers of my Tai Chi books, Juice and Peng, have written to say they've been feeling stuff but are still a little confused as to the essential difference between what I call the "hard wave" and the "soft wave"....."

 

This is a longish post, and he goes on to clarify 5 major dimensions along which he distinguishes the two phenomena. I found it very helpful.

 

His new double pole work is pretty cool too. It's up on youtube if you want to check it out.

 

http://cattanga.typepad.com/

[cheya]

Scott's doing a two-day workshop in Santa Rosa, June 20th weekend, and some posters on this thread might be interested. 

 

Tumoessense started a thread on it in upcoming events:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38571-scott-meredith-tai-chi-workshop-in-santa-rosa-ca-june/?p=629658

[SriChi]

I was trying to find more info on Dan Harden and just spent an hour munching popcorn on a aikiweb thread (drama ).

 

His seminars are located near my location, so I was hoping to get more of an understanding about him.

[GreytoWhite]

Yeah I don't think you'll get much understanding about Dan Harden via reading. Simply enough, when someone has incredible skill but is not well known then people will attack when they don't know their own inadequacy. Enough people have been humbled by the man to study with him. My teacher is somewhat similar having said, "It looks like I'll have to embarrass him as he's getting verbally aggressive."

[cheya]

For those interested in the core concepts of Scott's book Juice, he made a dynamite blog post this morning in response to a readers comment. Here he (again) corrects the notion that the power he's talking about is physical/structural, but actually is just a very small energy that triggers your partner/opponent's explosive reaction.

 

Here's the page. If you're in a hurry, you can scroll down past Scott's initial post and the reader's reply to Scott's first reply to the reader.

 

http://cattanga.typepad.com/tabby_cat_gamespace/2015/06/its-interesting-that-if-you-casually-inspect-virtually-any-popular-qi-gong-program-what-youll-see-is-basically-wall-to-wall.html#comments

 

Short excerpt:

"But what I'm talking about is something completely different. I realize it's very hard to understand (especially since, though I can demo it, I cannot demo it at the level of Yang Luchan or Prof Zheng)

To understand my stuff you MUST grok on thing: in real tai chi push, the power that moves the guy IS HIS OWN TENSION. NOTHING FROM YOU beyond the extremely weak trigger energy. Just as a bullet is NOT physically propelled by the primer charge - it is propelled by the actual gunpowder load in the shell. The primer is merely the TRIGGER FORCE nothing more."

Edited June 12, 2015 by cheya

[SriChi]

Yeah I don't think you'll get much understanding about Dan Harden via reading. Simply enough, when someone has incredible skill but is not well known then people will attack when they don't know their own inadequacy. Enough people have been humbled by the man to study with him. My teacher is somewhat similar having said, "It looks like I'll have to embarrass him as he's getting verbally aggressive."

 

Cool, I'll be attending one soon. Will let you guys know how it was. I'm very much a beginner. 

[cheya]

In Juice, Scott frequently emphasizes the critical importance of niwan (the point in the middle of the brain) as the fundamental key to internal energy work. He advises us to touch in to niwan before any practice, just to warm it up, but not to dwell there or over-focus, not to give ourselves a headache.

 

I tried this a few times early on, didn't feel much, and went on, looking for more palpable stuff. Recently however, for maybe 2 weeks, I tried this brief wake-up focus on niwan every night before practice. It maybe calmed and focused me for the practice, but didn't feel anything energetic from doing this, which to me means I wasn't actually *doing* it, just thinking it.

 

And then, on a whim, I decided to rotate my sensating attention in my mid brain area (the Robert Bruce thing that turned on my acupoint work).... which I hadn't really tried in the brain, because everybody knows we can't actually feel the brain, right? May we can't feel the brain, but SOMETHING activated and started slowly spreading energy down my body, kind of same way feet send it up.

 

Even after this discovery, I couldn't feel the energy by just perching there for a moment, as Scott had suggested, but had to rotate awareness, sometimes in different planes, to wake it up. So, somewhat contrary to what Scott advised, I started my own little niwan practice prior to my evening sessions.

 

Scott said, yes, this is niwan, and now I was to to feel that the Niwan does not exist in isolation, and to integrate that awareness into the circuit/loop of the energy work. I have only really managed the loop Scott describes once, where you project from niwan to the entire forehead area, and then direct the energy down the throat to the armpits and then out the arms.

 

But aside from not yet being able to do exactly what Scott suggests, other wonderful niwany things are happening! At first that gentle energy permeation was all I felt. I was also expecting some kind of cosmic energy infusion, and didn't feel that at all at first. But now, as I keep working with it, that is starting to happen.

 

Taoist theory (JAJ anyway) names NINE energy centers in the head, niwan being but one. The energies that manifest feel different, and indeed, different parts of my brain seem to be activated. I still try every evening, standing santishi, to run the loop that Scott describes, with varying success. I can get the energy moving, but it usually does its own (cool) thing, not the recommended loop. 

 

I haven't opened a "finding niwan" thread as I'm fairly sure that's not a healthy practice to jump into... But having stumbled upon it within this context, I'm wondering if others are successful with the loop Scott describes, if anyone has suggestions to develop that loop (what worked for them)... and what ELSE might be happening by attempting to develop the niwan energetic he describes.

[tumoessence]

Cheya,

After touching in with Niwan do you go down to the LDT then feet,back to LDT, up the back, then back to Niwan before going to the hands the first time?  Maybe spend more time on LDT on each leg of the round trip before going up to Niwan and hands.  Do you do standing Peng practice?  That's a kicker and also the new Taichi/ ai ki practice as shown in his video.  

I find that my Niwan sensitivity really likes the slower surging pulse feeling and at some point takes on a slow blissful pulsing radiation on its own. I think lava lamp when I get the feel of it really well.

I think the nine points aren't so important to focus on.  The Niwan is kind of a master point ruling them all. Just as the pituitary is a master gland balancing and activating the glandular system.   

[cheya]

Hi tumoessence,

 

Lava Lamp! I love it! I've always talked about seaweed —or sometimes squid ink— but lava lamp captures the sense of viscosity and containment in addition to the quality of movement. Bliss moving in a lava lamp! Yes!

 

I have done the preliminary loop before trying to go on to the hands. Or maybe I should say I do it with my mind/thought, but the energy isn't palpable, and I know what THAT means. :-) I'm notorious (to myself) for being able to activate and feel the energy, but not being very successful in telling it what to do. It does its own thing. Too many years of passively watching it rather than actively directing it. And I'm real bad for not practicing stuff I can't feel. Scott's emphasis on directing the energy is helping me focus on this gap.

 

The energy generated at niwan does go to the hands and feet, often really strongly to LDT, occasionally up the back, but mostly not by direction, just as it pleases, and somewhat randomly. Yesterday I decided to "RobertBruce" my forehead, and see if paying attention in that way can open it up— or maybe "make it palpable"— like it did the niwan. Surface circularity is contrary to Scott's "projection" image, but it did seem promising.

 

I have tried the Peng stances, but old knee injuries complain about any SLO, although the granny version is okay. Santi works, and at least gives me practice in trying to direct the flow. Actually, I can almost always get it strongly to my hands, just can't track a path there. It just goes. It might be an eye thing.

 

I'm not particularly interested in the other 8 compartments, just that the effects of activating whatever I'm activating are so varied that I wonder if most of it is really niwan, or other centers. Whatever it is, bliss is bliss. This is just SO COOL!

[windwalker]

I don't know how to say it any better than I have already in the Push chapter of Juice. Neither Mr. Chuckrow, wonderful man and great teacher that he is, nor any other contemporary Western teacher and damn few Chinese teacher are putting this out there. Why? Because it's too tricking hard to even understand the idea, much less actually DO it.

From scotts blogg.

 

In light of my own teachers work, other teachers I've met and my own work I find this statement odd..

I think it would be more fair to say that their  are few teachers working at this level, not many people have had the opportunity to train either with a teacher directly or one of their students.  

At this point  there are teachers coming out trying to show and explain what and how they feel it works.

The Chinese or traditional teachers tend to be more consistent in this aspect, only now are they starting to open up and share their crafts. Many can be found on the web,  mostly explained in Chinese.

 

I have found its not really something that one can understand there are many ways used to explain it.

It is something through practice one can come to know and get.

 

 

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

 

teacher chuckrow, 

 

Has some good explanation using physics 

Although there are some aspects I feel he does not touch on, his explanations can be applied to most of what is questioned on the net in clips shown.

 

 

 

 

 

8. Spheres Everywhere. I do not know if Prof. Cheng would agree that the center of the sphere can be at a place other than the center of your body. However, I learned from one of my teachers, Sam Chin Fan-siong, that the center of the spherical surface at the point of contact with the opponent does not even have to be within your body—it can be anywhere as long as (a) your body is inside the extension of the spherical surface at the contact point and ( the force you exert is perpendicularly outward from that surface. 

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

Edited June 18, 2015 by morninglight

[cheya]

@tumoessence, re Lavalamp

I've never considered changing my DB screen name, but LavaLamp has just grabbed me!

Maybe I'll just add it to my sig for awhile and see if the urge passes. 

 

@morninglight

Curious... have you read Juice or other Scott books and/or checked out his youtube vids, or are you mostly responding to that one blog post?

Edited June 22, 2015 by cheya

[windwalker]

I've read some of his books,  and have seen some his utube clips. dont really agree with some of what is written. I wont comment on the clips.  He does do  good work and translates many things that would normally not be accessible to non Chinese readers.

 

Just find it strange for people to make comments, with out showing the skill sets they either write about or speak of. 

while the skill level is rare even in China, there are teachers out there who are coming out explaining it and demoing their work.

For those looking for this type of work in this day and age it should be no problem in finding someone or watching the many clips shown. 

 

Just got back from meeting  this teacher in Taiwan.

 

Edited June 19, 2015 by morninglight

[Green Tiger]

Mr. Chuckrow's article is an interesting read, but I don't think it is going to help me improve my push-hands technique.  Just because you understand the vectors and equations doesn't mean you'll be able to feel them. 

 

Scott's content is more focused on getting you to understand the sort of sensations that indicate progress.  It's more visceral than it is intellectual.

 

From scotts blogg.

 

In light of my own teachers work, other teachers I've met and my own work I find this statement odd..

I think it would be more fair to say that their  are few teachers working at this level, not many people have had the opportunity to train either with a teacher directly or one of their students.  

At this point  there are teachers coming out trying to show and explain what and how they feel it works.

The Chinese or traditional teachers tend to be more consistent in this aspect, only now are they starting to open up and share their crafts. Many can be found on the web,  mostly explained in Chinese.

 

I have found its not really something that one can understand there are many ways used to explain it.

It is something through practice one can come to know and get.

 

 

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

 

teacher chuckrow, 

 

Has some good explanation using physics 

Although there are some aspects I feel he does not touch on, his explanations can be applied to most of what is questioned on the net in clips shown.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

[windwalker]

Mr. Chuckrow's article is an interesting read, but I don't think it is going to help me improve my push-hands technique.  Just because you understand the vectors and equations doesn't mean you'll be able to feel them. 

 

Scott's content is more focused on getting you to understand the sort of sensations that indicate progress.  It's more visceral than it is intellectual.

 

No book will help one improve their "push hands technique"  It might help to understand that there is no technique to begin with.

 

Not here to debate the merits of Scott writings vs Mr Chuckorw's,

 

All I mentioned was that there are other teachers out there that are teaching these types of skill sets.  I count myself as one. They are not hard to find if one looks. 

 

The practice itself is not meant to be easy to "get"  In fact I would say with out hands on feeling it would be almost impossible.  Few find it, fewer achieve it,  many talk about it. 

 

Oddly enough many Traditional Chinese teachers in China try to explain  their work using a more western physics based approach. 

 

There are things as I mentioned that this approach doenst touch on, as what I noted in  Mr Chuckorws' writings. Having said this,  his writings do reflect what many older masters have tried to say in explaining their craft.

Edited June 20, 2015 by morninglight

[SriChi]

OK, just back from Dan Harden's seminar.

 

First, you must understand that I have zero martial arts experience.

 

So, Dan is working with internal power. This is not Qi that he is talking about. At least not in the ways Qigong refers to Qi.

 

It is purely myofascial meridians (Anatomy Trains, he recommends as a good reference), and using the model of the Heaven-Earth-Man (or more accurately Heaven-Man-Earth).

 

So, the art is about practicing control over these fascia to achieve internal balance. Everything is spirals and circles.

 

It is a subtle art, so reading or even watching videos won't help. Dan invites all of us to feel the power generated, and how he is moving the fascia internally.

 

He is a very down-to-earth, very approachable guy. 

 

And, from the various disciplines that I saw at the seminar (Aikido, Karate, Yang Tai Chi, I-Liq-Chuan), what he has got is legit. Dan himself comes from a Judo/MMA background.

 

You can check the testimonials page - http://www.bodyworkseminars.org/testimonials.html  -  to maybe get a better idea of what he does. They all generally say that Dan's wok improves their individual martial arts. And, I can see how. Dan says his system is plug-n-play, because this system is not anything new, and he doesn't own it. It is just the way your body works.

 

Overall, this is something I would absolutely pursue if I want to have solid internal power for martial applications. 

 

My interests lie more in body integrity and healing.

 

Cheya, since you are a bodyworker, would you say Anatomy Trains is a good back to have for someone who is not a massage therapist, but just looking to achieve better body integrity. 

[cheya]

Hi SriChi,

I'll have to have another look at Anatomy Trains to try to answer your question,

 but in the meantime, can I suggest you start a new thread, specifically focused on Dan Harden, to flesh out his approach, and where folks will come specifically for that topic, and not hide it back here in the Juice thread.  :-)

 

Since I am a bodyworker, hard to say what a non-bodyworker would find most helpful here...