WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

[Vmarco]

Pyrrhonists believe that true wisdom and happiness lie in the suspension of judgement, since absolute knowledge is impossible to gain. Truth is subjective, and that's the truth.

 

Yes,...absolute knowledge is an impossibility,....because knowledge arises from the 6 senses, and the senses are always liars.

 

Those who seek wisdom will never uncover the realization of awareness,...because wisdom literary means: knowledge accumulated through philosophic, scientific learning. Thus, there is NO PLACE in prajnaparamita practice for wisdom.

[Vmarco]

The Truth that can be told is not the eternal Truth

 

(FFS!!!! - I thought that you were all Taoists here!!! )

 

Well then,...I suppose neither Lao Tzu nor Buddha ever uttered a truth.

[Vmarco]

That's easy. The reason that the Truth cannot be told (spoken of) is that there are none (Absolute Truth). Buddhists handle this rather well with their concept of impermanence (as I understand it).

 

Yes,...the relative is impermanent, and contains no absolute truth,...however, what of the absolute? For Buddhists interested in such a dialogue, try the Mountain Doctrine.

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Doctrine-Fundamental-Treatise-Other-Emptiness/dp/155939238X

[gatito]

 

Are we going to kick-off again?

 

Because if we are, it's my turn to be in charge.

 

Last time you nearly brought a horde of Buddhists and Taoists into our secret fortress!!!

[gatito]

Too late

 

Vmarco's arrived - we're f***ed!!!

 

Retreat!!!!

[gatito]

Well then,...I suppose neither Lao Tzu nor Buddha ever uttered a truth.

 

Interesting conclusion

[eye_of_the_storm]

I agree with V

Edited January 28, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sure,...but who has been to the Now,...the instant,...to observe the truth? Until one lets go of the attachment to the 6 senses (which can only observe the past), to say the truth is within the Now is merely a belief.

Perhaps the Now is merely a belief, not separated from the past nor future.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Are we going to kick-off again?

 

Because if we are, it's my turn to be in charge.

 

Last time you nearly brought a horde of Buddhists and Taoists into our secret fortress!!!

 

 

 

[gatito]

 

I agree with V

 

 

 

Very wise move!

 

You're in-charge again!

 

So do I

[eye_of_the_storm]

off to dream a dream... that is the truth.

[gatito]

off to dream a dream... that is the truth.

 

Ditto my friend.

 

It's a pity we're on opposite sides of the planet - I'd offer to buy you a beer if we weren't.

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

So, what if someone was just to say, the Tao that can't be told a couple thousand years ago, might actually be able to be told today. I don't think they knew about sub atomic microscopes and DNA back then, so no one even bothered. I could be wrong though, maybe they did know.

 

What if the tao that can't be told was the deafening silent roar of the universe in your ears, when nothing is in your mind, except for the dance of atoms that merge from the inside of your eyelids with the atoms of the walls and everything around you - everything everywhere? Maybe no one would have believed it back then, so they kept it simple and said the Tao that can't be told, or not.

[Sanzon]

You know, there is a good way to side step the whole existential dilemma, it's to accept that we are here now, and ask what do we do next. In my mind, I think existentialism is like a zen koan, great for opening the mind, but not designed to provide answers. You could spend your life asking why am I here, & look to all past civilizations for clues. I find it all incredibly exciting & stimulating, lots of interest & theories come & go but the question never gets definitively answered.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Sanzon

[Sanzon]

The truth on the other hand, as in Tao, Upanishads etc has always been presented as bigger than you can comprehend. Another koan?

 

[SEEKER OF TRUTH]

You know, there is a good way to side step the whole existential dilemma, it's to accept that we are here now, and ask what do we do next. In my mind, I think existentialism is like a zen koan, great for opening the mind, but not designed to provide answers. You could spend your life asking why am I here, & look to all past civilizations for clues. I find it all incredibly exciting & stimulating, lots of interest & theories come & go but the question never gets definitively answered.

Yup.

[Vmarco]

Perhaps the Now is merely a belief, not separated from the past nor future.

 

Yes,...if one hasn't observed the Present, it is just a belief.

 

"Phenomenally, we can know no present, as it must be in the ‘past’ before our senses can complete the process of recording it, leaving only a suppositional past and future; noumenally, there is no question of ‘past’ or ‘future,’ but only a presence that knows neither ‘time’ nor ‘space.’ " Wei Wu Wei

[Vmarco]

off to dream a dream... that is the truth.

 

That is a most interesting subject. Yes, life is a dream,...but, does one dream it? Or are they being drempt? Suppose you dream of someone,...who are they? Are they dreaming a dream? Inside your dream? Is it really true that you're off to dream a dream within a dream.

 

If the 5 skandhas are not real,...and the perception of dreaming arises from the 5 skandhas, ....what is true?

[Vmarco]

So, what if someone was just to say, the Tao that can't be told a couple thousand years ago, might actually be able to be told today. I don't think they knew about sub atomic microscopes and DNA back then, so no one even bothered. I could be wrong though, maybe they did know.

 

What if the tao that can't be told was the deafening silent roar of the universe in your ears, when nothing is in your mind, except for the dance of atoms that merge from the inside of your eyelids with the atoms of the walls and everything around you - everything everywhere? Maybe no one would have believed it back then, so they kept it simple and said the Tao that can't be told, or not.

 

There is supportive evidence for that,...for example, Buddha purportedly said that he discovered something profound and luminous beyond all concepts. He tried to communicate that something with words, but few understood. Yet, when Buddha Maitreya arrives, it is said that tens of thousand will understand.

 

In my opinion, anyone who understands the nature of light, will by consequence, understand the Tao.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/19803-what-is-light/

[eye_of_the_storm]

I think one is... writer, director and actor.

That every being is sovereign

That we choose to have these dreams and interact with other dreamers

The movie... What Dreams May Come... comes to mind.

That liberation is coming to the full understanding that you are an artist of cosmic proportions.

... life is what you make it / (life is what you realize it to be?)

Edited January 28, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

Perhaps the Now is merely a belief, not separated from the past nor future.

Ouch!!! Nice thought.

[Vmarco]

I think one is... writer, director and actor.

 

That every being is sovereign

 

That we choose to have these dreams and interact with other dreamers

 

The movie... What Dreams May Come... comes to mind.

 

That liberation is coming to the full understanding that you are an artist of cosmic proportions.

 

... life is what you make it / (life is what you realize it to be?)

 

I loved that film. Because you mentioned it, the following, which will include a reference to 'What Dreams May Come', shouldn't be seen as truth, but as my own research on the dimensions.

 

Although the nature (and architecture) of reality is not linear, a linear-type model is useful in a word-orientated density as our existence. The nine levels of consciousness can be summarized as the following:

 

The ninth or highest plane is not a density, but a nondensity, a zero-dimension beyond space–time that is synonymous with still, unconditional light. This is as the light bulb within a projector.

 

The eighth and seventh densities are the first pair, or split, out of the ninth, yet are intimately connected with the ninth, just as the three points of an equilateral triangle are intimately connected with each other. The dakini would describe these two densities as the oceans that hold the highest levels of consciousness—the dimensions of Buddha and Vajradhara. The eighth and seventh densities are octaves in which the laws and structure of space–time do not apply as it does it the lower densties. Within these levels dwell our highest selves. There is a direct connection with pure ecstasy, love, and light, yet these densities also comprise the initial levels of energy. Remember, however: undivided light itself is zero energy, and zero space–time.

 

The sixth density is the first level of fully enlightened consciousness. Although the threshold of truth is within the fifth density, the sixth conscious plane is wholly in truth. Falsity cannot penetrate this plane of consciousness. The full, luminous understanding of compassion can be accessed through this vibrational level. No religious person can rise to this level of consciousness.

 

The fifth density occurs between the higher and lower densities of consciousness and appears to be the most populated of all the dimensions. At the upper level of this density, there are no limits to our desires. John Davies said that whatever we wish in the fifth is instantly manifest. The middle of the fifth density is the gateway between arrita (untruth) and satya (truth), at which the beliefs cloaking the heart-mind have dropped away. A conscious connection with the middle fifth plane gives birth to the beginning of true compassion. Everything above this vibrational level of consciousness is true.

 

The 1998 film What Dreams May Come is loosely based on the middle fifth density. On the low end of the fifth plane is the highest level to which beliefs can ascend. This would be the heaven or hell for those who cling to the Abrahamic religions for their identity. The lower fifth density is not only the uppermost level of beliefs, such as the Christianized concept of Christ Consciousness, but also the highest level for the sciential-minded and believers in atheism. Falsity cannot go above this level. In the film What Dreams May Come, Robin Williams ventures to the lower fifth dimension to retrieve his partner, Annabella Sciorra, who is stuck there within a moral delusion. Researcher Robert Monroe has called the lower fifth density religious terminus.

 

In the fourth density, vibration is experienced intuitively, as in the higher frequencies, rather than through mental thought or the sensory languages in the lower frequencies. This intuitive communication can be either positive or negative. Through the higher levels of this density, we can draw on information from our higher selves through intuitive language. The lower ones are denser versions of the lower fifth and thus block higher intuition. Intuitive language is "heard" through the heart or Hridaya experience not fully available to the religious or the sciential-minded.

 

An important thing to note is that occasionally, those who cling to faith-based constructs do have experiences projected from levels above the religious terminus. Afterwards, however, these occurrences get labeled such things as "being born again," for as soon as the experience is over, the people who have had these experiences begin to define their adventure through belief filters, and thus they close off the connection to their higher self and remain in religious terminus. A few so-called channelers appear to have connected with levels above the lower fifth density and retrieved information from higher consciousness, but then typically filter it through faith-based "Jesus" constructs. The product for their listeners is then an unfortunate blend of true and false, which keeps the faith-based continually chained to that which suppresses, denies, disempowers, and disconnects. A rule of thumb is: Anyone who begins to spew theism as something valuable either hasn’t gone beyond the lower level of the fifth density or is distorting reality.

 

The third density is the level of physical consciousness that has become dominated by the sciential-minded. This is a dimension of limitation, suffering, and illusion—what Gurdjieff called a very unfortunate place to be. The third density is more than the tip of the iceberg, yet in this age of ignorance, the construct of object-ive conscious rules. Although the subconscious portion of self overlaps into the four lower densities and easily communicates through images and emotions that can be downloaded into the conscious mind as insights, such as occurs through night dreaming or meditation, this larger part of self is generally viewed as fantasy.

 

The second density includes the consciousness of animals, plants, and even viruses and bacteria, although their consciousness isn’t as sensory or emotional as that of larger animals. The first density includes minerals and basic elements. All have some level of consciousness. Nothing is below these two densities, just as nothing is above the ninth.

[Vmarco]

Ouch!!! Nice thought.

 

Sure,...but what is a thought? Can you ever think in the absolute Now?

 

Would it not be prudent to let go of beliefs about the present, past and future,...and examine what is really going on?

 

The prose of romantic ideas are fun,...and spiritually disempowering.

 

Is there ever a Present, Instant, or Now in time? If not, why pretend otherwise. If there is no Present, Instant, or Now in time,...why say the past and future, which are in time, are also in the Present?

 

Why not be honest? Really honest.

[eye_of_the_storm]

True,

Good fun...

hmm

I really like that movie too...

I believe that people create their own heaven / hell...

that these things... predate any religious institutions and that seekers have stumbled upon these realms... and simply did their best to explain

From memory (it has been some time) the wife... created her own "hell" not because of any religious beliefs... but her own attachment / emotional trauma (that became cyclic / downward spiral) and maybe her disbelief... landed her in such a place.

I don't remember any strong religious overtones... very little if any.

The cure to her hell was to forgive herself / and to believe in something greater than herself.

hmm... I have read accounts of people crossing over.... Buddhists see Buddha, Christians see Christ and so on...

These beliefs / expectations all shape...

As I said before... you make/ create / realize your own being/ dreamscape

I have wondered if... .(At the upper level of this density, there are no limits to our desires)

an Atheist... desiring no "afterlife" etc... does dream of oblivion... until such time their consciousness stirs again...

I think Robin Williams was a great selection for that film... + his other films...

The playfulness.... suspending disbelief etc

In terms of dimensions... I believe they are all within...

take this orange slice for example...






So the skin of the orange would be the 1,2 dim

the fleshy white part would be the 3rd dim

and so on... until the center / the zero point.

?


edit: this is very basic / sketch more or less... of what feel at present...

working model.

Edited January 28, 2013 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Marblehead]

Sure,...but what is a thought? Can you ever think in the absolute Now?

 

Would it not be prudent to let go of beliefs about the present, past and future,...and examine what is really going on?

 

The prose of romantic ideas are fun,...and spiritually disempowering.

 

Is there ever a Present, Instant, or Now in time? If not, why pretend otherwise. If there is no Present, Instant, or Now in time,...why say the past and future, which are in time, are also in the Present?

 

Why not be honest? Really honest.

It is still early morning for me so please forgive me if I screw up this response.

 

Here I will speak of myself only and I remind all readers that I am rather aged and fully retired and I "have enough".

 

I try to live most of my life spontaneously. That means living in the "now" moment and doing only whatever I am inspired to do.

 

Any moment from now I might wonder if a flower bud I saw yesterday has yet opened into a full flower and off I will go, out the house, into the garden, to take a look at that particular plant and its potential flower. At that point in time absolutely nothing else matters not will any other thought enter into my mind.

 

Now, don't misunderstand, I don't wonder around all day looking as if I am a lost soul. There is, more often than not, structure in my life.

 

I make plans for the future even if it is just what I might need do this afternoon. I also look to the past, consider knowledge I have gained in the past and lessons I have learned from past experiences and use this data while planning for my future moments.

 

So, in my mind, the past, the present, and the future are all relavent (and relative to me alone although my actions or inaction may or may not effect others).

 

So, while I agree that there is no absolute present regarding our living, there is relative present as well as relative past and relative future.

 

Yes, I still hold to the understanding that time is linear - there is a past, present, and future along that line and we can difine the exact position we are at in the present as compared to any point in the past. (Of course, we cannot define where we will be in the future because it hasn't happened yet.