Trolling and Off-topic disruptions

[Marblehead]

... squirrels! ...

I saw that. Hehehe.

[Seth Ananda]

I won't deny the truth in your post as there is much truth there.

 

But, I don't agree that the Mods are the soul of this board. It is we, the members. We are a very mixed bunch of people with just about every belief system represented here.

I consider us to be the body of the board, the mods the soul, and sean the spirit

There are many here who were raise to be anti-gay. Mostly a result of their religion. I was raised that way and it was very difficult for me to discard my prejudices against gay people. I'm not gay but I know that there are many who are and I have no right whatever to place my personal values on anyone else. If is person is gay or choses to be gay that is their personal preferrence and has nothing to do with anyone else.

The Same for racists, and {some} bullies. Of course a persons history leads them up to being what they are now, and the ways they have of expressing themselves. That doesn't mean that society doesn't try to protect the rest of its people by legislating against certain behaviours.

 

And again, racism is not {usually} tolerated here despite what upbringing the racist may have had.

But let's be honest. People who have been brainwashed to believe that homosexuality is wrong are truely speaking the truth as they understand it. It is all subjective. Objectively, it doesn't matter.

yes, and Like racists they need to be silenced. they are free to think what they wan't in their own heads.

 

Anti racism works across generations.

When racism first started to be targeted through public shaming tactics and reprimands, and the racists lost most of their public speaking platforms, it didn't really change their minds.

I am fine with that.

In the hate speech silence that mostly followed, each new generation was a little freer from Racisms various stupidities.

It made being Black safer, and less of something to feel ashamed of.

Little black kids now grow up with less discrimination and with more self esteem than the older generations before them.

 

The fact that they no longer get smashed to the same degree by cultural hatred of their colour is of inestimable value to millions of human beings.

 

Now it is time to give Gays the same right to freedom from shame and safety of living circumstances.

 

Like the race Issue, Gays {often} have no choice about who they are. They have been with us from the start, and are part of our History. They are valuable members of and contributors to society. They are not going anywhere, and they are still second class citizens in most parts of the world. Gay suicide is among the highest rates in the world, due to hatred of gays, due to gay stereotyping, and due to dodgy slanted 'science' that paints them in a certain manner.

 

If the TTB's wishes to be part of that, well it is despicable.

[et-thoughts]

- that's just me and others may not agree and that's cool as long as we are trying to communicate with each other.

Just note that some choose to cease to communicate because they realize that other individuals are unwilling to listen to reason... and will misuse whatever is put on the table. It's sort of ironic how intolerant some individuals are of certain individuals while they claim to hold the tolerance flag... Because of individuals actions I choose to edit (delete most of what I had posted to ttb and basically have abstained from further contributions - this being one of the few exceptions ).

 

wanted to add... that the issue of 'no discrimination' involves neither voicing support for or against a particular way... there is quite a bit of discrimination by some who want to cultivate their ways rather than the other ways... and I am being careful to just point the situation without taking a particular stand... what I state applies to each side...

Edited February 8, 2013 by et-thoughts

[ralis]

The thread in question is still down the Orwellian memory hole.

[Marblehead]

I consider us to be the body of the board, the mods the soul, and sean the spirit

Nice response - all of the post. I have nothing further to say at the moment.

[JustARandomPanda]

Cat consulted with a former mod who is more familiar with the LGBT thread posts and whom advised us no hate speech was posted in that thread. Since no other mods are speaking in favor of taking action I'll unhide it.

[Seth Ananda]

Seth,

 

 

I agree with you. But who is doing that here, and how? I know you already named some names...but I don't think they have crossed the line into Westborough territory.

You are to a degree, and WWROA more so, usually with Gaito running around thumbs upping his posts.

 

You worked in an std clinic with a large gay clientele and from there have decided that Gays 'tend towards'... a bunch of undesirable characteristics. which is actively and deliberately painting a set of negative stereotypes about their community.

 

What's more, wtf? You worked in one clinic, that happened to have many gay clients, and drew conclusions from that! Not very scientific my friend.

If I worked in one std clinic that was populated heavily by heterosexuals, I would not be deciding that that meant something about all {or many} heterosexuals.

Well, no one has come onto this forum calling people "faggots" (sorry) or anything. No one has posted info from websites of people who have historically been murderers of gay people. I really don't think a rule has been broken here.

The people here are actively contributing to the further oppression of Gay people by painting negative stereotyping pictures of that community.

Pasting links to false or slanted anti gay propaganda is deliberately setting out to damage and undermine a community.

 

At the time when people were talking about freeing the slaves, there were also white people sitting back saying things like:

 

"lets talk about this without getting to emotionally fired up, are they really equal? you mean have you seen a slave? they really are very dirty people. I have seen them myself, living in filth, and they can not even read! Its a bit of a risk, say we free them and they really are disgusting slobs and will never be able to learn differently? Hey don't get offended you left wing fascist, I am just having a moderate calm conversation, and bring up intelligent points!"

 

Conservativism has no absolutely comparison to the KKK, unless a Conservative would somehow be in the KKK. I say that as an Independent and someone who is generally anti-Conservative.

they are closely related. The conservative wishes to conserve how things are/were and is very uncomfortable about change happening too fast. this means that during times of social upheavals like race equality, the conservative is much more likely to give credence to the Ideas of the KKK than a pro change group.

Nearly all the conservative sites here in Aus, are either blatantly or subtly anti gay marriage, and anti Aboriginal amendments that give them more rights.

 

 

But if a website with information is questionable, then it can simply be pointed out. It's not against the rules to post from websites that have a bias, is it? Unless the poster knew they were spreading false information. In this case, I think they believe the information is completely true...

It should be against the rules, regardless of what they believe, the same way a website with Information about blacks and Phrenology has no place here.

 

Society legislates to protect its members. Hate mongers, conscious of it or not, need to be silenced.

 

Again. Race! It is no longer cool to post things that damn a racial community. This has to happen on the Gay front as well.

 

Posting things that Damn the Gay community is exactly the same.

 

(Maybe there needs to be a Taobums court of law....?)

 

 

No one here is saying they should be publicly stoned. And at least personally, I wasn't using "Christian science" to share the idea that homosexual men tend to be STD-ridden. I used my experience in a health care setting, as well as the CDC website.

 

And to be clear...being gay doesn't mean you are STD-ridden. A person can probably lead a safe lifestyle while being gay, if they're smart.

 

 

But if those little links show actual facts (statistics for instance) regarding the point they're making, then it's also fine, because it's truth.

 

 

Coincidentally, my elementary school had that policy. One day suddenly the principal walked up to me after recess and grabbed my arm forcibly. Apparently someone said that I had pushed a girl from behind. I didn't recall doing it, and neither did the girl, who was my friend. The punishment was rather severe for a little kid who likely didn't actually do it...

 

 

If there is actual hate speech, rather than just slightly biased sources of information, then moderation should definitely happen.

 

The issues are really important.

Slightly Biased information is Hate speech.

It Infects the minds of less discerning readers and breeds more homophobes, who then go out and help make some poor persons life a living Hell.

 

Not to mention how welcome it makes them feel when they are here.

 

Not very welcoming.

 

Maybe we should put a sign at the door saying No Blacks, No Gays!

[ralis]

Cat consulted with a former mod who is more familiar with the LGBT thread posts and whom advised us no hate speech was posted in that thread. Since no other mods are speaking in favor of taking action I'll unhide it.

 

Exactly who is the expert in this case? I guess that those of us who stood up against this behavior are wrong? The weak minded who attempt to control the strong, prevail with their rigid religious ideology? I believe hate speech occurred and a group of innocent persons were bullied by a weak minded minority making disparaging remarks and somehow that is acceptable? Reasonable persons do not condone unevolved behavior as has been occurring with more regularity on this forum.

 

These incidents are not occurring in isolation from the societal system and it is the responsibility of all reasonable persons to speak out against such anti social behavior. Nothing is separate and as long as behavior such as this is not discouraged, it will only grow larger and more virulent. The religious right is on a continuous attack against anyone not submitting to their ideology of a higher cause. In this case the gay community.

[三江源]

TTB's, in allowing injustice to go unchecked, is becoming corrupt in its soul. {the mods are the soul}

 

Slightly Biased information is Hate speech.

 

 

I believe hate speech occurred and a group of innocent persons were bullied

 

actively and deliberately painting a set of negative stereotypes about their community.

 

The people here are actively contributing to the further oppression of ... people by painting negative stereotyping pictures of that community.

 

 

it is the responsibility of all reasonable persons to speak out against such anti social behavior. Nothing is separate

 

Not to mention how welcome it makes them feel when they are here.

 

Not very welcoming.

 

 

Exactly who is the expert in this case?

[ralis]

There are some on this forum that believe that the 'civil rights laws' passed in the 60's are unconstitutional. If that were the case, then blacks in this country would still be considered to be 3/5 of a person, not be allowed to vote, schools would still be segregated etc. This kind of flawed objectivist reasoning does not take into account unenvolved human nature. History is replete with genocide and abuse of persons that are different, which is primitive tribalism being acted out.

 

Laws are necessary to control aberrant behavior without which, anything is possible, for good or bad.

[ralis]

The rules set forth on this forum are a social contract. However, there seems to be a wide latitude of discretion on the part of the mods with interpretation. This so called contract is nothing more than a formality.

[Apech]

The rules set forth on this forum are a social contract. However, there seems to be a wide latitude of discretion on the part of the mods with interpretation. This so called contract is nothing more than a formality.

 

 

You call it a contract ... everyone else sees it as a no insult rule with a couple of other things tagged on. I think despite criticisms that this board gets the moderation that the TBs community wants. Quite a few people want none at all. In fact at one time were you not one of them? Some people want more strict rules about content but the rest of us, and I include myself just want some light touch modding that prevents long boring ranting disputes, flame wars and a lot of swearing. That fosters an atmosphere of respect. Surely you can see how difficult it is for the mod team to step into the area of content moderation ... i.e. censorship ... preventing certain ideas from being expressed. Where would that stop? Do you want your views on practice to be controlled? So it can only happen in extremis in my view.

[ralis]

You call it a contract ... everyone else sees it as a no insult rule with a couple of other things tagged on. I think despite criticisms that this board gets the moderation that the TBs community wants. Quite a few people want none at all. In fact at one time were you not one of them? Some people want more strict rules about content but the rest of us, and I include myself just want some light touch modding that prevents long boring ranting disputes, flame wars and a lot of swearing. That fosters an atmosphere of respect. Surely you can see how difficult it is for the mod team to step into the area of content moderation ... i.e. censorship ... preventing certain ideas from being expressed. Where would that stop? Do you want your views on practice to be controlled? So it can only happen in extremis in my view.

 

In general, there is no atmosphere of respect on this forum. Recently I was called a 'ungodly liberal' and Luciferian by WWROA. That is not respect. Further, I have been disrespectfully shouted down by Joeblast on numerous occasions.

 

What I am seeing here is that those of us who truly speak out, are the ones being blamed for the problems here. The weak are asserting control here through right wing propaganda, fear and extreme religious posturing. That is what is occurring in this country.

Edited February 9, 2013 by ralis

[Apech]

In general, there is no atmosphere of respect on this forum. Recently I was called a 'ungodly liberal' and Luciferian by WWROA. That is not respect. Further, I have been disrespectfully shouted down by Joeblast on numerous occasions.

 

What I am seeing here is that those of us who truly speak out, are the ones being blamed for the problems here. The weak are asserting control here through right wing propaganda, fear and extreme religious posturing.

 

 

Ok well they shouldn't be calling you names I agree. I assume you reported these things. For me when I was a mod it was very difficult to make out what was going on in those American political threads. You don't see any British, European, Chinese or other political threads .... but you guys battle away about stuff and people I have never heard of (aside from Obama and Clinton) ... in fact American politics just looks like the far right arguing with the centre right to me ... you don't have any proper left wing politics anyway ...

 

I live in a country where there is a Communist party which gets a sizable vote and runs certain cities, a Left Block which is a coalition of Trots, Marxists and Greens, a Left wing centre party a rightwing centre party and a far right nationalist party. That's real politics to me. Its no wonder USians call Obama a Communist because they haven't got the first idea what that means ... not a clue. Anyway rant over. thank you listening.

[ralis]

Ok well they shouldn't be calling you names I agree. I assume you reported these things. For me when I was a mod it was very difficult to make out what was going on in those American political threads. You don't see any British, European, Chinese or other political threads .... but you guys battle away about stuff and people I have never heard of (aside from Obama and Clinton) ... in fact American politics just looks like the far right arguing with the centre right to me ... you don't have any proper left wing politics anyway ...

 

I live in a country where there is a Communist party which gets a sizable vote and runs certain cities, a Left Block which is a coalition of Trots, Marxists and Greens, a Left wing centre party a rightwing centre party and a far right nationalist party. That's real politics to me. Its no wonder USians call Obama a Communist because they haven't got the first idea what that means ... not a clue. Anyway rant over. thank you listening.

 

I agree that the political landscape is dominated by the far right here in the U.S. Most here are uneducated in terms of politics and just follow what feels good, propaganda being served by Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and so forth.

 

Most are ignorant of what Hobbes, Rousseau et al were writing in regards to human nature and politics. I see it on this forum. Further, there are some on this forum that think history is an irrelevant pursuit and does not apply to the present political and social situation.

Edited February 9, 2013 by ralis

[ralis]

This further explains the right wing propaganda from Fox News.

 

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2011/07/14-propaganda-techniques-fox-news-uses-to-brainwash-americans/

[JustARandomPanda]

In general, there is no atmosphere of respect on this forum. Recently I was called a 'ungodly liberal' and Luciferian by WWROA. That is not respect. Further, I have been disrespectfully shouted down by Joeblast on numerous occasions.

 

What I am seeing here is that those of us who truly speak out, are the ones being blamed for the problems here. The weak are asserting control here through right wing propaganda, fear and extreme religious posturing. That is what is occurring in this country.

 

 

Edit:

 

The above is for the entire board. It is NOT meant at Ralis. It's to demonstrate.

 

**********

 

The above is exactly what I was talking about earlier that is difficult to moderate. Is 'ungodly liberal' or 'Luciferian' showing condescension or is it an outright hostile ad hominem? The general sentiment is that it would be seen as possible condescension but not outright ad hominem. Not like "you're an a-hole" or "shit-for-brains" etc. And so we'd let it slide.

 

Even in the latter case - in order to preserve the light-on-moderation atmosphere the default is to ask the person who called someone an a-hole or shit-for-brains to edit out the post. Failing that then discussion moves to whether this or that person deserves a suspension. The more that person has a post history of doing the above with a correspondingly low "helpful contribution ratio" the higher the likelyhood of everyone agreeing it's time to hand out a suspension. The idea being we want people to contribute meaningfully. Not to suppress speech. Or try to always make the board all happy-happy-joy-joy circle of regulars massaging each others egos.

 

The above procedure - evidence plus debate plus timezone differences - is why mod response is often painfully slow.

 

This is also a big reason why it was finally decided TTB might not be a place to have a separate "Teacher's Section". They'd have to be able to take criticism (Even possibly unjustifiable criticism had the posts been presented in a law court) and just let it roll off their back.

 

Because there is NO WAY to NOT make a judgement call of when condescension crosses the line to become 'outright disrespect' and ad hominem. That last one is critical to why the mod team mods as we do.

 

You think we show bias now?

 

I promise you you haven't begun to see what bias is if we will be required to start stepping in to adjudicate as to what crosses the line.

 

You can not even decide amongst yourselves if there was hate speech in that thread or whether it was unpleasant fact.

 

TTB is not a law court and we do not have a long list of thou-shalt-not rules in place. We have to make judgement calls all the while knowing somebody is always going to see us as biased, having agendas, playing favorites and unfair. The majority of members have consistently and loudly told us over and over to 'butt-out' of their threads and not turn into hovering nannies or thought-police.

 

The board gets what it has consistently told us it wants.

Edited February 9, 2013 by SereneBlue

[gendao]

Right Wing War Against Pro Choice.

Right Wing War Against LGBT's

 

Let's be honest, these issues are really serving as proxies for underlying Left Wing anti-Right Wing Christian Fundamentalism. The real concern here is not for these special interests - but simply of using them as convenient pawns against the Right. (Note, I am also a frequent critic of Christian Fundamentalism myself, so don't think that is wrong in itself. People may believe and argue whatever they want! That's kinda the point of a "debate." )

 

However, such overemotional grudges are nonetheless typically displaced anger at unresolved personal issues (usually from childhood and earlier)... The more original targets of such aggression are actually the Christian Fundamentalists that "tormented" such angry ranters during their youth. But in their place now, may remain only an army of self-constructed straw men...

 

Unfortunately, simply retaliating against them to the other polar end of the spectrum (clearly) does not resolve the root paradigm, though. One may switch from Fundamental Leftist to Rightist (or vice-versa)...but the old, bitter anger shall still REMAIN.

 

Because the deeper Fundamentalist mindset does - that of viewing the world in very black & white terms of absolute morality based upon obedience/authoritarianism (not reasoning). Do or don't do this simply because "God" said so - not because of (insert actual reasons)... IOW, something is either absolutely morally right or wrong (for everyone) - simply "because," with no exceptions or explanation required. Hence, messages (facts or rational basis) are never questioned, only messengers. So, it ultimately doesn't matter which side of the paradigm you're on here - because you are still STUCK IN THE SAME PARADIGM.

 

Now, what happens when this Fundamentalist paradigm collides with another one utilizing "situational ethics" instead where individuals make up their own minds based upon their own intuition and knowing as much (pros vs cons) about each situation as possible to "best" navigate 50,000 shades of gray reality in real time? Infuriating heresy!!! Remember, an authoritarian absolutist (Fundamentalist) cannot tolerate any nuanced appeals to logic or grayscale view of their clearly-defined, polarized world. That would be like claiming the Earth is round!

 

 

But at the end at the end of the day, if you believe this worldly realm is akin to a video game, only the ego gets overemotional about it. Well, IMHO that is...just my additional 2 cents, good day all!

Edited February 9, 2013 by vortex

[ralis]

Vortex,

 

I am on my phone and it will take too long to type a full response.

 

What the two threads respond to are threats to privacy from the right. Whether it be the fetal personhood bill being passed in N. Dakota or the incessant attacks on persons by the religious right. In this case gay rights. This is not a left right issue but one of how a society treats others who are different.

[gendao]

This is not a left right issue but one of how a society treats others who are different.

But to YOU it IS - hence you titled them, "Right Wing War Against....XXX"

 

And in reality, XXX = You.

 

Sorry, just trying to read your subconscious subtext here. I am not saying I am right or wrong, just attempting to look past the surface to serve some food for your own thought. And you are, of course, totally free to take it or leave it.

 

Or, if you want to keep railing away at the Right...I have no problem with that, either.

 

Just be well, my friend.

Edited February 9, 2013 by vortex

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

why did you assert something on his behalf in an argument?
doing so discredits your assertion in and of itself.

[ralis]

But to YOU it IS - hence you titled them, "Right Wing War Against....XXX"

 

And in reality, XXX = You.

 

Sorry, just trying to read your subconscious subtext here. I am not saying I am right or wrong, just attempting to look past the surface to serve as some food for your own thought. And you are, of course, totally free to take it or leave it.

 

Be well, my friend.

 

 

What I mean is that all persons whether left or right must speak out against this problem. Further, the problem in question does come from the extreme right.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

BWWAAAAAHHHHAWWWHAWHAWHAAHHHAAAAHHHWHAW!!!!

[illyria]

Talking about politics online never ends well.

[ralis]

BWWAAAAAHHHHAWWWHAWHAWHAAHHHAAAAHHHWHAW!!!!

Do you have something intelligent to add? I rather doubt it!