Starting again from the beginning

[Jetsun]

I have been studying Buddhism for many years, mostly Tibetan Buddhism, but so far it's been a bit of a scattergun approach where I would just read bits here and there and try various practices often trying to do higher practices like Tantra and Dzogchen, but after reading and listening to Alan Wallace (thanks to the people on this site for putting me onto him) he has convinced me in the value of getting a firm footing in the foundations of the first few turnings of the wheel of Dharma. I have also realised that many of the books and approaches I have already studied assume you already have this foundation, so I have been getting ahead of myself and need to start again from the beginning.

 

What I need now is some sort of path or guide to how to gain this foundational understanding, what texts and books are recommended? as there are so many thousands of books it is overwhelming to know where to best put our time and effort to gain a firm understanding of the basics. I have tried in the past reading the Pali texts of The Middle Length discourses of the Buddha but I found it too boring and repetitive to maintain my interest, so was wondering if there is any other way.

[Cheshire Cat]

Visuddhimagga

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Tibetan_Ice]

I have been studying Buddhism for many years, mostly Tibetan Buddhism, but so far it's been a bit of a scattergun approach where I would just read bits here and there and try various practices often trying to do higher practices like Tantra and Dzogchen, but after reading and listening to Alan Wallace (thanks to the people on this site for putting me onto him) he has convinced me in the value of getting a firm footing in the foundations of the first few turnings of the wheel of Dharma. I have also realised that many of the books and approaches I have already studied assume you already have this foundation, so I have been getting ahead of myself and need to start again from the beginning.

 

What I need now is some sort of path or guide to how to gain this foundational understanding, what texts and books are recommended? as there are so many thousands of books it is overwhelming to know where to best put our time and effort to gain a firm understanding of the basics. I have tried in the past reading the Pali texts of The Middle Length discourses of the Buddha but I found it too boring and repetitive to maintain my interest, so was wondering if there is any other way.

 

Hi Jetsun,

Well, I would recommend getting a copy of The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace.

http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Revolution-Unlocking-Power-Focused/dp/0861712765

 

It's only $9.99 on kindle (and the kindle app for PC is free to download).

 

I would also download and listen to all the podcasts for the Dzogchen Retreat here:

 

http://archive.org/details/IntroductionToDzogchenRetreatWithAlanWallace2012

 

It is like Alan Wallace says, shamatha is the key. Like he says, shamatha is the "little engine that could". He claims that in some cases shamatha can take you all the way. Without Shamata, you can't focus your mind nor can you hang on to any higher experiences to realize them fully. You have to get those 5 obscurations or 5 hinderances under control.

 

Actually, Alan Wallace has written many books. Mind in the Balance and Stilling the Mind are very good.

 

And, the best foundation is actually practising.. Do all of the guided meditations from the Dzogchen retreat.. That will walk you through the different forms of meditations all the way to the top (Dzogchen).

 

If you have already listened to the retreat, there are more podcasts that you can listen to.. I've listened to them all..

 

http://www.sbinstitute.com/node/775/podcast

 

TI

[Cheshire Cat]

I have been studying Buddhism for many years, mostly Tibetan Buddhism, but so far it's been a bit of a scattergun approach where I would just read bits here and there and try various practices often trying to do higher practices like Tantra and Dzogchen, [...]

May I ask who told you that there are "higher practices" and that they are tantra and dzogchen?

[Jetsun]

May I ask who told you that there are "higher practices" and that they are tantra and dzogchen?

I'm just talking about the different turnings of the wheel of Dharma, in that each turning builds on the foundations of the previous ones so in a sense the later ones are higher teachings. Petty much all the books on Mahayana and Vajrayana I have read explain this. But in another sense if all wheels lead to the same place then they are all equal.

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm just talking about the different turnings of the wheel of Dharma, in that each turning builds on the foundations of the previous ones so in a sense the later ones are higher teachings. Petty much all the books on Mahayana and Vajrayana I have read explain this. But in another sense if all wheels lead to the same place then they are all equal.

 

If every turning of the wheel of Dharma is superior to the previous ones, then we may assume that

once the superior teachings are proclaimed, the inferiors will vanish.

 

This is because there's no use for the legendary Ford T now that we have superior vehicles.

Even if the superior teaching builds on the foundations of the previous ones, then there is no use for disciples of the Buddha to hold on uncomplete teachings -if they were not a bunch of idiots-. Instead, there should be a fine transition without sectarian movements holding back.

People who trust the Pope as the human representative of Jesus Christ will follow the updated rules. If the Buddha proclaimed a superior teachings, why should his disciples do not trust him?

 

But we know that hinayana and mahayana existed together for a long time...

 

The mahayana emerged in indian buddhist communities around the beginning of the common era (today we have many varieties of mahayana teachings in tibet, China, Corea, etc..).

 

But where does this tradition comes from?

The mahayana texts trace the origins of Mahayana to the second turning of the wheel of the Dharma during the life of the Buddha himself.

The teachings of the Buddha were delivered to a special assembly of bodhisattvas from which the followers of the lesser vehicles and solitary buddhas had been excluded.

The texts go on saying that the teachings were conceived for several centuries until the world was ready to receive it.

 

Then the time comes when someone started saying "Hey guys, I have the ultimate teaching of the Buddha. He didn't deliver this to your ancestors and masters because they were so stupid. But now trust me, this teaching was given to an assembly of celestial angels at the time of the Buddha! Your ancestors weren't invited: they were not clever enough"

 

Did the Buddha decide to deliberately create confusions amongst practitioners?

[Jetsun]

Different teachings were taught for the varied caliber and understanding of seekers. Plus different eras need different teachings, or rather emphasis on certain aspects of the teachings which is supposedly why Torma teachings were hidden for later generations. Apparently were in a dark era so many Dzogchen Tormas have been revealed which allow you to go right to the heart of the teaching very quickly. It is reasonable to question whether these teachings are legitimate as they were not revealed during the Buddha's lifetime, all I can say is that many other people have questioned this also and done extensive study into this and concluded that they are legitimate Dharma teachings and personally I trust some of the people teaching them so I am satisfied with their legitimacy. I just want to get a firm understanding in the fundamentals so I can apply these teachings more thoroughly.

[Cheshire Cat]

Different teachings were taught for the varied caliber and understanding of seekers. Plus different eras need different teachings, or rather emphasis on certain aspects of the teachings which is supposedly why Torma teachings were hidden for later generations.

 

 

To say that different eras need different teachings means that people of today are different from the people at the time of the Buddha. Based on this statement, we can assume that the original teachings could be no longer valid and workable today.

Hence, the need for new teachings.

This explains why the mahayana teachings were hidden.

 

Does this means that the Buddha prepared different teachings for different eras and hid them?

Why he never said to his followers to keep the dharma open for upgrades from the heavens?

How could we be sure of the legitimacy of this upgrades?

 

This is a trouble because it's allowed to every teacher to "reveal" hidden teachings whenever he feel the need.

Thus, the Dharma is a constantly changing thing, continuously adapting to different conditions. Should I assume that every transformation is legitimate? How could I legitimate a teaching and say that the others are wrong or surpassed? Buddha didn't signed a single document.

It's from here that you read on books that tantra and dzogchen are higher teachings.

This is sad.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[sati]

I just want to get a firm understanding in the fundamentals so I can apply these teachings more thoroughly.

 

Geshe Tashi Tsering wrote several little books that explain in a systematic way the fundamentals. They serve as a basis for a course ( Foundation of Buddhist thought ) he offers at Jamyang Buddhist Center in London, and also in a online format.

These books are available at amazon in a printed format and also in Kindle format.

The first of the series is this one : the Four Noble Truths

I found the ones I have quite clear.

 

You can also have a look at H.H Dalai Lama 's Four Noble Truths book. I have read it a long time ago and don't have it handy now so I can't really say how good it is, but H.H. DL 's books are quite good generally speaking. I would be able to get it back in a few days (Sunday) and tell you more about it. I remember it is a quite thick book.

 

If you want a Theravada taste and don't have it already, you can find here an online version of Walpola Rahula What the Buddha Taught. But I resonate more with the Tibetan Mahayana way of explaining the Dharma.

 

My opinion is that reading is only useful in so far as you relate what to read to your own personal experience and don't accept what you read as a dogma if you don't find it your life.The Kalama sutra is the essential guide here.

[C T]

To say that different eras need different teachings means that people of today are different from the people at the time of the Buddha. Based on this statement, we can assume that the original teachings could be no longer valid and workable today.

Hence, the need for new teachings.

This explains why the mahayana teachings were hidden.

 

Does this means that the Buddha prepared different teachings for different eras and hid them?

Why he never said to his followers to keep the dharma open for upgrades from the heavens?

How could we be sure of the legitimacy of this upgrades?

 

This is a trouble because it's allowed to every teacher to "reveal" hidden teachings whenever he feel the need.

Thus, the Dharma is a constantly changing thing, continuously adapting to different conditions. Should I assume that every transformation is legitimate? How could I legitimate a teaching and say that the others are wrong or surpassed? Buddha didn't signed a single document.

It's from here that you read on books that tantra and dzogchen are higher teachings.

This is sad.

You need not have to assume anything -- the choice, obviously, is up to your good self.

 

Your speculations are interesting, nonetheless.

 

A transformation is a transformation. Its legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If the mind does not intervene, then this particular doubt will not arise. When doubts do not arise, or even if they do, but there is no clinging, then there is a sense of reflectiveness, contemplative exercises, where things are seen but not grasped. Non-grasping, things come and go, in their own space and time, according to the causes and conditions which brings about their appearances and passing.

 

Higher, average and lower are also pertinent to all the different levels of people's mental capacities, specifically in regard to being given teachings. A tulku, for example, though he may be incarnated as the highest lineage holder of a particular tradition, still has to undergo novice training covering the teachings of the lesser vehicles during his/her formative years. This can only be helpful, and is recommended for every student of Buddhism. Its natural, its safe and its assured. As a matter of fact, there are many teachers who encourage students not to neglect the Ngondro practices even if they have ascended to the more profound aspects of the Dharma. Returning to the basics again and again, one remains grounded and secure in the wisdom of patient humility.

 

Its much better and easier to generate faith and to find an affinity with the preparatory stages of the path. Sure footedness here would ensure an easier transition over into the more esoteric and metaphysical aspects of the 'greater' vehicles.

 

Jetsun has explained his position very clearly, and has a very mature approach set up. I think he will make very good progress in time.

[Jetsun]

What sort of teachings are you after?

 

The Four Noble Truths + The Noble Eightfold Path is all you really need and they are the essence of Buddha's teachings.

 

There is nothing hidden as Buddhas have nothing to hide.

 

I don't quite understand why you guys worry so much when things are so clear.

 

I am just after a clear approach to the fundamental teachings starting off with the Theravada approach, they might be the essence but Alan Wallace was instructed to study the fundamentals for many years before moving onto different practices like Dzogchen and he explains why this is important in many of his podcasts, so I think it takes more than just a brief study of these things . Someone before told me to study the Pali Canon which is thousands of pages long and incredibly boring and repetitive so I was hoping for a better method but when you look into it there are hundreds of thousands of books to choose from. I think I will just start with 'What the Buddha Taught', thanks Sati for that suggestion.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Jetsun

[Jetsun]

This is a trouble because it's allowed to every teacher to "reveal" hidden teachings whenever he feel the need.

Thus, the Dharma is a constantly changing thing, continuously adapting to different conditions. Should I assume that every transformation is legitimate? How could I legitimate a teaching and say that the others are wrong or surpassed? Buddha didn't signed a single document.

It's from here that you read on books that tantra and dzogchen are higher teachings.

This is sad.

 

The fact that the surface of the Dharma teachings are always changing means that they are alive and current rather than old dead relics like many other religions. The only real ways to have faith that the teachings still bare fruit is to meet a master who convinces you, or try them them out to see what happens, but most people don't have many years to experiment so I suggest seeking out a master who shows signs of achievement, then the proof is in the results of these masters.

[konchog uma]

What sort of teachings are you after?

 

The Four Noble Truths + The Noble Eightfold Path is all you really need and they are the essence of Buddha's teachings.

 

There is nothing hidden as Buddhas have nothing to hide.

 

I don't quite understand why you guys worry so much when things are so clear.

 

i agree the first turning is in many ways a "higher" set of teachings than much that comes later... the rest of mahayana seems at times to be commentary on the noble truths and path. Many people think themselves realized because they can intellectually comprehend mahayana and vajrayana teachings, but they have a hard time manifesting the eightfold path . I know many people in vajrayana sanghas i belong to, and lol here on TTB that struggle with right speech.

 

i think getting back to basics is amazing, and beyond that, i think the six paramitas are worth noting, and also the practice of metta using all four immeasurables. I second the notion that it all boils down to shamatha and vipashyana, the whole foundation is that basic. For all the neurosis of buddhists, and their overintellectualization and propensity for words and lists, its pretty simple at its core.

 

i think that without the foundation in basics that you are after, practicing tantra and dzogchen is going to be a matter of learning the view but perhaps not having the capacity for the path. Its so common to see this, its everywhere. Part of the problem itself is the idea that those practices are higher... they require greater capacity than to contemplate suffering or its cessation, but the real problem is just as jetsun notes: that people progress on the path without laying a solid foundation for themselves in basics: loving-kindness, compassion, and basic wisdom.

 

Without those, its just an exercise in intellectual masturbation

 

"Never forget the hinayana" -Ven. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Edited January 29, 2013 by konchog uma

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[RongzomFan]

Madhyamaka is the basis of Vajrayana, and allowed Vajrayana to develop in India.

[RongzomFan]

Madhyamaka is also the pinnacle of sutrayana

[RongzomFan]

What I need now is some sort of path or guide to how to gain this foundational understanding, what texts and books are recommended?

 

 

Study Madhyamaka

[RongzomFan]

Buddha didn't signed a single document.

It's from here that you read on books that tantra and dzogchen are higher teachings.

This is sad.

 

Except Buddha is not the only Buddha.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahasiddha

 

Longchenpa, Chokgyur Lingpa, the Mahasiddhas etc. are all Buddhas.

 

I don't give a shit about the teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha.

[Cheshire Cat]

A transformation is a transformation. Its legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If the mind does not intervene, then this particular doubt will not arise. When doubts do not arise, or even if they do, but there is no clinging, then there is a sense of reflectiveness, contemplative exercises, where things are seen but not grasped. Non-grasping, things come and go, in their own space and time, according to the causes and conditions which brings about their appearances and passing.

 

If the mind doesn't intervene, I could teach a new form of buddhism in which Jesus Christ is in reality the Buddha Maitreya and all christian saints are bodhisattvas, Virgin Mary is Kwan-Yin..

People's mind will not cling on my absurd statements, there will be a sense of reflectiveness.

 

You're advocating the benefits of blind Faith. Why then the Buddha explicitly said to his disciples to "prove" to themselves what he was saying?

 

 

 

Higher, average and lower are also pertinent to all the different levels of people's mental capacities, specifically in regard to being given teachings.

 

If the teachings are higher and lower in accordance with people's mental capacities, then we may assume that the Dharma's history proves without any doubt that tibetans are the excellence among humans.

They were given vajrayana, the highest teaching. All the other country were full of donkey-humans with inferior teachings.

The nazis would gladly accept this as a fact.

As for me, I have several doubts.

 

In addition, the mere fact that the West received buddhism very recently, proves that asian populations have higher mental capacities than westerners.

 

 

EDIT

: I edited the original svastika because people where strangely scandalized..

 

Edited January 30, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[Cheshire Cat]

The fact that the surface of the Dharma teachings are always changing means that they are alive and current rather than old dead relics like many other religions. The only real ways to have faith that the teachings still bare fruit is to meet a master who convinces you, or try them them out to see what happens, but most people don't have many years to experiment so I suggest seeking out a master who shows signs of achievement, then the proof is in the results of these masters.

 

A few years ago, this was right.

Unfortunately, the times of the great tibetan mahasiddhas are gone... impermanence.

Today, we just have fully ordained priest-like monks who cannot exhibits any siddhis whatsoever

Edited January 30, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[RongzomFan]

Today, we just have fully ordained priest-like monks who cannot exhibits any siddhis whatsoever

 

 

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea of the biographies of Dudjom Rinpoche and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa. And neither were monks.

[Cheshire Cat]

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea of the biographies of Dudjom Rinpoche and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa. And neither were monks.

 

They were resurrected as Lazarus?

I think they are dead...

 

I greatly admired H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche.

Edited January 30, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[RongzomFan]

Although hosted on an Shugden site (i.e. ignore rest of site), this article gives a brief glimpse into the magical life of Dudjom Rinpoche and his son Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche.

 

 

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/dharma-readings/a-teaching-given-by-his-eminence-shenpen-dawa-rinpoche-on-nyingma-protector-shenpa/

Edited January 30, 2013 by alwayson