Takaaki's "American Taoism"

[Mark Saltveit]

Over in the topic for ch. 10 of the Daodejing, Takaaki starting delineating his concept of American Taoism, and got in trouble for being off topic. I'm pretty fascinated (as a Taoist, and an American, and possibly but I'm not sure an American Taoist.) So here's a place where it's unequivocally on topic.

[Mark Saltveit]

Here are some particulars Takaaki laid out:

 

 

 

You are making authoritative Dao De Jing pronouncements here. They are contrary to my ethos as an American Taoist.

Compassion doesn't work for me. I am not a communist. I believe in self-reliance.

Frugality is for people who are fearful. I focus on gain, not loss. I believe in abundance.

Never striving to be first? What's the matter with you? I am not a shirker. I want to create and bring about a better world.

 

 

But I take exception to your rejection of American Taoism as “illegitimate”. What about Wudang Taoism and Mao Shan Taoism? How come they are kosher and the American version is not? Each one has the right to pick up the Tao Te Ching and come away with what works for him or her. Self-determination is the grounding principle of American Taoism. No one gets to tell the American Taoist what is right for him or her without moral repercussions.

 

 

Are such females real or metaphorical like the Heavenly Gate? American females are battle-axes. They are scary. The Yin seems to have gone to the men.

 

 

 

But what, you ask, is the fundamental source of American Taoism? It turns out to be that uncarved blockhead, Marblehead himself.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Marblehead, on 25 Jan 2013 - 11:12, said:

 

And sure, I have my scars but in the most part I don't let them effect the rest of my life. (I used to be bothered by them though before becoming a Taoist.) (I just had to add that. Hehehe.)

Takaaki replies:

 

 

American Taoist, you mean. And you are my template for building a new brand for the Way.

 

"Thou art Marblehead, and upon this rock I shall build my church."

[Marblehead]

Yes, I did see your comment in the other thread. Hehehe. Now I will read the two posts.

[Marblehead]

Well, hey!, there is Zen Buddhism, why not American Taoism?

 

So yeah, American Taoism. Living in the present (Be nice Vmarco, hehehe) yet holding to the wisdom of the ancients. I don't see a conflict here. Today's Chinese who have become Westernized do it.

 

We don't have to ride an ass any more. We can own and drive a Dodge pickup.

 

I think that to pretend that we are still living in the year 525 bce is silly. It is now 2013 ce. Everyone reading this post will have a computer in from of them. Lao Tzu didn't have one.

 

The philosophy of Taoism is not racial specific. It is not culturally specific. Within Taoism are universal concepts.

 

My thoughts just wandered to my concept of "useful/useless" (to me). We accept and follow those concepts of Taoism that are useful to us, the concepts that are useless we let go of.

 

In my gardens there are flowers and sometimes weeds. I remove the weeds and nurture the flowers. How American is that?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The problem i have with titles is i dont put value in them, and consider them "harmful memes".


We are all nothing but human beings, and no matter what title we adopt, no matter what flag we fly, all we can ever do is BE human.




So at the end of the day, yes, i was born in the united states of america, yes i beleive in a great sum of taoism, but i also believe in a great sum of buddhism, christianity, judiasm, islam, "native american spirituality" (pardon the generics, i have not entered properly into learning about specifics between tribes and belief systems, they dont like us for takign their land; I dont blame them), and the scientific method(s).


So that doesnt mean i am an american. i am not. it does not mean i am a taoist. i am not.

These are only paths i am entitled to walk as a human being. If not for free will, i would not be human.

[Mark Saltveit]

Marblehead:

In my gardens there are flowers and sometimes weeds. I remove the weeds and nurture the flowers. How American is that?

 

HERE is how American that is: (from my blog Taoish)

American Koans #1: Volunteers

[Mark Saltveit]

To make my position clear here: I am totally down with the concept of an American (or stateless, modern and non-culturally-specific) Daoism. In fact my blog Taoish is pretty much dedicated to exploring that.

 

At the same time, Takaaki seems to have a very specific vision of American Daoism, which I'm not sure is exactly the same. And I'm especially intrigued because he lives in Japan and makes a point of brandishing his knowledge of the Chinese language, so I'm not clear if he considers himself an American Daoist or not.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I don't see how any of the pronouncements about "this is American Taoism" have anything to do with Taoism in them, other than an affinity for a few stanzas within the DDJ (the ideas of which can likely be found elsewhere just the same).

 

Even calling it "American" is rather inadequate, as most American's would profess an affinity for compassion, and amassing material goods beyond one's means is no more American than it is Japanese, Swiss, Korean, whatever.

 

I'm not sure that Takaaki took this too seriously, but...

[Marblehead]

Marblehead:

 

HERE is how American that is: (from my blog Taoish)

American Koans #1: Volunteers

Yes, I have had people tell me that 'your way' is the more Taoist way and that I should just let the weeds grow along with the flowers I grow. I'm not that kind of person. Your way is fine if that is what appeals to you. But then I suggest that my way is fine as well as long as that is what appeals to me.

 

Funny how often this "we all are special and unique" concept has entered my mind recently.

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure that Takaaki took this too seriously, but...

I'm not sure either but I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

 

I use my labels to let others know from where I am speaking. They really mean nothing to me.

[Mark Saltveit]

Marblehead:

 

Yes, I have had people tell me that 'your way' is the more Taoist way and that I should just let the weeds grow along with the flowers I grow. I'm not that kind of person.

 

Actually, that's not quite my method. To be precise:

 

I plant nothing ... I look at my garden. If I don’t like a plant, I kill it. I keep killing until I like everything.

 

I thought that might appeal to a soldier.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead:

 

 

Actually, that's not quite my method. To be precise:

 

 

I thought that might appeal to a soldier.

Yes, I did pick up on that (kill) but just ignored it. Hehehe

[manitou]

Seems to me that there is a time and a place for everything under heaven. The Tao will poke through our consciousnesses in our lives when the time is right. When the time is right to build an empire for yourself, to raise a family, to put kids through college - this requires a much more aggressive way of approaching life. The concepts referred to in the TTC would seem ridiculous; laughable, as it even says in the Tao. Surely, there are many concepts which will aid anyone in any time of their lives.

 

I would guess that the concept of american taoism would take into consideration the more aggressive nature of this society, as compared to, say, the ancient Chinese society for whom it was written. We Americans are taught from the cradle to compete, or at least I was - that 'head learning' was the most important thing, and that how much money we made was a pretty standard measure for how we were doing in life.

 

But when life takes a turn - suddenly you're retired, or in my case pensioned off with a disability - the game changes. The Tao seems to know this too. It knows when to suddenly appear in the form of a used book at a yard sale, or a casual mention from a stranger - something will plant the seed. The necessities of life are now different than they were 30 years ago - and along with it comes a lot more time (and desire) to delve deeply into the softer effects of the Tao, to learn how to do by Not-Doing, which is a very viable achievement. One must have the time and the inclination to indulge in the subtleties of the Tao; and there is no full comprehension of the Tao without having divested ourselves of the rough edges that life has formed within us in the form of character anamolies which keep us from seeing with total clarity.

 

While we Americans are in the process of 'grabbing for ourselves' the time may not be quite right for the type of serious self-purging that produces the 3 dimensional understanding of many of our spiritual traditions. This is the only possible difference I can see between traditional Taoism and something called American Taoism....American Taoism would probably include a provision for a more aggressive procurement of those things in life one thinks one needs.

 

Or....more interesting....perhaps an intentional mix of the TTC and The Art of War? Maybe American Taoism would place more of an emphasis on the battle of life itself; how the game is played, how the high ground is obtained, how the goal (whatever it is....riches?) is reached. that's food for thought, too.

 

P.S. Mark - I really like your site. I did join but haven't added anything yet.

[dawei]

I am glad to see this consolidated here. I am not sure I have figured out myself what is this idea of an 'American Taoist' or not... it's a label in the end and labels define and are usually inherently self-limit.

 

But I recall the exchange where Marblehead was asked if he was a materialist or taoist, as the questioner said one could not be both: And Marblehead rightly answered; both... This would be classical thinking eastern-style; Both/And instead of Either/Or.

 

So in this way, if this was a glimpse of the American Taoist .... to borrow from Burger King's slogan ('have it your way'): To be a taoist your own way... because Americans want to follow their own drumbeat and not be told what they can or cannot do...

 

I don't see this as any different than what a classical taoist was supposed to be; Following their own Way; That is Zi Ran joined at the hip with Wu Wei.

 

This was applied to Confucius [Way], Buddhist [Way], and then Daoist seemed to want to wrestle the idea as their label... So there is a classical precedent for using the term in any Way which might exist.

 

If we compare it to Religious Daoism and ritual or alchemy or Xian Dao practices... of course we'll find differences.

 

But I think I am still trying to see what is uniquely American Taoist still...

[zerostao]

i reckon i must be more of an appalachian taoist rather than an american taoist, becoz;

 

"Frugality is for people who are fearful"

this is certainly flawed thinking. frugality takes courage, i used to be frugal, then i took it to another level and became frugile.

i believe in abundance also but owning material stuff isnt too appealing to me. frugality is one way that i found freedom, materialism is a form of slavery.

"American females are battle-axes"

wtf lmao , obvious issues to deal with with this one. females are welcome in appalchian taoism.

"

But what, you ask, is the fundamental source of American Taoism? It turns out to be that uncarved blockhead, Marblehead himself."

hahaha i could work with this tho, i look at mh as a grandmaster

 

but really whats up with labels? be authenrtic in your own unique being and true to yourself

i do like the self-determinism and self-reliance ideas , kinda like emerson

also appalachian taoists are huge on nature

what i do see unfortunately are attempts to commercialize taoism, if that is what american taoism is about, then for sure i am appalachian taoist.

edit> oh yeah appalachian taoism is keen on anarchy

us appalachian taoists have trust in one another

Edited January 28, 2013 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

But I think I am still trying to see what is uniquely American Taoist still...

Me too, but I think I'm going to end up being one whatever it is determined one is.

[Marblehead]

what i do see unfortunately are attempts to commercialize taoism, if that is what american taoism is about, then for sure i am appalachian taoist.

I will state right here and now that that is not what I am about.

 

edit> oh yeah appalachian taoism is keen on anarchy

us appalachian taoists have trust in one another

Neat. I was talking with someone yesterday and mentioned that I enjoy going to nothern Georgia and northern Louisiana because of reasons similar to this. Their friendship toward total strangers is to be commended.

[zerostao]

"Their friendship toward total strangers is to be commended"

amen brother, and how last week i was just reminded of this very thing.

the help i recieved from "strangers" last week empowered my entire year, all i can do to repay them is to

try to carry on their hospitality and compassion.

roll tide

[Mark Saltveit]

You had me right up through Roll Tide, and I have to admit even I enjoyed them destroying Notre Dame.

 

Go Ducks!

Edited January 28, 2013 by Mark Saltveit

[zerostao]

i only said roll tide becoz it was in north alabama that total strangers saved my 2013.

georgia assisted, i cant leave them out. and a kentuckian and a guy from tennessee were my guides on the trip.

so, a combined effort from dixie.

they call alabama the crimson tide< call me deacon blues ha

[dwai]

To make my position clear here: I am totally down with the concept of an American (or stateless, modern and non-culturally-specific) Daoism. In fact my blog Taoish is pretty much dedicated to exploring that.

 

At the same time, Takaaki seems to have a very specific vision of American Daoism, which I'm not sure is exactly the same. And I'm especially intrigued because he lives in Japan and makes a point of brandishing his knowledge of the Chinese language, so I'm not clear if he considers himself an American Daoist or not.

What an absurd idea, if you ask me (i'll share my thoughts however even though you haven't )

 

I've had issues with "Western Daoism", "Western Hinduism" etc. They are all round about ways of digesting Daoism, Hinduism and other such "foreign" concepts and practices into a western paradigm.

 

Why does there need to be a "Western" version of these. Are the originals not good enough for Westerners (note I'm replacing American with Western because this peculiarity is prevalent all over the "West")?

 

Let this be very clear (and for those discerning thinkers who do tend to think about this, it will be) -- Everything Western is automatically a legacy of the Judaeo-Christian paradigm (primarily because of the long history associated of these associated with the West). Even those that claim to be "free' of that particular paradigm are in fact defined by it. In most cases it is unknowingly. In some cases it is knowingly.

 

Let me be also very clear -- I am not anti-West or anything like that. I am opposed to the appropriation of these traditions in the name of convenience. If you can't make the effort to understand these traditions in the context of their cultural environment, you will not understand them at all!

 

It is absolutely essential that a true Daoist (or whatever -ist you want to be) accept everything that is called for in the Daoist tradition. That includes the cultural baggage it comes with. It is impossible to separate the tradition/culture from the philosophy. So someone who claims to only "care for the philosophy" is not a Daoist, despite their wishful thinking in that regard.

[Mark Saltveit]

So if you like Goethe, you have to like Nazis, right?

[zerostao]

either way Taoism is spreading thru the west.

it is the wish of Tao that this is so.

there will always be purists, traditionalists,

there will also be pioneers

[dwai]

So if you like Goethe, you have to like Nazis, right?

If Goethe was a result of nazi philosophy then you would by association. Or you would not like Goethe...

 

 

However your analogy could be misinterpreted as your equating the tradition and culture of its origin (daoism) being identical somehow to nazis?

 

 

Edited January 29, 2013 by dwai

[dwai]

either way Taoism is spreading thru the west.

it is the wish of Tao that this is so.

there will always be purists, traditionalists,

there will also be pioneers

 

But care must be taken to ensure we aren't guilty of appropriation and digestion.

 

Someone once made an interesting observation (i've taken the liberty to articulate their more erudite statement as follows) :

 

If a lion eats deer could we call that lionist deerism?

 

Sure the lion gains nutrition from the deer. But what part of the deer remains ? And the by-product of such consumption inevitably is something rather undesirable (fecal matter)...