Takaaki's "American Taoism"

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Makes no sense to pin this materialist side on the West when so many Chinese people use Taoism simply as a means to money, using Feng Shui to bring money into the house, creating Buddha statues with money around them to bring in money, having Buddhist or Taoist shrines at the entranceway to businesses.

 

Seems that the most common usage of Daoism, in the way that it is just a part of the fabric of Chinese culture, is that it is used to bring fortune, money, success, luck, etc.. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used to bring success in all aspects of life, but this is more common to Chinese familarity with Taoism than it is for Westerners.

 

Seems it is more common that the few Westerners who partially involve Daoism in their lives do so for philosophical and moral guidance, whereas it is most common that Chinese who partially involve Daoism in their lives use it merely for luck in money, business, etc., with little to no knowledge of Daoist writing other than the cross overs from Confucianism, or Buddhism.

 

To paint Westerners as having the materialist relationship to Taoism here would be a hard sell, here or any Chinatown Feng Shui shop.

[surfingbudda]

 

In fact, I would prefer to take the ism out and just say that Tao practices me.

 

 

worth repeating

[zerostao]

But if the core is truth, why can't there be a Taoist Buddhist, a Taoist Christian, a Taoist ANYTHING? How many have thought along this pattern? In other words a Christian Mystic that allows Wu Wei is doing the same thing that a Taoist does, is she not? He/she is dancing to the same pattern, is he/she not? In that sense, I am a Taoist Christian Buddhist Zoroastrian Zen Shaman. In other words the universal truth from anything HAS to be the same IF it is truth.

 

agreed, but your title seems a bit long and i will still continue to call you yamu, if that is ok?

Edited February 1, 2013 by zerostao

[zerostao]

Anarchist? You really think so? Sounds awful. What are we rebelling against? I thought the right Way was one of absolute order.

actually lao tzu says sth like when more laws are enacted the result is more criminals

and if govt leave folks alone they behave better

[三江源]

My opinion is as follows:

Daoism is not part of Chinese culture. The Chinese version of the Dao De Jing is part of Chinese culture and it is indeed a Chinese cultural artifact. The English version of the Dao De Jing is part of western culture and a western cultural artifact.

 

My definition of the Taoist in "American Taoist" has nothing to do with Chinese culture but everything to do with that free primal human quality the Chinese Tao Te Ching speaks to.

 

America, land of the free, does it her own way, namely, the American way - MY WAY. So, if I am of this wonderful American culture, why look elsewhere to get inspired to be free? Why not go American? It's still the same Dao

 

 

The wave is part of the sea. Chinese daoism is part of the dao.

 

The bit about america being the land of the free I am quite unclear about, much as I love and adore the Elvis King.

[Ya Mu]

But if the core is truth, why can't there be a Taoist Buddhist, a Taoist Christian, a Taoist ANYTHING? How many have thought along this pattern? In other words a Christian Mystic that allows Wu Wei is doing the same thing that a Taoist does, is she not? He/she is dancing to the same pattern, is he/she not? In that sense, I am a Taoist Christian Buddhist Zoroastrian Zen Shaman. In other words the universal truth from anything HAS to be the same IF it is truth.

 

agreed, but your title seems a bit long and i will still continue to call you yamu, if that is ok?

Hei Yu works too

[Friend]

Edited March 29, 2013 by Friend

[ChiDragon]

Makes no sense to pin this materialist side on the West when so many Chinese people use Taoism simply as a means to money, using Feng Shui to bring money into the house, creating Buddha statues with money around them to bring in money, having Buddhist or Taoist shrines at the entranceway to businesses.

 

Have you ever heard of pseudo-Taoism.....???....

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Have you ever heard of pseudo-Taoism.....???....

 

No, but it sounds like I've seen it..

[ChiDragon]

No, but it sounds like I've seen it..

 

"so many Chinese people use Taoism simply as a means to money, using Feng Shui to bring money into the house, creating Buddha statues with money around them to bring in money, having Buddhist or Taoist shrines at the entranceway to businesses."

 

I hope we meant this part. I see how things could be easily misunderstood.........

 

 

Edited February 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Have you ever heard of pseudo-Taoism.....???....

(I can't let this opportunity pass.)

 

No, but I have heard of Paper Dragons.

[Birch]

Makes no sense to pin this materialist side on the West when so many Chinese people use Taoism simply as a means to money, using Feng Shui to bring money into the house, creating Buddha statues with money around them to bring in money, having Buddhist or Taoist shrines at the entranceway to businesses.

 

Seems that the most common usage of Daoism, in the way that it is just a part of the fabric of Chinese culture, is that it is used to bring fortune, money, success, luck, etc.. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used to bring success in all aspects of life, but this is more common to Chinese familarity with Taoism than it is for Westerners.

 

Seems it is more common that the few Westerners who partially involve Daoism in their lives do so for philosophical and moral guidance, whereas it is most common that Chinese who partially involve Daoism in their lives use it merely for luck in money, business, etc., with little to no knowledge of Daoist writing other than the cross overs from Confucianism, or Buddhism.

 

To paint Westerners as having the materialist relationship to Taoism here would be a hard sell, here or any Chinatown Feng Shui shop.

 

Donald Trump used Feng Shui on his Trump Tower apparently, as do many banking institutions. Why bother building a very big elaborate building when most of your transactions are immaterial?

[ChiDragon]

Donald Trump used Feng Shui on his Trump Tower apparently, as do many banking institutions. Why bother building a very big elaborate building when most of your transactions are immaterial?

 

So is the Capitol of California, in Sacramental, was used Feng Shui by hiring a Chinese Feng Shui Master Eagle Wong. He recruited many disciples in Southern California.

Edited February 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

There is nothing that is false unless one employs expectations which arent fulfilled so there is no pseudo Taoism unless one defines taoism to be some particular category or behavior pattern , it is simply a judgement- empty of superior validity, on the other hand as Mencius described , words do have meanings that are communally arrived at , conjointly used and so for the purposes of discussion one can use a term like Taoist describing that which fits the agreed upon definition from that which does not.

Generally speaking ,most folks are going to define themselves as being part of groups they do wish to be in

and describe others of differing opinions as being "not included".

It would be nice if all could just accept the rest as being part of a family of beliefs so one can enjoy the interests of all the divergent opinions without having to exclude each other or find lack of merit in each diversion from ones own outlook.

If all could find pleasure in that one is not the same person as ones brother ,, that would be expedient , it would be looking for a harmony rather than homogenaity. Without the abstraction there is no exclusion or inclusion .. there are just all the individuals.

[ChiDragon]

IMMHO If there is a distinction that was mentioned by someone, obviously, there are some discrepancies in the thinking among a group of people causing a split. Unless, all the people that are coming from the same background.

[Stosh]

^{There are distinctions , as many as folks care to list}

^{finding common thread can also be elusive}

^{From my family I learn , sometimes I chuckle , sometimes I wish I could bestow}

 

^{sometimes I think to myself}

^{Thats just what I would expect him to say , go get em'}

^{though I wouldnt be saying it myself}

^{or I think that what my brother said -is just the ticket! which I didnt have.}

 

^{circumstance says if we're fit}

^{of body ,soul , or even wit}

^{and so my solutions arent always}

^{exactly right for all situations}

 

^{Have a nice weekend , carry the torch high}

Edited February 2, 2013 by Stosh

[dwai]

Lets build a new Way

Some people say

That's all right

If you know the way

 

The top of the mountain

shows us everything around

As far as the eyes can see

The grandest road From that up high

Ends up looking tiny

 

There are many ways to the top

And every step there is another stop

Stops that tell tales of a traveller or two

Who have taken the road Long before you

 

Though there might be a few Less trodden upon

Even those I'm afraid Are not un-gone

You can see the faintest trail If you stop to see

The steps of a traveller On the road to infinity

 

What claim do we have to it

When there's no untrodden path?

We are but travelers of a less worn path

We can only walk And sing and dance at each stop

A smile on our faces

And with hearts that hop

 

At the hopes of an encounter

On that less traveled path

With truth that will reveal The stories untold

As before our hearts Infinity unfolds

Edited February 2, 2013 by dwai

[takaaki]

Makes no sense to pin this materialist side on the West when so many Chinese people use Taoism simply as a means to money, using Feng Shui to bring money into the house, creating Buddha statues with money around them to bring in money, having Buddhist or Taoist shrines at the entranceway to businesses.

 

To paint Westerners as having the materialist relationship to Taoism here would be a hard sell, here or any Chinatown Feng Shui shop.

 

Who are you referring to, Harmonious? Which post painted westerners as having the materialist relationship?

 

Seems that the most common usage of Daoism, in the way that it is just a part of the fabric of Chinese culture, is that it is used to bring fortune, money, success, luck, etc.. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used to bring success in all aspects of life, but this is more common to Chinese familarity with Taoism than it is for Westerners. .

 

Chinese culture spans the whole Chinese social fabric - from scholars right at the top of the social structure to the merchant class at the bottom.

 

The western equivalent of the Chinese merchant class includes (some but not all) Forbes' list of billionaires to the petty traders in the flea markets of London, Paris and New York.

 

The equivalent of the Chinese scholar class in the west is non-existent. You read this right and I repeat - non-existent. All western academicians including Albert Einstein, Nobel Laureates teaching in top American universities at Harvard or University of Chicago right down to research fellows with a PhD are, at best, artisans who love their work At worst, they are merchants trading their credentials, knowledge and skills for money.

 

Seems it is more common that the few Westerners who partially involve Daoism in their lives do so for philosophical and moral guidance, whereas it is most common that Chinese who partially involve Daoism in their lives use it merely for luck in money, business, etc., with little to no knowledge of Daoist writing other than the cross overs from Confucianism, or Buddhism.

 

Daoism, in used by the Chinese for spiritual and materialistic reasons mainly of the kind you cited.

 

In the case of the westerners, their Daoism is mainly for spiritual reasons only.

 

While the Chinese Daoist's spirituality is religious in nature, the westerner's Daoist spirituality is for mental stimulation (philosophy) and self-deception (morality).

Edited February 2, 2013 by takaaki

[takaaki]

 

So is the Capitol of California, in Sacramental, was used Feng Shui by hiring a Chinese Feng Shui Master Eagle Wong. He recruited many disciples in Southern California.

 

Feng Shui, is not pure superstition. The wisdom of its recommendation in both the siting of structures and their interior layouts has been spotted by top western architects. For example, a house at a T-Junction has bad Feng Shui. Westerners who don't care for this silliness soon find their houses destroyed by trucks and semis with faulty brakes or faulty drivers careening past the T-Junction right into their abodes.

 

Another Feng Shui recommendation: don't stand too close to the edge of the platform while waiting for your train.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Which post painted westerners as having the materialist relationship?

 

Post #2. Your quotation assumed that some new "American" version of Taoism needed to be created to embody an individualist and avaricious (look it up for ESLs) bent. My point is that these things exist in China already with those who have a superficial interest in things Taoist.

 

The other point was comparing those with a superficial interest (meaning not of depth, rather than materialistic) in the East and West. The western superficial interest is more commonly a philosophical one without going very deep into it, while the Eastern superfical interest is mostly to do with using Taoist means to attract wealth.

 

Thus, your self-serving version of Taoism already exists and needs no label of "American" for you to practice it. The problem however, is that Taoism is very altruistic and this has nothing to do with Taoism, other than in a few words or appearances. Perhaps you could say it has a few influences from Taoism, but you would be entirely mistaken to think that Taoism has no interest in serving the greater good. It is entirely about serving the greater good, much as the function of the Taoist sage is to serve the greater good. The first 25 paragraphs of the Dao De Jing show this clearly.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

In the case of the westerners, their Daoism is mainly for spiritual reasons only.

Well, you missed one of the Western folks - me.

 

My Taoism is a guide for living my life as close to what is natural for me as possible in this material world.

 

I know nearly nothing about the spiritual, religious or shamanic aspects of Taoism as they are of no value to me.

[takaaki]

Which post painted westerners as having the materialist relationship?

 

Post #2. Your quotation assumed that some new "American" version of Taoism needed to be created to embody an individualist and avaricious (look it up for ESLs) bent. My point is that these things exist in China already with those who have a superficial interest in things Taoist.

 

Are you telling me that my call for self-determination, self-reliance, love of abundance and striving to be first in bringing about a better world amount to nothing more than selfish greed of the American kind? I need to correct your perception.

 

First of all, I am not trying to create the American Taoist. This fella already exists in each one of us who dares to live free. Every baby embodies this natural freedom-loving quality; it instinctively reaches out to grab what it wants and screams and howls until it gets its way. "Ah! It would become a brat and, later, a brute if it isn't taught Daoist compassion, frugality and not striving to be first," you'd say.

 

The other point was comparing those with a superficial interest (meaning not of depth, rather than materialistic) in the East and West. The western superficial interest is more commonly a philosophical one without going very deep into it, while the Eastern superfical interest is mostly to do with using Taoist means to attract wealth.

 

Ours is a material reality. And the role of the mind is to tend to the body. This is the Way. It is neither superficial nor deep.

 

Thus, your self-serving version of Taoism already exists and needs no label of "American" for you to practice it. The problem however, is that Taoism is very altruistic and this has nothing to do with Taoism, other than in a few words or appearances. Perhaps you could say it has a few influences from Taoism, but you would be entirely mistaken to think that Taoism has no interest in serving the greater good. It is entirely about serving the greater good, much as the function of the Taoist sage is to serve the greater good. The first 25 paragraphs of the Dao De Jing show this clearly.

 

What you call my self-serving version of Taoism is not what you think it is. I can clarify it but won't preach it. I am not an evangelist; besides, the American Taoist is born, not made. You have the right to your version.

[takaaki]

Well, you missed one of the Western folks - me.

 

My Taoism is a guide for living my life as close to what is natural for me as possible in this material world.

 

I know nearly nothing about the spiritual, religious or shamanic aspects of Taoism as they are of no value to me.

 

You know what? The great thing about being an American Taoist is that you can not know that you are one. You think you are just one of the western folks. Now, this is true humility. When you truly know that you are being humble, then you are just acting the part.

[takaaki]

The wave is part of the sea. Chinese daoism is part of the dao.

 

Chinese Daoism is part of the Dao that can be told by the Chinese.

 

Western Daoism is part of the Dao that can be told by westerners.

 

The bit about america being the land of the free I am quite unclear about, much as I love and adore the Elvis King.

 

The reason why you are unclear about America being the land of the free is because it is the American Dream. American citizenship gives you the opportunity to realize that dream. To make it happen, you need the Three Treasures of the American Taoist: self-reliance, love of abundance, and dare to be first in the world.

 

Since you love him, here is the King and his dream:

 

Edited February 2, 2013 by takaaki

[Marblehead]

You know what? The great thing about being an American Taoist is that you can not know that you are one. You think you are just one of the western folks. Now, this is true humility. When you truly know that you are being humble, then you are just acting the part.

Hehehe. I must say, you have it together much more than I thought you did when we first met.