Takaaki's "American Taoism"

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Are you telling me that my call for self-determination, self-reliance, love of abundance and striving to be first in bringing about a better world amount to nothing more than selfish greed of the American kind? I need to correct your perception.

 

When you put it this way there is no need to branch off. This is not discordant to Taoism.

 

First of all, I am not trying to create the American Taoist. This fella already exists in each one of us who dares to live free. Every baby embodies this natural freedom-loving quality; it instinctively reaches out to grab what it wants and screams and howls until it gets its way. "Ah! It would become a brat and, later, a brute if it isn't taught Daoist compassion, frugality and not striving to be first," you'd say.

 

A person does need to learn to balance themselves so that their desires don't burn them up and tear them down, creating a fool that destroys everything within and around them, yes this is true. It doesn't mean people shouldn't strive to create abundance. There is nothing wrong with abundance, though it might pose problems for people who want to learn how to shed desires is search for true inner contentment. This path is a choice for Taoists, not a filial obligation to anyone or anything else.

 

I get the impression from the assumptions you've made about the limitations of Taoism that you have not delved very deeply into it even philosophically. Perhaps you should learn more about it before deciding that the model needs any alterations. I think you will find that these things you want are not at odds with true Taoist philosophy when you go beyond the surface of common quotations.

 

The problem seems to be that you have equated the monastic path with the laymen path. A Taoist monk will not live the same as a laymen, nor a laymen the same as the monk.

 

You mention self-determination, self-reliance, and love of abundance.

 

Starting with self-determination: A Taoist does not let arbitrary social convention determine his path, for if he did it would be based mostly on anger, greed, jealously, envy, and fear, rather than courage, generosity, confidence, and good-will.

 

A Taoist strives for what could be called sustainable abundance. He or she perfects the self and actions in order to avoid repurcussions of negative actions and emotions. However, abundance only allows for more generosity and time for good-will to others. These are the important things as any person on their death bed will say that what they want most is to be with their family and friends - this is the gold, the silver, and the jewels of life, the rest is just packaging.

 

As for self-reliance, this is a large part of the purpose for the physical disciplines - so that one can be strong and self-reliant in order to accomplish what needs to be done both internally and externally.

 

No need to be American.. just dive deeper into the waters sir!

Edited February 2, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dwai]

 

You know what? The great thing about being an American Taoist is that you can not know that you are one. You think you are just one of the western folks. Now, this is true humility. When you truly know that you are being humble, then you are just acting the part.

 

That's just wrong. If you follow dao then just do so. I don't understand this overwhelming need to subsume everything into an American identity.

 

Sometimes you have to let things be the way they are...any attempts to "transform" them ends up creating a mess.

 

And the so calls three treasures are not exclusive to America (as In the us)...every culture has them in different guises.

 

 

[Aaron]

Okay, so I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. I can see that Taakaki is just saying what he is saying in an attempt to insult America, but apparently other people are missing this. His comments are meant to point out that American's are not Taoist, that their actions are contrary to Taoism, and essentially that they are greedy, self-serving, egoists. (He apparently dislikes American "battleaxe" woman especially, a connotation that is extremely negative in Japanese and Asian cultures.)

 

I think the inability to read between the lines is allowing Taakaki to get the attention he wants, but certainly doesn't warrant or deserve. Anyone can go back and read his posts and see the intent, just be aware of the actual underlying message here. Fascists practice the same philosophy, as did the Emperor of Japan when he justified the Rape of Nanking. It's a common tactic that allows one to project a negative image on other by exemplifying those characteristics as being virtues, or lesser virtues, that essentially label these people as being less than others without directly insulting them.

 

I hope that clarifies what's going on. If you still want to play his game, feel free. I'm certain some people will enjoy and agree with his statements.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Aaron

[Mark Saltveit]

In other words, Takaaki's a troll? Sounds about right.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Trolls are gifts of great secrets in disguises

[ChiDragon]

Why is anything that was leaning toward the yin-side was considered to be a "troll". If there is yin, then, there is yang. Why are we so sensitive about hearing something that is being in the negative view a little bit.....??? If we only want to hear what we want to hear or just one side of the story all the time, then, everything will become stagnate.

Edited February 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Mark Saltveit]

I'm all for negativity, in case that's not apparent. :-) When it's appropriate. But I'm also for honesty and sincerity.

 

If Takaaki wants to ridicule American Daoists, s/he should have the integrity to just come out and say it. Creating a "character" that's a straw man idiot American is passive-aggressive and only works if the character is dead-on accurate, which Takaaki's is certainly not. (It comes off more like a fundamentalist Southern prosperity gospel preacher who suddenly decided to switch teams to Daoism.)

 

That's probably just me being a typically yang American male, though.

[Marblehead]

Well, I am an American, and I try my best to follow the Way of Tao. Therefore I still hold that calling myself an American Taoist is a valid label.

 

But back to that train I was riding with Takaaki, the last thing I mentioned was holding the Three Treasures dear to one's heart, I will continue with, after the Three Treasures are accepted into one's life and they are practiced diligently the next step is to return to the TTC, replace one's self into the shoes of the Ruler and interact with others in that atmosphere, then, replace one's self with the Sage and try to establish the characteristics of the Sage as one's own characteristics.

 

Now, if one follows the Way of Tao one could be labelled a Taoist. Doesn't matter where on this planet that person lives.

 

I do not accept Takaaki's ideal of "More, more, more". One of the most important lesson from Lao Tzu is to know when one has enough.

[ChiDragon]

Feng Shui, is not pure superstition. The wisdom of its recommendation in both the siting of structures and their interior layouts has been spotted by top western architects. For example, a house at a T-Junction has bad Feng Shui. Westerners who don't care for this silliness soon find their houses destroyed by trucks and semis with faulty brakes or faulty drivers careening past the T-Junction right into their abodes.

 

Another Feng Shui recommendation: don't stand too close to the edge of the platform while waiting for your train.

 

Yes, I agree. Feng Shui was started as an environmental science where the living quarters were made to be as comfortable as possible. Somehow, people start using the Ba Gua(八卦) and Lo Shu(洛書) to formulate some Feng Shui formulas to foresee the condition of the dwelling based on the birthday of the individual owner. Thus I would say that Feng Shi is not pure superstition nor pure science but also psychology. If something in a dwelling causing a psychological problem and discomfort, then, it was definitely considered to be a Feng Shui problem.

 

"Another Feng Shui recommendation: don't stand too close to the edge of the platform while waiting for your train."

This is obviously a hazardous environmental issue.

[ChiDragon]

Well, I am an American, and I try my best to follow the Way of Tao. Therefore I still hold that calling myself an American Taoist is a valid label.

 

Yes, you are an American Taoist because you do quarrel, and kill for food as a soldier.

 

To me. Meridian_Man is Taoist because he does not quarrel. Period.

[Marblehead]

Yes, you are an American Taoist because you do quarrel, and kill for food as a soldier.

 

To me. Meridian_Man is Taoist because he does not quarrel. Period.

Chuang Tzu killed fish to eat. He also ate goose. Chuang Tzu quarrelled. No, he wasn't a soldier. He probably had nothing to fight for.

 

Therefore, Chuang Tzu was an American Taoist.

[Mark Saltveit]

Yes, you are an American Taoist because you do quarrel, and kill for food as a soldier. To me. Meridian_Man is Taoist because he does not quarrel. Period.

 

Aren't you quarreling with Marblehead right there? :-)

[Marblehead]

Aren't you quarreling with Marblehead right there? :-)

He loves to quarrel. No, I won't judge him for that.

[ChiDragon]

Chuang Tzu quarrelled. No, he wasn't a soldier. He probably had nothing to fight for.

 

Therefore, Chuang Tzu was an American Taoist.

 

Chuang Tzu does not quarrel. He says: "why should I be wasting my breath arguing something for nothing, I rather enjoy life with silence and have a peace of mind." Chuang Tzu was a Chinese Taoist.......!!!

[Marblehead]

 

Chuang Tzu does not quarrel. He says: "why should I be wasting my breath arguing something for nothing, I rather enjoy life with silence and have a peace of mind." Chuang Tzu was a Chinese Taoist.......!!!

Do I need to post quotes where he remarked in a quarrelling manner?

 

And your quote cannot be found in Burton Watson's translation of The Chuang Tzu. You pulled that out of your butt, right?

[ChiDragon]

Aren't you quarreling with Marblehead right there? :-)

 

He loves to quarrel. No, I won't judge him for that.

 

We are not quarreling; we are just teasing each other with Taoist thoughts from time to time to kill time.

[Marblehead]

We are not quarreling; we are just teasing each other with Taoist thoughts from time to time to kill time.

Hehehe. And trying to keep each other honest.

[zerostao]

Therefore, Chuang Tzu was an American Taoist.

wow i have some catching up to do on this thread hehehehe

American Taoist gets a strong endorsement there!

[ChiDragon]

Do I need to post quotes where he remarked in a quarrelling manner?

 

And your quote cannot be found in Burton Watson's translation of The Chuang Tzu. You pulled that out of your butt, right?

 

No, that was Zhuang Tze's whole philosophy to have an enjoyable life without quarrel. Maybe I can dig something up for you......!!!

[Marblehead]

 

No, that was Zhuang Tze's whole philosophy to have an enjoyable life without quarrel. Maybe I can dig something up for you......!!!

I'm not arguing the validity of the summary of his philosophy that you put in quotes. I'm suggesting that he didn't say it based on Burton Watson's translation.

[ChiDragon]

I'm not arguing the validity of the summary of his philosophy that you put in quotes. I'm suggesting that he didn't say it based on Burton Watson's translation.

 

Okay, is Watson an American Taoist.......???

[dawei]

I am kind of curious as to the need to label others. It seems that some want to make everyone from the west an American Taoist, whether they consider themselves Taoist or not.

 

I recall John Chang being asked by his biographer if he was Daoist and he emphatically said NO... yet the biographer felt compelled to subtitle the book to include the word 'Taoist'...

 

It would seem to me that when others try to assign a label to others, they are doing at their own need. And even if someone never claimed such a label, it is put forth.

 

As for ZZ... he was one quarreling bastard. His disagreements ran deep...

[Marblehead]

 

Okay, is Watson an American Taoist.......???

I have no freakin' idea! Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

I am kind of curious as to the need to label others. It seems that some want to make everyone from the west an American Taoist, whether they consider themselves Taoist or not.

 

I recall John Chang being asked by his biographer if he was Daoist and he emphatically said NO... yet the biographer felt compelled to subtitle the book to include the word 'Taoist'...

 

It would seem to me that when others try to assign a label to others, they are doing at their own need. And even if someone never claimed such a label, it is put forth.

Yeah, I put labels on myself for a reason. The labels others put on me don't mean all that much although I appreciate the fact that they took the time to consider what they understood about me.

 

As for ZZ... he was one quarreling bastard. His disagreements ran deep...

You are so right. And he wasn't anyone's fool.

[ChiDragon]

You are so right. And he wasn't anyone's fool.

 

By definition of "quarrel": an angry argument or disagreement between people, often about a personal matter.

 

Have we seen anything that says Zhuang Tze was angry in discussing any personal matters. Most of the time he was presenting his philosophy in a parable by given his reasons at his best. Was that considered to be a quarrel....???